80611 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Origin is down for everyone I think

[MegumiAzusa]

Restrider wrote...

Anyone else problems to go online on Origin?

Everyone has.

[AresKeith]

Its actually EA servers period

[MegumiAzusa]

Krimzie wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I am not bying the whole Leviathans are the good guys/ told us everything. If the Citdal dlc is real/ Bioware is working on. Then you do realize that maybe we will go to the Reaper home world, and find out how they really came to be.

I would love this. Actually, I'd even settle for a comic. I'm not entirely convinced that the Leviathans didn't try to synthesize with their machines on purpose -- for immortality, and for ultimate dominance over synethetics and organics alike. The directive they programmed the Reaper construct with is a good, logical, and infinite (potentially) cover for what is ultimately a desire to remain Apex, but I'm sure they didn't expect Harbinger to in turn wipe out the rest of the organic Leviathans that weren't part of his hybrid makeup. The danger of absolutes in programming.

I think the Reaper construct cannot seem to challenge the logic of its own programming because it's so circular! The construct will keep struggling to find a solution to its programmed paradigm that synthetics will always destroy organics. And like that meme, it's answer is to destroy organics before synthetics can destroy organics, because as Reapers, they're synthetics. It's a goofy meme but the idea behind it makes sense -- with every cycle, they're proving the paradigm that drives their own directive, so there's never a reason to challenge the logic. Self-fulfilled prophecy, cycle after the cycle.

Whoever programmed it is one clever bastard of a Leviathan. And I want to know about it.

The problem here is that the Reapers themselves don't see it that way. They are preserving it. Also they don't see themselves as pure synthetics, which is why they are out of the equation in the first place. Also Leviathans would if unchallenged by the Reapers dominate every other race, they are in no way shown as the good guys. "Tribute does not flow from a dead race." or something.
For me Leviathan gives some other questions:
If you let the Batarian go in bdts he tells you in ME3 the Leviathan of Dis indoctrinated the researches which in turn helped the Reapers. We know the Leviathans say the cycle must continue, but it also shows they are actively helping.
If the Leviathans are actually seeking synthesis they could let her go because they see what could come.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 10 décembre 2012 - 07:53 .

[401 Kill]

Pro tip: If you have any project to complete, put in ME3 music and it will make it "intense"!

[Krimzie]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I am not bying the whole Leviathans are the good guys/ told us everything. If the Citdal dlc is real/ Bioware is working on. Then you do realize that maybe we will go to the Reaper home world, and find out how they really came to be.

I would love this. Actually, I'd even settle for a comic. I'm not entirely convinced that the Leviathans didn't try to synthesize with their machines on purpose -- for immortality, and for ultimate dominance over synethetics and organics alike. The directive they programmed the Reaper construct with is a good, logical, and infinite (potentially) cover for what is ultimately a desire to remain Apex, but I'm sure they didn't expect Harbinger to in turn wipe out the rest of the organic Leviathans that weren't part of his hybrid makeup. The danger of absolutes in programming.

I think the Reaper construct cannot seem to challenge the logic of its own programming because it's so circular! The construct will keep struggling to find a solution to its programmed paradigm that synthetics will always destroy organics. And like that meme, it's answer is to destroy organics before synthetics can destroy organics, because as Reapers, they're synthetics. It's a goofy meme but the idea behind it makes sense -- with every cycle, they're proving the paradigm that drives their own directive, so there's never a reason to challenge the logic. Self-fulfilled prophecy, cycle after the cycle.

Whoever programmed it is one clever bastard of a Leviathan. And I want to know about it.

The problem here is that the Reapers themselves don't see it that way. They are preserving it. Also they don't see themselves as pure synthetics, which is why they are out of the equation in the first place. Also Leviathans would if unchallenged by the Reapers dominate every other race, they are in no way shown as the good guys. "Tribute does not flow from a dead race." or something.

At the very least, Harbinger is quite aware he's destroying things, and even if he sees his destruction as a means of ascension, he announces his own slaughter. "Leave the dead where they fall," "We will end you," "take what is useful, destroy the rest," "they are vermin," etc. 

Additionally, IMO, I think that what the Reapers believe they are doing is irrelevant to the ulterior motive of the Leviathans. And I agree with you, the Levis are definitely not good guys.

For me Leviathan gives some other questions:
If you let the Batarian go in bdts he tells you in ME3 the Leviathan of Dis indoctrinated the researches which in turn helped the Reapers. We know the Leviathans say the cycle must continue, but it also shows they are actively helping.

Interesting point! I forgot about that. If there is a similarity between how the Levis and Reapers indoctrinate (and I'm sure there is, on some level), I wouldn't be surprised if they could share thralls. In fact, I think they do in Leviathan DLC -- the Levi makes the brutes beat each other up. 

Modifié par Krimzie, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:02 .

[Big_Boss9]

The Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper corpse.

[MegumiAzusa]

Krimzie wrote...

For me Leviathan gives some other questions:
If you let the Batarian go in bdts he tells you in ME3 the Leviathan of Dis indoctrinated the researches which in turn helped the Reapers. We know the Leviathans say the cycle must continue, but it also shows they are actively helping.

Interesting point! I forgot about that. If there is a similarity between how the Levis and Reapers indoctrinate (and I'm sure there is, on some level), I wouldn't be surprised if they could share thralls. In fact, I think they do in Leviathan DLC -- the Levi makes the brutes beat each other up.

Which is not sharing but assuming direct control. As Leviathans indoctrination works a bit different they shouldn't be shared. Also if it were they wouldn't need their balls of steel.

[MegumiAzusa]

Big_Boss9 wrote...

The Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper corpse.

Which is described as fully organic. Also the DLC says differently.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[Big_Boss9]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

The Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper corpse.

Which is described as fully organic. Also the DLC says differently.

No, it's described as "the remains of a genetically engineered starship". One of the conversations between Hackett and Bryson you can listen to in the Leviathan DLC specifically refer to the Leviathan of Dis as a Reaper corpse and that Bryson's real interest in it is the being that killed it, a Leviathan. To be fair, I think the nomenclature was unnecessarily confusing.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

The Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper corpse.

Which is described as fully organic. Also the DLC says differently.

There's two "Leviathan of Dis". The Reaper corpse that the Batarians studied and the Leviathan(aka the "true" Leviathan of Dis)

[Krimzie]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

For me Leviathan gives some other questions:
If you let the Batarian go in bdts he tells you in ME3 the Leviathan of Dis indoctrinated the researches which in turn helped the Reapers. We know the Leviathans say the cycle must continue, but it also shows they are actively helping.

Interesting point! I forgot about that. If there is a similarity between how the Levis and Reapers indoctrinate (and I'm sure there is, on some level), I wouldn't be surprised if they could share thralls. In fact, I think they do in Leviathan DLC -- the Levi makes the brutes beat each other up.

Which is not sharing but assuming direct control. As Leviathans indoctrination works a bit different they shouldn't be shared. Also if it were they wouldn't need their balls of steel.

PFFFFTCH, you said balls of steel. Lawl.

I should have used a different word than "share." What I mean is that Reapers and Levis are shown to be able to interchangably control a subject -- once the mind control is established, the subject can be puppeted by either party. Which all still proves your point that they are capable of helping the Reapers just as they are capable (or so we hope) of helping Shepard.

[RavenEyry]

Notably there are three Jacobs in the ME universe. More realistic than never repeating names but can be confusing like leviathans.

[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

Notably there are three Jacobs in the ME universe. More realistic than never repeating names but can be confusing like leviathans.

And up to 2 Shepards + a VI.

[MegumiAzusa]

Krimzie wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

For me Leviathan gives some other questions:
If you let the Batarian go in bdts he tells you in ME3 the Leviathan of Dis indoctrinated the researches which in turn helped the Reapers. We know the Leviathans say the cycle must continue, but it also shows they are actively helping.

Interesting point! I forgot about that. If there is a similarity between how the Levis and Reapers indoctrinate (and I'm sure there is, on some level), I wouldn't be surprised if they could share thralls. In fact, I think they do in Leviathan DLC -- the Levi makes the brutes beat each other up.

Which is not sharing but assuming direct control. As Leviathans indoctrination works a bit different they shouldn't be shared. Also if it were they wouldn't need their balls of steel.

PFFFFTCH, you said balls of steel. Lawl.

I should have used a different word than "share." What I mean is that Reapers and Levis are shown to be able to interchangably control a subject -- once the mind control is established, the subject can be puppeted by either party. Which all still proves your point that they are capable of helping the Reapers just as they are capable (or so we hope) of helping Shepard.

I have to disagree here as to control a subject from the other party they have to basically override their control.

[MegumiAzusa]

Also repost for great injustice!

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So after starting my presumably failshep playthrough I like to bring up some points I did some thousand pages ago.

Something is not right with the Prothean beacon or where it was found. The place where it was found has that circuitry overlay like we see on Reapers and in Synthesis.
Exhibit A
The beacon itself does not.
Exhibit B

There is also something interesting going on with Eden Prime itself. When the Normandy approaches we see a giant fire.
Exhibit C
We know they try to keep the atmosphere as clean as possible etc, but such a fire would cause quite some fallout.
Ingame we see later Sovereigns footprint, though it would be very strange if it were the same.
Exhibit D

Additionally the beacon has a quite loud hum to it.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I am not bying the whole Leviathans are the good guys/ told us everything. If the Citdal dlc is real/ Bioware is working on. Then you do realize that maybe we will go to the Reaper home world, and find out how they really came to be.

I would love this. Actually, I'd even settle for a comic. I'm not entirely convinced that the Leviathans didn't try to synthesize with their machines on purpose -- for immortality, and for ultimate dominance over synethetics and organics alike. The directive they programmed the Reaper construct with is a good, logical, and infinite (potentially) cover for what is ultimately a desire to remain Apex, but I'm sure they didn't expect Harbinger to in turn wipe out the rest of the organic Leviathans that weren't part of his hybrid makeup. The danger of absolutes in programming.

I think the Reaper construct cannot seem to challenge the logic of its own programming because it's so circular! The construct will keep struggling to find a solution to its programmed paradigm that synthetics will always destroy organics. And like that meme, it's answer is to destroy organics before synthetics can destroy organics, because as Reapers, they're synthetics. It's a goofy meme but the idea behind it makes sense -- with every cycle, they're proving the paradigm that drives their own directive, so there's never a reason to challenge the logic. Self-fulfilled prophecy, cycle after the cycle.

Whoever programmed it is one clever bastard of a Leviathan. And I want to know about it.

The problem here is that the Reapers themselves don't see it that way. They are preserving it. Also they don't see themselves as pure synthetics, which is why they are out of the equation in the first place. Also Leviathans would if unchallenged by the Reapers dominate every other race, they are in no way shown as the good guys. "Tribute does not flow from a dead race." or something.
For me Leviathan gives some other questions:
If you let the Batarian go in bdts he tells you in ME3 the Leviathan of Dis indoctrinated the researches which in turn helped the Reapers. We know the Leviathans say the cycle must continue, but it also shows they are actively helping.
If the Leviathans are actually seeking synthesis they could let her go because they see what could come.

The Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper, not a Leviathan.

The entire premise of the Leviathan DLC is to locate what killed the Leviathan of Dis, not the Leviathan of Dis itself.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:20 .

[dorktainian]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Also repost for great injustice!

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So after starting my presumably failshep playthrough I like to bring up some points I did some thousand pages ago.

Something is not right with the Prothean beacon or where it was found. The place where it was found has that circuitry overlay like we see on Reapers and in Synthesis.
Exhibit A
The beacon itself does not.
Exhibit B

There is also something interesting going on with Eden Prime itself. When the Normandy approaches we see a giant fire.
Exhibit C
We know they try to keep the atmosphere as clean as possible etc, but such a fire would cause quite some fallout.
Ingame we see later Sovereigns footprint, though it would be very strange if it were the same.
Exhibit D

Additionally the beacon has a quite loud hum to it.

 wow that is really interesting

[spotlessvoid]

Megumi:

That circuitry pattern isn't the same specific texture, not sure there's any conclusion to be drawn from it.

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I am not bying the whole Leviathans are the good guys/ told us everything. If the Citdal dlc is real/ Bioware is working on. Then you do realize that maybe we will go to the Reaper home world, and find out how they really came to be.

I would love this. Actually, I'd even settle for a comic. I'm not entirely convinced that the Leviathans didn't try to synthesize with their machines on purpose -- for immortality, and for ultimate dominance over synethetics and organics alike. The directive they programmed the Reaper construct with is a good, logical, and infinite (potentially) cover for what is ultimately a desire to remain Apex, but I'm sure they didn't expect Harbinger to in turn wipe out the rest of the organic Leviathans that weren't part of his hybrid makeup. The danger of absolutes in programming.

I think the Reaper construct cannot seem to challenge the logic of its own programming because it's so circular! The construct will keep struggling to find a solution to its programmed paradigm that synthetics will always destroy organics. And like that meme, it's answer is to destroy organics before synthetics can destroy organics, because as Reapers, they're synthetics. It's a goofy meme but the idea behind it makes sense -- with every cycle, they're proving the paradigm that drives their own directive, so there's never a reason to challenge the logic. Self-fulfilled prophecy, cycle after the cycle.

Whoever programmed it is one clever bastard of a Leviathan. And I want to know about it.

The problem here is that the Reapers themselves don't see it that way. They are preserving it. Also they don't see themselves as pure synthetics, which is why they are out of the equation in the first place. Also Leviathans would if unchallenged by the Reapers dominate every other race, they are in no way shown as the good guys. "Tribute does not flow from a dead race." or something.
For me Leviathan gives some other questions:
If you let the Batarian go in bdts he tells you in ME3 the Leviathan of Dis indoctrinated the researches which in turn helped the Reapers. We know the Leviathans say the cycle must continue, but it also shows they are actively helping.
If the Leviathans are actually seeking synthesis they could let her go because they see what could come.

The Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper, not a Leviathan.

The entire premise of the Leviathan DLC is to locate what killed the Leviathan of Dis, not the Leviathan of Dis itself.

I still can't see how it's impossible to assume the Leviathan of Dis is a Leviathan and a Reaper killed it, but because of the Batarians removing it it got mixed up and they luckily found a hint to the Leviathans?

[MegumiAzusa]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Megumi:

That circuitry pattern isn't the same specific texture, not sure there's any conclusion to be drawn from it.

I never said it were the same texture. I said it looks the same. You also cannot tell if the texture in ME3 is basically an "upgrade" (the ME1 texture was highly repetitive). What you can say is that circuits on stone is strange especially if it's not on the technology itself.

[RavenEyry]

About the fire on Eden Prime: It seems the reapers always spread that somehow. Earth and Palaven look similar, but on a larger scale.

[The Heretic of Time]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I am not bying the whole Leviathans are the good guys/ told us everything. If the Citdal dlc is real/ Bioware is working on. Then you do realize that maybe we will go to the Reaper home world, and find out how they really came to be.

I would love this. Actually, I'd even settle for a comic. I'm not entirely convinced that the Leviathans didn't try to synthesize with their machines on purpose -- for immortality, and for ultimate dominance over synethetics and organics alike. The directive they programmed the Reaper construct with is a good, logical, and infinite (potentially) cover for what is ultimately a desire to remain Apex, but I'm sure they didn't expect Harbinger to in turn wipe out the rest of the organic Leviathans that weren't part of his hybrid makeup. The danger of absolutes in programming.

I think the Reaper construct cannot seem to challenge the logic of its own programming because it's so circular! The construct will keep struggling to find a solution to its programmed paradigm that synthetics will always destroy organics. And like that meme, it's answer is to destroy organics before synthetics can destroy organics, because as Reapers, they're synthetics. It's a goofy meme but the idea behind it makes sense -- with every cycle, they're proving the paradigm that drives their own directive, so there's never a reason to challenge the logic. Self-fulfilled prophecy, cycle after the cycle.

Whoever programmed it is one clever bastard of a Leviathan. And I want to know about it.

The problem here is that the Reapers themselves don't see it that way. They are preserving it. Also they don't see themselves as pure synthetics, which is why they are out of the equation in the first place. Also Leviathans would if unchallenged by the Reapers dominate every other race, they are in no way shown as the good guys. "Tribute does not flow from a dead race." or something.
For me Leviathan gives some other questions:
If you let the Batarian go in bdts he tells you in ME3 the Leviathan of Dis indoctrinated the researches which in turn helped the Reapers. We know the Leviathans say the cycle must continue, but it also shows they are actively helping.
If the Leviathans are actually seeking synthesis they could let her go because they see what could come.

The Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper, not a Leviathan.

The entire premise of the Leviathan DLC is to locate what killed the Leviathan of Dis, not the Leviathan of Dis itself.

I still can't see how it's impossible to assume the Leviathan of Dis is a Leviathan and a Reaper killed it, but because of the Batarians removing it it got mixed up and they luckily found a hint to the Leviathans?

I'm with the ITers on this one. Leviathan of Dis is quite clearly a reaper. It doesn't make sense for an organic corpse to be preserved for billions of years. That seems quite impossible to me. So yeah, Leviathan of Dis is a reaper most likely.

[Norlond]

Added some stuff

From Psychological manipulation and Persuasion:

"According to Simon, successful psychological manipulation primarily involves:
- manipulator concealing aggressive intentions and behaviors"
Checked
"- manipulator knowing the psychological vulnerabilities of the victim to determine what tactics are likely to be the most effective. "
Starbrat being Starbrat: Checked
"- manipulator having a sufficient level of ruthlessness to have no qualms about causing harm to the victim if necessary."
"So be it! The cycle continues!" Checked

"Simon identified the following manipulative techniques:

- Lying
- Lying by omission (lying by withholding truth)
- Denial (has done nothing wrong)
- Rationalisation (as excuse)
- Minimization (behavior is not as harmful as others think)
- Selective inattention or selective attention (ignores anything that distracts from his agenda)
- Diversion (not giving straight answer to straight question)
- Evasion (giving irrelevant, vague responses)
- Covert intimidation (throwing victim onto defensive)
- Guilt tripping (make victim feel guilty, selfish...)
- Shaming (increase self-doubt)
- Playing the victim role ("poor me")
- Vilifying the victim (putting victim onto defensive while masking aggressive behavior)
- Playing the servant role (of a noble cause)
- Seduction (charm, praise, flattery)
- Projecting the blame (just blaming others)
- Feigning innocence (any harm done was not intentional)
- Feigning confusion (playing dumb)
- Brandishing anger (acting angry)"

Starbrat does almost everything of these things, especially the bold ones

"Manipulation strategy:
1: Assessment phase: Determining the victims potential and its weak points
2: Manipulation phase: Putting on a mask and using the above techniques
3: Abandonment phase: If victim is no longer useful. It can happen quickly and without the victim knowing the manipulators intentions"

3 kind of applies to Refuse I think

So it's clear Starbrat is manipulating us (who knew?), but how exactly does he convince most players to choose Control/Synthesis?

"[Carl Hovland] and his colleagues did experimental research into the factors that can affect the persuasiveness of a message:

- Target Characteristics
The way of conveying the message needs to be adapted to the character/traits of the victim (intelligence, self-esteem, overall mood...)
- Source Characteristics
It's important how the source of the message presents itself; authority for example can be an important factor in the effectivness of the persuasion
- Message Characteristics
What is the message the manipulator wants to convey and how does he do it?
- Cognitive Routes
The message needs to appeal to the victims cognitive evaluation, in a way that the received data will change the victims conclusion and/or view on the situation. Another method is hiding the message behind its source."

It should be quite obvious that Starbrat is adapting his message to Shepards personality (heroism, willing to sacrifice him/herself, for control/synthesis paragon-alignment, ...)
Source characteristics... all I need to say is that Starbrat looks like the kid from the beginning, the 'symbol of guilt' and blah
The Message characteristics go hand in hand with the Target characteristics, Starbrat appeals to Shepards traits (above) and presents Control and Synthesis as Utopias to lure us into believing they are the right choices that grant peace to the Galaxy forever (sounds beautiful doesn't it?)
Starbrat knows exactly hoe Shepard will perceive his arguments since he has almost full access to Shepards mind, he gives us just enough data to come to the conclusion that destroying the Reapers is not the way to go.
He does all that by using the techniques I listed above

Hope it's not too confusing, most people tell me they can't follow my trains of thoughts when I try to put my conclusions on paper 

Maybe I'll add some more things later, I love that psychology wiki

Everything is paraphrased, I didn't want to just copy everything

Edit: Annnd top, this post is awesome²

Modifié par Norlond, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:30 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I am not bying the whole Leviathans are the good guys/ told us everything. If the Citdal dlc is real/ Bioware is working on. Then you do realize that maybe we will go to the Reaper home world, and find out how they really came to be.

I would love this. Actually, I'd even settle for a comic. I'm not entirely convinced that the Leviathans didn't try to synthesize with their machines on purpose -- for immortality, and for ultimate dominance over synethetics and organics alike. The directive they programmed the Reaper construct with is a good, logical, and infinite (potentially) cover for what is ultimately a desire to remain Apex, but I'm sure they didn't expect Harbinger to in turn wipe out the rest of the organic Leviathans that weren't part of his hybrid makeup. The danger of absolutes in programming.

I think the Reaper construct cannot seem to challenge the logic of its own programming because it's so circular! The construct will keep struggling to find a solution to its programmed paradigm that synthetics will always destroy organics. And like that meme, it's answer is to destroy organics before synthetics can destroy organics, because as Reapers, they're synthetics. It's a goofy meme but the idea behind it makes sense -- with every cycle, they're proving the paradigm that drives their own directive, so there's never a reason to challenge the logic. Self-fulfilled prophecy, cycle after the cycle.

Whoever programmed it is one clever bastard of a Leviathan. And I want to know about it.

The problem here is that the Reapers themselves don't see it that way. They are preserving it. Also they don't see themselves as pure synthetics, which is why they are out of the equation in the first place. Also Leviathans would if unchallenged by the Reapers dominate every other race, they are in no way shown as the good guys. "Tribute does not flow from a dead race." or something.
For me Leviathan gives some other questions:
If you let the Batarian go in bdts he tells you in ME3 the Leviathan of Dis indoctrinated the researches which in turn helped the Reapers. We know the Leviathans say the cycle must continue, but it also shows they are actively helping.
If the Leviathans are actually seeking synthesis they could let her go because they see what could come.

The Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper, not a Leviathan.

The entire premise of the Leviathan DLC is to locate what killed the Leviathan of Dis, not the Leviathan of Dis itself.

I still can't see how it's impossible to assume the Leviathan of Dis is a Leviathan and a Reaper killed it, but because of the Batarians removing it it got mixed up and they luckily found a hint to the Leviathans?

I'm with the ITers on this one. Leviathan of Dis is quite clearly a reaper. It doesn't make sense for an organic corpse to be preserved for billions of years. That seems quite impossible to me. So yeah, Leviathan of Dis is a reaper most likely.

It's just counter to the description we get.
Leviathan is described as organic while any Reaper is described as machine, even the parts from Sovereign to the point it was claimed to be a Geth creation. Additionally we were even inside a Reaper, did ANYTHING look even remotely organic to any of you? It certainly did not for me.