80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Krimzie]

I'm a masochist and I'm listening to those dream sequence noises again and thinking hard about how exactly you go about indoctrinating someone -- and not the rapid-speed huskification enthrallment, but the legitimate, brainwashing, Saren and Benezia type. And I don't mean the technicalities of it. I mean what it feels like to them, in their own minds. What does it look like, you know?

I read an argument the other day that Shepard isn't undergoing indoctrination because she's given a choice. But isn't there something to be said about the illusion of choice and the success of indoctrination? And how do we know that Saren wasn't also presented with some version of choice? I would think he would have to have been. He has presence of mind. He can parse out the logic in his decisions. He is ultimately convinced that what he is doing is saving people. He has a sense of agency about him. An illusion of choice seems to me the most effective way to create that sort of mental submission.

I don't know. I'm blathering. But the relationships between indoctrination and the illusion of choice, and between indoctrination and fear are pretty fascinating to me.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, this goes along with the interesting verb choice of "subvert" in the Indoctrination codex article. Subverting is a whole lot different than enthralling, and would involve some sort of fake-agency on the part of the subverted.

Modifié par Krimzie, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Krimzie wrote...

I'm a masochist and I'm listening to those dream sequence noises again and thinking hard about how exactly you go about indoctrinating someone -- and not the rapid-speed huskification enthrallment, but the legitimate, brainwashing, Saren and Benezia type. And I don't mean the technicalities of it. I mean what it feels like to them, in their own minds. What does it look like, you know?

I read an argument the other day that Shepard isn't undergoing indoctrination because she's given a choice. But isn't there something to be said about the illusion of choice and the success of indoctrination? And how do we know that Saren wasn't also presented with some version of choice? I would think he would have to have been. He has presence of mind. He can parse out the logic in his decisions. He is ultimately convinced that what he is doing is saving people. He has a sense of agency about him. An illusion of choice seems to me the most effective way to create that sort of mental submission.

I don't know. I'm blathering. But the relationships between indoctrination and the illusion of choice, and between indoctrination and fear are pretty fascinating to me.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, this goes along with the interesting verb choice of "subvert" in the Indoctrination codex article. Subverting is a whole lot different than enthralling, and would involve some sort of fake-agency on the part of the subverted.

Just let the body flush the right chemicals and you're done.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
I still can't see how it's impossible to assume the Leviathan of Dis is a Leviathan and a Reaper killed it, but because of the Batarians removing it it got mixed up and they luckily found a hint to the Leviathans?

Bryson and Team Aurora certainly think the Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper and might I remind you there are recordings done by the Salarians which Team Aurora almost certainly had access too. In short they would be able to see if it was a Reaper.

Beyond that beeing a fully orrganic creature it is utterly impossible a Leviathan's mind control could continue to fucntion after its death. Even if it did a Leviathans mind control is not subtle as we clearly see in the DLC. The peeople on the asteroid mining facilty act odd even if they continue ressearch meaning had it been a Leviathan the ressearchers working on it would most have been found to be acting odd.

A Reaper on the other hand we know can Indoctrinate even millions of years after it was disabled.

It is a simple matter of logic.

Especially when such a change would serve nothing but cast doubt on the Leviathans goal and we hardly need anymore of that to know they are up to no good.

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
I still can't see how it's impossible to assume the Leviathan of Dis is a Leviathan and a Reaper killed it, but because of the Batarians removing it it got mixed up and they luckily found a hint to the Leviathans?

Bryson and Team Aurora certainly think the Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper and might I remind you there are recordings done by the Salarians which Team Aurora almost certainly had access too. In short they would be able to see if it was a Reaper.

Beyond that beeing a fully orrganic creature it is utterly impossible a Leviathan's mind control could continue to fucntion after its death. Even if it did a Leviathans mind control is not subtle as we clearly see in the DLC. The peeople on the asteroid mining facilty act odd even if they continue ressearch meaning had it been a Leviathan the ressearchers working on it would most have been found to be acting odd.

A Reaper on the other hand we know can Indoctrinate even millions of years after it was disabled.

It is a simple matter of logic.

Especially when such a change would serve nothing but cast doubt on the Leviathans goal and we hardly need anymore of that to know they are up to no good.

Point is it doesn't make any sense as these two descriptions contradict each other.
Also
"apparent corpse" they don't know.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:58 .

[RavenEyry]

Contradictory descriptions don't default to leviathan though. It could be either but I'm leaning towards reaper myself.

Humans are probably calling them leviathans because of the reaper

[RavenEyry]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

"apparent corpse" they don't know.

He was just playing dead. Even leviathans are terrified of batarian eyes!

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Also here is one thing. We dont know what kind of Reaper the Leviathan of Dis might have been. It not have been a Sovereign class Reaper which is the only Reaper type we have been inside.

In fact that a single Batarian Dreadnought was able to move it suggests it was not a Sovereign class Reaper since they are about 1/3 bigger than a Dreadnought. Now obviusly we dont know exactly how they moved it, but they had to get it of the planets surface for starters.

In short there are too many unknowns, but what we are told by Team Aurora, the Leviathans actions (so far they havent turned on us), how long which passed and how the Scienctists were indoctrinated it is the safest bet by far that the Leviathan of Dis was a Reaper.

[Eryri]

demersel wrote...

Not to me nention that Leviathan's thing is different - it is more like marble ball, and it feel organic - like leviathan's caviar or something.

Weirdly the same (slightly icky) thought had occured to me. I wondered if those orbs were perhaps unfertilised Leviathan eggs, that they naturally evolved to use as mind control relays?

Being aquatic it would be hard for them to develop conventional technology - I imagine it's difficult to smelt steel underwater. Maybe Leviathans skipped the bronze and iron ages and went straight for bioengineering?

[MegumiAzusa]

I could agree on a bad retcon here

[Eryri]

Andromidius wrote...

Brainwave about that subject.

It might not be about primative humans at all.  It might be designed to interact with any species, and show earlier forms of their species being studied.  Basically a customisable dream.  So Shepard uses it and sees Cro-Magnons, but anyone else would see their own ancestors.

Would potentially explain the huge time discrepencies if it was Leviathan technology.

And the spatial discrepancies. What are the odds that a device thousands of lightyears from Earth, would just happen to contain memories recorded from a Cro-Magnon?

[MegumiAzusa]

Eryri wrote...

demersel wrote...

Not to me nention that Leviathan's thing is different - it is more like marble ball, and it feel organic - like leviathan's caviar or something.

Weirdly the same (slightly icky) thought had occured to me. I wondered if those orbs were perhaps unfertilised Leviathan eggs, that they naturally evolved to use as mind control relays?

Being aquatic it would be hard for them to develop conventional technology - I imagine it's difficult to smelt steel underwater. Maybe Leviathans skipped the bronze and iron ages and went straight for bioengineering?

I would say they are basically of an advanced Asari type, changing the DNA while procreating to "construct" what they need

[RavenEyry]

Who needs sex when you have SCIENCE!

[Home run MF]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Also here is one thing. We dont know what kind of Reaper the Leviathan of Dis might have been. It not have been a Sovereign class Reaper which is the only Reaper type we have been inside.

In fact that a single Batarian Dreadnought was able to move it suggests it was not a Sovereign class Reaper since they are about 1/3 bigger than a Dreadnought. Now obviusly we dont know exactly how they moved it, but they had to get it of the planets surface for starters.

In short there are too many unknowns, but what we are told by Team Aurora, the Leviathans actions (so far they havent turned on us), how long which passed and how the Scienctists were indoctrinated it is the safest bet by far that the Leviathan of Dis was a Reaper.

The batarians refer to the LoD as a dreadnought, I don't think a reaper destroyer could be considered dreadnought sized. Still we haven't seen troop transports or processor ships, they are described as non self-aware though.

[Restrider]

Home run MF wrote...

The batarians refer to the LoD as a dreadnought, I don't think a reaper destroyer could be considered dreadnought sized. Still we haven't seen troop transports or processor ships, they are described as non self-aware though.

Can non self-aware Reaper ships indoctrinate?
Artifacts can....

[estebanus]

RavenEyry wrote...

Who needs sex when you have SCIENCE!

Can't do both?

[Eryri]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I would say they are basically of an advanced Asari type, changing the DNA while procreating to "construct" what they need

That's an interesting idea. Social insects can do something similar. All members of the colony are effectively siblings with very similar genes.  They change the chemical environment that the larvae develop in, to give rise to radically different body plans such as soldiers, workers, new queens etc. 

Modifié par Eryri, 10 décembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[RavenEyry]

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Who needs sex when you have SCIENCE!

Can't do both?

Can't do either personally.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Restrider wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

The batarians refer to the LoD as a dreadnought, I don't think a reaper destroyer could be considered dreadnought sized. Still we haven't seen troop transports or processor ships, they are described as non self-aware though.

Can non self-aware Reaper ships indoctrinate?
Artifacts can....

Even Husks are supposedly on some level beacon for Indoctrination. We dont really know with the the Derelict Reaper, though ill probably defer to one of the scientists describtion of how it was dreaming.

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

The batarians refer to the LoD as a dreadnought, I don't think a reaper destroyer could be considered dreadnought sized. Still we haven't seen troop transports or processor ships, they are described as non self-aware though.

Can non self-aware Reaper ships indoctrinate?
Artifacts can....

Even Husks are supposedly on some level beacon for Indoctrination. We dont really know with the the Derelict Reaper, though ill probably defer to one of the scientists describtion of how it was dreaming.

Not supposedly, just look at Grayson.
The derelict Reaper is from what we can gather operational but the input is cut. One line specifically states that it basically only receives noise. It's like someone who is disabled, can't move a thing but is still aware.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 10 décembre 2012 - 09:31 .

[Eryri]

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Who needs sex when you have SCIENCE!

Can't do both?

Science is sexy. Just look at Brian Cox...

(the physicist, not the guy from X-men 2)

Modifié par Eryri, 10 décembre 2012 - 09:40 .

[RavenEyry]

Eryri wrote...

Science is sexy. Just look at Brian Cox...

(the professor, not the guy from X-men 2)

Pfft, actor Cox is sexier than scientician Cox. I think it's the voice.

Modifié par RavenEyry, 10 décembre 2012 - 09:41 .

[Dwailing]

I'm pretty certain that they ACTUAL Leviathan of Dis was a real, you know, Leviathan, but the Reaper that the batarians actually recovered was a Reaper that found the Leviathan and was killed.

P.S. I'm sorry if this debate was actually over, but I just thought I'd add my two cents in the event that anyone needed two cents.

[RavenEyry]

Dwailing wrote...

I'm pretty certain that they ACTUAL Leviathan of Dis was a real, you know, Leviathan, but the Reaper that the batarians actually recovered was a Reaper that found the Leviathan and was killed.

P.S. I'm sorry if this debate was actually over, but I just thought I'd add my two cents in the event that anyone needed two cents.

What the heck am I supposed to do with cents? Annoy charity collectors?

[johnj1979]

I don't think this debate will ever be over, well not until the answers to all the questions that in this game will be answered once and all.

[Dwailing]

RavenEyry wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm pretty certain that they ACTUAL Leviathan of Dis was a real, you know, Leviathan, but the Reaper that the batarians actually recovered was a Reaper that found the Leviathan and was killed.

P.S. I'm sorry if this debate was actually over, but I just thought I'd add my two cents in the event that anyone needed two cents.

What the heck am I supposed to do with cents? Annoy charity collectors?

True, true.  Make that twenty dollars... unless Slender Man is here in which case, screw you guys, I want to live!