80611 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenEyry]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Doomsday - and remember - if Destroy is legit - it kinda fixes the problem. ))))

Both Control and Destroy prove the Reapers point.

For both it never says it's a solution but merely stops the cycle.

No it doesn't. The reapers have no point. Don't be stupid - even in literal interpetation the Guardian is full of ****. 

Just because the problem is a load of bollocks doesn't mean Mr. Sparkle doesn't believe it.
I'm not saying he's trustworthy, but every word isn't automatically a lie.

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Doomsday - and remember - if Destroy is legit - it kinda fixes the problem. ))))

Both Control and Destroy prove the Reapers point.

For both it never says it's a solution but merely stops the cycle.

No it doesn't. The reapers have no point. Don't be stupid - even in literal interpetation the Guardian is full of ****.

See my edit:

Think about it this way: without the Reaper upgrades there is no way of a Geth/Quarian peace. It is only the Quarians fear that can stop them to destroy the Geth. If the code isn't uploaded and the Quarians have nothing to fear you cannot stop them. It's all just as the Destroyer told you moments before.
Many people don't see that.

I could also point out, that without the code Geth are really just mulfunctioning software, that caused millions of deaths. So that really even's it out. 

[MegumiAzusa]

RavenEyry wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Doomsday - and remember - if Destroy is legit - it kinda fixes the problem. ))))

Both Control and Destroy prove the Reapers point.

For both it never says it's a solution but merely stops the cycle.

No it doesn't. The reapers have no point. Don't be stupid - even in literal interpetation the Guardian is full of ****. 

Just because the problem is a load of bollocks doesn't mean Mr. Sparkle doesn't believe it.
I'm not saying he's trustworthy, but every word isn't automatically a lie.

Also again it's confirmed in Leviathan that this was the purpose they created the AI for. There was no mistake.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Good point about EDI. Although she might end up betraying us after all. I would have more faith in AI if they weren't based on Reaper code.

I do want to trust synthetics, my paragon Shep always has. I just have sincere doubts about 'repurposing Reaper code'.

[estebanus]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Good point about EDI. Although she might end up betraying us after all. I would have more faith in AI if they weren't based on Reaper code.

I do want to trust synthetics, my paragon Shep always has. I just have sincere doubts about 'repurposing Reaper code'.

I take it you killed the geth then?

[demersel]

RavenEyry wrote...

Just because the problem is a load of bollocks doesn't mean Mr. Sparkle doesn't believe it.
I'm not saying he's trustworthy, but every word isn't automatically a lie.

Oh he doesn't )) 

And the problem isn'tload of bullocks. It is just not the problem at hand, and not the conflict we have with Mr Sparkles. And both Sides know it. Yet for some reason all you choose to forget it. And really spend your time thinking about it. 

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Doomsday - and remember - if Destroy is legit - it kinda fixes the problem. ))))

Both Control and Destroy prove the Reapers point.

For both it never says it's a solution but merely stops the cycle.

No it doesn't. The reapers have no point. Don't be stupid - even in literal interpetation the Guardian is full of ****. 

Just because the problem is a load of bollocks doesn't mean Mr. Sparkle doesn't believe it.
I'm not saying he's trustworthy, but every word isn't automatically a lie.

Also again it's confirmed in Leviathan that this was the purpose they created the AI for. There was no mistake.

You can't be sure.

Assuming the Leviathans are trustworthy to begin with, the AI was created to perserve life at any cost. That is not the same as being created to oversee the relations between synthetics and organics, to establish a connection (as the "catalyst" puts it).

It's a twist on it.

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Doomsday - and remember - if Destroy is legit - it kinda fixes the problem. ))))

Both Control and Destroy prove the Reapers point.

For both it never says it's a solution but merely stops the cycle.

No it doesn't. The reapers have no point. Don't be stupid - even in literal interpetation the Guardian is full of ****.

See my edit:

Think about it this way: without the Reaper upgrades there is no way of a Geth/Quarian peace. It is only the Quarians fear that can stop them to destroy the Geth. If the code isn't uploaded and the Quarians have nothing to fear you cannot stop them. It's all just as the Destroyer told you moments before.
Many people don't see that.

I could also point out, that without the code Geth are really just mulfunctioning software, that caused millions of deaths. So that really even's it out.

Does this unit have a soul?

Two points:
1. Self defense
2. They could have wiped out all the Quarians, they did not.

It is the organics that again attacked, but that doesn't matter. The point is conflict, which is exactly what the Guardian says.

[DoomsdayDevice]

estebanus wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Good point about EDI. Although she might end up betraying us after all. I would have more faith in AI if they weren't based on Reaper code.

I do want to trust synthetics, my paragon Shep always has. I just have sincere doubts about 'repurposing Reaper code'.

I take it you killed the geth then?

I've always made peace. This is my first playthrough where I will side with the Quarians.

[ElSuperGecko]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Point is still the motives are confirmed. The way it achieves the motives may be unclear but point of creating an AI to stop organics from creating an AI which in turn will kill any organics is confirmed. An AI, especially an alien AI does not rely on any of our values and morals. This is a big point as most argue from a human standpoint. Even between humans such standpoints have great variety to the point where you can't even understand other peoples customs which are based on their way of thinking.
Pre EC the guardian made perfect sense, even if it is lying you still have to have doubt, because if you don't and say "sure it's indoctrination" you can make lots bad decisions because of it, even denying the Geth their existence and therefor prove the Reapers point.

Fair enough - but as far as I see it, confirmation of the existence of the AI and confirmation of it's motives does not actually preclude the existence of IT.

And arguing the Catalyst from a human standpoint is fine.  Too many people appear to lose sight of the immediate crisis when faced with the Catalyst's "bigger picture".  We're fighting for our friends, allies, and the races of this cycle - not for some pie-in-the-sky hypothesis created by a mass-murdering AI which executed it's own creators.

The technological singularity posited by the AI - and the inevitable synthetic/organic feud confirmed by the Leviathan - may in fact be the future fate of the galaxy.  But becoming preoccupied by that distracts us from our current fate - harvesting and extinction.

And of course, the Levithan confirmed that they ruled the galaxy via enthrallment, and that the AI and it's Reaper understudies perfected the technique as indoctrination.  No stretch of the imagination is required to believe that the AI may attempt to influence Shepard using all the tools at it's disposal...

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 11 décembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[demersel]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Good point about EDI. Although she might end up betraying us after all. I would have more faith in AI if they weren't based on Reaper code.

I do want to trust synthetics, my paragon Shep always has. I just have sincere doubts about 'repurposing Reaper code'.

Yeah, well. You all forget the thing about this war - it doesn't matter. For now they fight for you - and that is all that matters. 

I'd be more concerned about people betraying you, like cerberus, or those hanars who worship the reapers, or even batarians - who have a grudge against anyone and nothing to loos and nothing to gain. Or the krogan. 

There is this fuss about reaoer code when really we do have more pressing concerns - like indoctrination of organic minds - which doesn't need any reaper code what so ever. 

Modifié par demersel, 11 décembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Doomsday - and remember - if Destroy is legit - it kinda fixes the problem. ))))

Both Control and Destroy prove the Reapers point.

For both it never says it's a solution but merely stops the cycle.

No it doesn't. The reapers have no point. Don't be stupid - even in literal interpetation the Guardian is full of ****. 

Just because the problem is a load of bollocks doesn't mean Mr. Sparkle doesn't believe it.
I'm not saying he's trustworthy, but every word isn't automatically a lie.

Also again it's confirmed in Leviathan that this was the purpose they created the AI for. There was no mistake.

You can't be sure.

Assuming the Leviathans are trustworthy to begin with, the AI was created to perserve life at any cost. That is not the same as being created to oversee the relations between synthetics and organics, to establish a connection (as the "catalyst" puts it).

It's a twist on it.

Overseeing the relations so that conflict does not arise to prevent organics to be annihilated by synthetics.

[RavenEyry]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Fair enough - but as far as I see it, confirmation of the existence of the AI and confirmation of it's motives does not actually preclude the existence of IT.

It's here I'd like to remind people that a primary point of IT is the dream being partially drawn from Shepard's memories. Being told beforehand that an AI created the reapers does not make meeting that Ai any more likely to be real.

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Doomsday - and remember - if Destroy is legit - it kinda fixes the problem. ))))

Both Control and Destroy prove the Reapers point.

For both it never says it's a solution but merely stops the cycle.

No it doesn't. The reapers have no point. Don't be stupid - even in literal interpetation the Guardian is full of ****.

See my edit:

Think about it this way: without the Reaper upgrades there is no way of a Geth/Quarian peace. It is only the Quarians fear that can stop them to destroy the Geth. If the code isn't uploaded and the Quarians have nothing to fear you cannot stop them. It's all just as the Destroyer told you moments before.
Many people don't see that.

I could also point out, that without the code Geth are really just mulfunctioning software, that caused millions of deaths. So that really even's it out.

Does this unit have a soul?

Two points:
1. Self defense
2. They could have wiped out all the Quarians, they did not.

It is the organics that again attacked, but that doesn't matter. The point is conflict, which is exactly what the Guardian says.

The fact that they ask the question anot having a soul does'nt mean that they do have one. 

EDI, and Shepard only achknowledge Legion having a soul in his final moments on rannoch. Think about it. 

The guardian is full of **** - if only because of the fact that if Geth have a soul so do the reapers - and they hence they cannot be controlled and are doing everything they do entirely out of their free will, not because they are bound by some faulty logic. 


They do what they do because they LIKE doing what they do. 

[MegumiAzusa]

RavenEyry wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Fair enough - but as far as I see it, confirmation of the existence of the AI and confirmation of it's motives does not actually preclude the existence of IT.

It's here I'd like to remind people that a primary point of IT is the dream being partially drawn from Shepard's memories. Being told beforehand that an AI created the reapers does not make meeting that Ai any more likely to be real.

So my first Shep never met the Leviathans. Nothing to draw on. As it's as canon as a Shep who met them your point is invalid.

[AresKeith]

I actually didn't like how they did Legion in ME3 compared to ME2's Legion

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Doomsday - and remember - if Destroy is legit - it kinda fixes the problem. ))))

Both Control and Destroy prove the Reapers point.

For both it never says it's a solution but merely stops the cycle.

No it doesn't. The reapers have no point. Don't be stupid - even in literal interpetation the Guardian is full of ****.

See my edit:

Think about it this way: without the Reaper upgrades there is no way of a Geth/Quarian peace. It is only the Quarians fear that can stop them to destroy the Geth. If the code isn't uploaded and the Quarians have nothing to fear you cannot stop them. It's all just as the Destroyer told you moments before.
Many people don't see that.

I could also point out, that without the code Geth are really just mulfunctioning software, that caused millions of deaths. So that really even's it out.

Does this unit have a soul?

Two points:
1. Self defense
2. They could have wiped out all the Quarians, they did not.

It is the organics that again attacked, but that doesn't matter. The point is conflict, which is exactly what the Guardian says.

The fact that they ask the question anot having a soul does'nt mean that they do have one. 

EDI, and Shepard only achknowledge Legion having a soul in his final moments on rannoch. Think about it. 

The guardian is full of **** - if only because of the fact that if Geth have a soul so do the reapers - and they hence they cannot be controlled and are doing everything they do entirely out of their free will, not because they are bound by some faulty logic. 


They do what they do because they LIKE doing what they do.

Reapers are indeed controlled, at least from cut material in ME2.

The does this unit have a soul question was more random, but I see from your answer you would clearly deny it.
Still the two other points apply. The Geth themselves didn't start this conflict. They maybe would have started one eventually, but if they would it also would have proven the Guardians point.
The proof why Reapers can taunt you is right before your eyes and it's always Reaper tech that doesn't seem hostile (Geth/EDI).

[MegumiAzusa]

AresKeith wrote...

I actually didn't like how they did Legion in ME3 compared to ME2's Legion

Me neither, still it's the organics forcing their hands. It's bluntly shown: if you don't choose to upgrade the Geth they will be annihilated.
I am sure Legion would prefer the original goal, but it also knows that that goal cannot be achieved as they face extinction.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 11 décembre 2012 - 04:04 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Fair enough - but as far as I see it, confirmation of the existence of the AI and confirmation of it's motives does not actually preclude the existence of IT.

It's here I'd like to remind people that a primary point of IT is the dream being partially drawn from Shepard's memories. Being told beforehand that an AI created the reapers does not make meeting that Ai any more likely to be real.

So my first Shep never met the Leviathans. Nothing to draw on. As it's as canon as a Shep who met them your point is invalid.

The presence of a 'master of the cycle' is suggested by Vendetta. That alone could be enough.

Also, nowhere is it said that everything in an illusion must be drawn from memories. Surely it is possible for Reapers to introduce a new concept. Hinting at its existence only makes Shepard more likely to accept the idea.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 11 décembre 2012 - 04:08 .

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Fair enough - but as far as I see it, confirmation of the existence of the AI and confirmation of it's motives does not actually preclude the existence of IT.

It's here I'd like to remind people that a primary point of IT is the dream being partially drawn from Shepard's memories. Being told beforehand that an AI created the reapers does not make meeting that Ai any more likely to be real.

So my first Shep never met the Leviathans. Nothing to draw on. As it's as canon as a Shep who met them your point is invalid.

The presence of a 'master of the cycle' is suggested by Vendetta. That alone could be enough.

Also, nowhere is it said that everything in an illusion must be drawn from memories. Surely it is possible for Reapers to introduce a new concept.

Introducing a concept which happens to be exactly what the Leviathans say?

[hukbum]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I actually didn't like how they did Legion in ME3 compared to ME2's Legion

Me neither, still it's the organics forcing their hands. It's bluntly shown: if you don't choose to upgrade the Geth they will be annihilated.

I think a bluff would also have worked. I don't really understand the need for these upgrades. I let them upgrade, because I've been thinking about Xen and her future experiment plans but beside that I can't see the need for upgrading them.

Modifié par hukbum, 11 décembre 2012 - 04:08 .

[demersel]

Ok found an interesting thing - the chatter with Garrus right after thessia mission - there is one place in his speech where sound just goes out for a moment and it is not a bug - happens everytime and the place where it happens is very telling. I'l record and post it.

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Fair enough - but as far as I see it, confirmation of the existence of the AI and confirmation of it's motives does not actually preclude the existence of IT.

It's here I'd like to remind people that a primary point of IT is the dream being partially drawn from Shepard's memories. Being told beforehand that an AI created the reapers does not make meeting that Ai any more likely to be real.

So my first Shep never met the Leviathans. Nothing to draw on. As it's as canon as a Shep who met them your point is invalid.

The presence of a 'master of the cycle' is suggested by Vendetta. That alone could be enough.

Also, nowhere is it said that everything in an illusion must be drawn from memories. Surely it is possible for Reapers to introduce a new concept. Hinting at its existence only makes Shepard more likely to accept the idea.

Introducing a concept which happens to be exactly what the Leviathans say?

The most convincing lies are those that are solidly founded in the truth. Also, the suggestion of that presence only makes Shepard more likely to believe in it when confronted with it.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 11 décembre 2012 - 04:10 .

[MegumiAzusa]

hukbum wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I actually didn't like how they did Legion in ME3 compared to ME2's Legion

Me neither, still it's the organics forcing their hands. It's bluntly shown: if you don't choose to upgrade the Geth they will be annihilated.

I think a bluff would also have worked. I don't really understand the need for these upgrades. I let them upgrade, because I've been thinking about Xen and her future experiment plans but beside that I can't see the need for upgrading them.

There is no option for a bluff. Also Quarians have scanners. Bluffing wouldn't really work, or at least for max 10 minutes.

[AresKeith]

@Megumi true and while I enjoyed the Rannoch arc, I still find the plot behind it stupid