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[bip78]

bip78 wrote...

So taking into account the Green or Red endings, technically Shep should should survive thanks to his bionic implants.

Green = he'll merge with the rest of the synthetics.
Red = his parts will stop functioning but organic parts will kick in?

Blue - he'll become a computer virus

[Leonia]

@MaximizedAction - Oh nice catch there regarding Synthesis, think I might give Evolution another read soon (and Retribution for that matter, never hurts to understand the Reaper tactics a little bit better).

[gunslinger_ruiz]

bip78 wrote...

bip78 wrote...

So taking into account the Green or Red endings, technically Shep should should survive thanks to his bionic implants.

Green = he'll merge with the rest of the synthetics.
Red = his parts will stop functioning but organic parts will kick in?

Blue - he'll become a computer virus

Not sure if he/she has organic parts that would kick in, unsure of how extensive the augmentations were. Entertain the idea that Shepard may have a synthetic lung or two, maybe a few feet of synthetic intestines, heart valves, heart monitors to keep the it from going out of synch. If it all shuts down, how would Shepard survive the shock alone? Then living without an unknown-amount of potentially essential bits and pieces.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 07 août 2012 - 11:22 .

[Rosewind]

Hey Byne!! lol thanks to you I started watching RvB, it is so funny and it's make my throat sore from laughing (I currently have Laryngitis)

[bip78]

If you watch the opening scenes in ME2 you can see a few items of hardware. 1: Spine clamp, 2: Heart rhythm module and an array of body stimulation gizmos.

In ME3 on the Cerberus base, EDI points of the first array of videos to watch in the reconstruction phase. On these vides they state that Sheps helmet/**** defends and safe guards most of Sheps organs and stops lack of oxygen damage happening.

And again at the end of the RED ending - we see a draw of breath!!

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Not sure if he/she has organic parts that would kick in, unsure of how extensive the augmentations were. Entertain the idea that Shepard may have a synthetic lung or two, maybe a few feet of synthetic intestines, heart valves, heart monitors to keep the it from going out of synch. If it all shuts down, how would Shepard survive the shock alone? Then living without an unknown-amount of potentially essential bits and pieces.

Well one part we do know is that Shepard has some kind of synthetic part strapped to his spine (from the ME2 rebuilding cinematic) so he would most likely become a cripple.

But the augmentations to Shepard are pretty widespread as Shepard in ME2 is capable of feats way beyond a human. Like using the M-300 Claymore shotgun which is described as breaking the arm of a man with the recoil or when he faces of against the Shadow Broker, a yagh, in hand to hand combat.

[BleedingUranium]

Rosewind wrote...

Hey Byne!! lol thanks to you I started watching RvB, it is so funny and it's make my throat sore from laughing (I currently have Laryngitis)

Awe  but good to hear someone else is here is watching it now!

[MaximizedAction]

Home run MF wrote...

Yes, the Reapers have technology capable of transforming someone from human to husk in seconds just by touching it(or being impaled). The Catalyst wants you to do that exactly (they even put a cutscene showing huskified Shep) and yet people don't see a problem with it?

What game are they playing? It's sure as hell not the one I am.

Hey, I talked to friend recently who did play all three games but either didn't feel it noteworthy that the other two choices are Reaper win scenarios (he did wonder that with Control seeming like the best choice, Saren and TIM turn out to be right, but it was more of a "oh, well..."-thing for him).

I think, even with knowing all the details, it still takes someone to take you by the hand and point out the obvious -- which means it isn't really that obvious. But isn't that exactly what makes a good illusion? After you see it you wanna facepalm all day long, or at least, that's what I kept (and still keep) doing.

On the other hand, all of that still doesn't prove anything about the real intention of the Reapers. One can derive possibilites, but non really 100% ones.

Just like, after I read Evolution it didn't really become obvious to me that Harper was being or became indoctrinated. It seemed more similar to what happened to Shepard on Eden Prime, only instead of a Prothean beacon it was a Reaper beacon. TIM and Shepard seem like two sides of the same medal to me.

But, what seemed to have happened to TIM in the end dialog on the Citadel is more like what happened to those who touched the Arca Monolith, they completely lost their marbles and became machine-line servants. Begs the question, whether that scene really happened or not all over again.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 07 août 2012 - 11:40 .

[billzo]

No. This is the REAL ending.

[Rosewind]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Hey Byne!! lol thanks to you I started watching RvB, it is so funny and it's make my throat sore from laughing (I currently have Laryngitis)

Awe  but good to hear someone else is here is watching it now!

According to my sister I sound like a man lol.

[Rifneno]

leonia42 wrote...

As for the Arca Monolith, I'm not 100% sure it's an indoctrination device, it's definitely another tool in the Reapers' arsenal, maybe designed more to placate races than it is intended to bring them under control in the form of indoctrination (that is, similar to the effects the Citadel seems to have on everyone there). Basically it primes them for indoctrination later, plus it can create husks. That's how it looked to me but the comic never really goes into great detail and even after reading it I wasn't convinced that TIM was indoctrinated. It seems sort of a cruel irony that Saren also falls victim to indoctrination later on as well but I'm not too sure the monolith is the source.

But agree on the appearance similarities, it'd be nice to actually hear TIM or someone else mention the monolith in-game and reveal more about it. Actually, you remember that device on Aequitas? Wasn't that basically the same sort of device?

Not sure about Aequitas, sorry.

They weren't merely husks. Husks are very crude and in general just inferior to the things that the Monolith created. Husks are essentially dead flesh controlled by cybernetics. The people that underwent transformation by the Monolith were still living, sentient beings. For a while the person they were before was still "in there" and could be coaxed out. But the Monolith had complete control over them. If it wanted them to do something, they did it. No subtle suggestions or manipulations, it simply had control over them.

TIM was definitely indoctrinated to some extent. Whether he was able to fight off the Reapers' subtle manipulations is debatable, but they were 100% definitely in his mind. He was speaking languages he didn't even know existed, he was having visions of the Reaper apocalypse complete with Harbinger-style trash talk, he even understood the fabled "Reaper language."

It's anyone's guess how much influence the Reapers had over both TIM and Saren after the Monolith incident. Though if you ask me, I think it was having a major effect on both of them. They both have the exact same "ends justice the means" mentality to a frightening extent. They both were more than happy to go to nightmarish lengths for their goals and they had no qualms or guilt about it. We have virtually no information on their lives prior to the Monolith but it's highly unlikely that both of them were such complete sociopaths. And when you think about it, that's the same mindset the Reapers have. Whatever their goal is, that's all they care about. To hell with the countless genocides committed to get there. That means nothing to them. And that's exactly the mindset that TIM and Saren have. Did the Monolith indoctrinate them to serve the Reapers? I've no idea. Did it bring them around the Reapers' way of thinking and morality? I believe that's a resounding "yes."

[bip78]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Not sure if he/she has organic parts that would kick in, unsure of how extensive the augmentations were. Entertain the idea that Shepard may have a synthetic lung or two, maybe a few feet of synthetic intestines, heart valves, heart monitors to keep the it from going out of synch. If it all shuts down, how would Shepard survive the shock alone? Then living without an unknown-amount of potentially essential bits and pieces.

Well one part we do know is that Shepard has some kind of synthetic part strapped to his spine (from the ME2 rebuilding cinematic) so he would most likely become a cripple.

But the augmentations to Shepard are pretty widespread as Shepard in ME2 is capable of feats way beyond a human. Like using the M-300 Claymore shotgun which is described as breaking the arm of a man with the recoil or when he faces of against the Shadow Broker, a yagh, in hand to hand combat.

Though saying that James and your fellow team mates can use a M-300 shotgun?!

So many loop holes

Modifié par bip78, 07 août 2012 - 11:52 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

(snip)

bip78 wrote...


Though saying that James and your fellow team mates can use a M-300 shotgun?!

So many loop holes

Nah that is the ME3 version, the codex on it mentions that it has been redesigned allowing Humans to use them but at the cost of reduced power.

In ME2 only Grunt and Shepard can use the M-300 Claymore.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 07 août 2012 - 12:01 .

[Home run MF]

MaximizedAction wrote...


Hey, I talked to friend recently who did play all three games but either didn't feel it noteworthy that the other two choices are Reaper win scenarios (he did wonder that with Control seeming like the best choice, Saren and TIM turn out to be right, but it was more of a "oh, well..."-thing for him).

I think, even with knowing all the details, it still takes someone to take you by the hand and point out the obvious -- which means it isn't really that obvious. But isn't that exactly what makes a good illusion? After you see it you wanna facepalm all day long, or at least, that's what I kept (and still keep) doing. 

I remember the first time I finished the game, my brain kept telling me something wasn't right like didnt I dreamed about this before? Then I read byne's thread and... well let's say I kept grinning like an idiot for a whole day.

MaximizedAction wrote...


On the other hand, all of that still doesn't prove anything about the real intention of the Reapers. One can derive possibilites, but non really 100% ones.

If the Reapers wanted us dead we would be dead, but they have a weakness, they want (or need) something from organics. They despise us yet keep using infiltration tactics, divide & conquer and all that. I think the Catalyst is just a distraction to keep us unaware of the weakness.
It would be funny if they wanted the organic batteries Joker says.

[TSA_383]

New Multiplayer Operation this weekend!
I wonder if it'll be Leviathan-related... We've got to be quite far along the MP storyline now.

bip78 wrote...

So taking into account the Green or Red endings, technically Shep should should survive thanks to his bionic implants.

Green = he'll merge with the rest of the synthetics.
Red = his parts will stop functioning but organic parts will kick in?

NOooooooOoooooo!
That's right. I went there.

magnetite wrote...

Not sure if anyone missed this stuff in ME2, but it pretty much spells out the ending to a T, including the words "warp reality", "dreams", and some other things.

Reaper Indoctrination video

That's a nice little video, did you put that together?

leonia42 wrote...

There's all sorts of wonkiness in the positions of the characters in that scene, if they wanted the player to be spoken to directly they would have been far more obvious about it and we wouldn't be trying to guess at all, it would just be self-evident which leads me to believe that wasn't intentional.

The Anderson/TIM scene?

The camera commands do "Lock to Character" and "Lock to Camera". Besides, that scene feels... polished, what with the lighting in each cut and suchlike - I think they'd have noticed if Anderson was looking the wrong way... 

[Arian Dynas]

bip78 wrote...

If you watch the opening scenes in ME2 you can see a few items of hardware. 1: Spine clamp, 2: Heart rhythm module and an array of body stimulation gizmos.

In ME3 on the Cerberus base, EDI points of the first array of videos to watch in the reconstruction phase. On these vides they state that Sheps helmet/**** defends and safe guards most of Sheps organs and stops lack of oxygen damage happening.

And again at the end of the RED ending - we see a draw of breath!!

Not so.

Yes, we see a spinal clamp of some sort, perhaps replacing or re-enforcing a vertebrae, a module ensuring his heart beats regularly, but we also know Shepard has extensive skin weave, meaning his skin is interwoven with carbon nanotube fibers, his bones are latticed, or replaced entirely with more such shunting, which also acts as a medi-gel conduit, his musculature is perforated with strength enhancing cables, we also know that his eyes may be partially, or perhaps entirely synthetic, extensive "wiring" in his face, and his phisology is made more robust by something, enabling him to drink Krogan rotgut without ill effects.

They state that his helmet kept his brain relatively intact, not that it safeguarded most of his organs, OR that it stopped hypoxic brain injuries. There is nothing saving Shepard from the ravages of vaccum. His helmet merely kept his brain from being reduced to jelly.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 07 août 2012 - 12:17 .

[MegumiAzusa]

leonia42 wrote...


But agree on the appearance similarities, it'd be nice to actually hear TIM or someone else mention the monolith in-game and reveal more about it. Actually, you remember that device on Aequitas? Wasn't that basically the same sort of device?

That would explain why the planet pops up randomly. As TIM you can still feel it and you are drawn to it.

[estebanus]

Hey there, guys and ladies. Did I miss anything?

[Dr JaMiN]

Since the thread is going slow right now I figured I'd post this. Many literalists don't believe the IT based largely on a lack of concrete evidence. While I think there is plenty of evidence when examined with context, it just simply isn't enough for some people. A good way to continue debating with those that ignore or refuse the evidence is to try using logic on how the series could possibly continue without the IT. Here is an argument I gave in another thread.

"To create a new Mass Effect game with such radical variances would require quite a bit of effort, and while I know Bioware is capable of such a feat, it just isn't cost effective. Yes Bioware has stated that there is no real canon to the story, but there is. The universe itself must have a set timeline of events in order to create new books, comics, and movies (all excluding prequels). Since those mediums cannot reflect player choice, there must be a set canon to base them on. Synthesis, Control, and Refuse do not allow this since they change the universe too radically.

On a more in-depth note, if the endings are to be interpreted literally, then a new conflict would be impossible. In Synthesis, everyone becomes at peace and one with each other. In Control, the reapers would become the peacekeepers of the galaxy, preventing any truly threatening conflicts. Refuse ends the council cycle. In short, no conflict = no new plot. Furthermore, all works of fiction must at least somewhat be relatable to our own reality. By removing conflict, we can no longer relate to the fiction. Even though it's unpleasant, conflict is part of our nature. Try to name some stories about a truly perfect and realistic utopian society. It is impossible, but there are countless stories about dystopian societies because it just makes more sense.

Although Destroy is the most realistic of the endings, it too creates too many inconsistencies for the narrative to follow. An example of this would be the Crucible. A good writer cannot simply create an ultimate conflict off switch, or else future conflict resolution will always have less impact, so it just can't be that simple. If none of the endings can be used to continue the series, then the only option left open is a non-literal interpretation, aka Indoctrination Theory."

Since none of the existing endings allow for continuation of the series, Indoctrination is not just a preferred option, it is the only possible option. Two of my personal friends were completely discouraged from IT once the EC came out, but after giving them this argument, they regained some confidence. Hopefully this post helps someone.

Modifié par Dr JaMiN, 07 août 2012 - 12:47 .

[CoolioThane]

People who hate the IT are idiots.

[Dr JaMiN]

CoolioThane wrote...

People who hate the IT are idiots.

I'd say that's largely true, but many of them are just in denial. I feel kinda bad for them.

[Home run MF]

Dr Jamin how do you think it will continue if we get an IT confirmation? Another game? a DLC?

Because I don't see any of those coming. Maybe they'll just make IT a little more obvious and that's it. Just my 2 cents.

Modifié par Home run MF, 07 août 2012 - 01:04 .

[estebanus]

Dr JaMiN wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

People who hate the IT are idiots.

I'd say that's largely true, but many of them are just in denial. I feel kinda bad for them.

Well, I don't think they're in denial (IT will probably never get implemented, I think), But I do think that their hate is very unwarranted.

[estebanus]

CoolioThane wrote...

People who hate the IT are idiots.

Thanks. I appreciate that. Nice of you to call me an idiot.

[Dr JaMiN]

estebanus wrote...

Dr JaMiN wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

People who hate the IT are idiots.

I'd say that's largely true, but many of them are just in denial. I feel kinda bad for them.

Well, I don't think they're in denial (IT will probably never get implemented, I think), But I do think that their hate is very unwarranted.

True, so I guess we should just kill em with kindness. That always seems to irritate them.