80611 réponses à ce sujet

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

Modifié par paxxton, 12 décembre 2012 - 05:49 .

[TheProtheans]

BleedingUranium wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

I still think they should have rammed into the Char relay with something massive.

That would take too long. The Reapers would see it happening and lock up in their Quantom Shields. The Reapers were minutes outs from using the Alpha Relay, well within the supernove range, and yet survived.

Minutes of ftl vs seconds of a sublight explosion. No I don't think it even touched them.

Megumi's right on this one, you can't use the destroy relay tactic against things that can travel at FTL speeds.

Perhaps if you used the power source known as the crucible you could ram that into it too with it positioned right behind the asteroid.
Not sure how it would work but the initial blast with set off a chain reaction and act similar to the blast in the ending as in it travels really fast and nothing escapes within it's reach in that part of the galaxy.

[BleedingUranium]

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

Oh, so it's brainwashing. Because that's so much better.

[RavenEyry]

Brainwashing slaves doesn't make slavery alright.
Edit:

Modifié par RavenEyry, 12 décembre 2012 - 05:53 .

[MegumiAzusa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

Oh, so it's brainwashing. Because that's so much better.

Sure it is, there's a reason it's labeled the good choice in ME2

[TheProtheans]

paxxton wrote...

Or something along these lines. You can see how easily Leviathan dewactivates a Reaper in the DLC, right?

It is very different.
Much like the far fetched example I used 4-5 posts ago.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 12 décembre 2012 - 05:52 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 12 décembre 2012 - 05:55 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

I gotta say, single player vanguards are fun as hell.

[RavenEyry]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime

And who are we to argue with Peter Cullen's voice?

[Restrider]

TheProtheans wrote...



The original would be space magic.
Archengeia made a good point on it being a Reaper trap and I think it is plausible, it makes sense somewhat.

Though then a new way to defeat the Reaper would be needed, either another ancient plausible device/weapon or a conventional victory against the Reapers.

Just my two cents on that matter:
I will just assume that the connection between Reapers and victims that are indoctrinated are not only in one-way (as implied by ME1's ending). After chosing Destroy and the Breath Scene, Shepard does not wake up, but he is aware of the fact that he is not in the real world and has to fight to really get out of the hallucination. The Breath Scene would just be Shepard dipping out of the hallucination for a short time, to enter a lucid dream instead.
Harbinger is caught off guard and Shepard can extract information of his mind (vision style like in ME1). Shepard wakes up, retreats to FOB with the remains of Hammer. There he has to decypher (Liara/Shiala melding, Rachni Queen, whatever) the information he was able to extract that in the end will reveal that the Crucible is a Reaper trap. Shepard forwards the functionality of the Crucible to scientists/engineers who are then able to reporpuse the Crucible/Citadel to weaken the Reapers.
Now they have to get into the Citadel (small teams using Shuttles to use some kind of Keeper tunnels maybe? - I don't really want to use the beam for that), claw their way to the place where they can alter the functionality of the Citadel/Crucible and can open the arms for the Crucible to dock. On the way they fight with Citadel Defense Force and maybe even with Cerberus, who turn out to be not a 100% Reaper puppet.

I am aware of the fact that this script is a bit long if we consider the on-going space battle. But it is just fan-fiction that to me makes more sense than literal.

Modifié par Restrider, 12 décembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Ageless Face]

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy.

That is something I found most hard dealing with when I decided I will go control. Even though I don't believe the catalyst had absolute control over the Reapers, it was still enough for them to do as he commanded, and sadly, enough for me to call it slavery. However, Although I feel terrible saying it, I'd rather inslave my enemies if it means my allies and friends will be saved. 

  And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

I don't think everyone are connected to the Reapers in Synthesis more than they are able to understand their minds.

As for what happens to the catalyst, I'd say he's still around. I sure hope he also changed from Synthesis and is able to understand organics, as the Reapers seem to in the epilouge. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:03 .

[paxxton]

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

Oh, so it's brainwashing. Because that's so much better.

It's not brainwashing. Synthetics have this capability (feature if you will). They can be reprogrammed. When you wipe your hard disk, you don't call it "brainwashing your computer."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

Oh, so it's brainwashing. Because that's so much better.

It's not brainwashing. Synthetics have this capability (feature if you will). They can be reprogrammed. When you wipe your hard disk, you don't call it "brainwashing your computer."

If my computer was sentient, then yes I would actually because then you're changing the way it thinks.

[MegumiAzusa]

HagarIshay wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy.

That is something I found most hard times dealing with when I decided I will go control. Even though I don't believe the catalyst had absolute control over the Reapers, it was still enough for them to do as he commanded, and sadly, enough for me to call it slavery. However, Although I feel terrible saying it, I'd rather inslave my enemies if it means my allies and friends will be saved.

This kind of thinking is in my opinion what the ending is all about. That is a bittersweet ending.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:03 .

[paxxton]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

Oh, so it's brainwashing. Because that's so much better.

It's not brainwashing. Synthetics have this capability (feature if you will). They can be reprogrammed. When you wipe your hard disk, you don't call it "brainwashing your computer."

If my computer was sentient, then yes I would actually because then you're changing the way it thinks.

Sure. But if your computer tried to kill you by melting you into a genetic paste, you'd be more willing to change its ways.

Modifié par paxxton, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[RavenEyry]

paxxton wrote...

Sure. But if your computer tried to kill you by melting you into a genetic paste, you'd be more willing to change its ways.

Or just kill it in self defence instead of brainwashing and enslaving it in th name of 'mercy'.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

paxxton wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

Oh, so it's brainwashing. Because that's so much better.

It's not brainwashing. Synthetics have this capability (feature if you will). They can be reprogrammed. When you wipe your hard disk, you don't call it "brainwashing your computer."

If my computer was sentient, then yes I would actually because then you're changing the way it thinks.

Sure. But if your computer tried to kill you by melting you into a genetic paste, you'd be more willing to change its ways.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that you have to brainwash it in order to do so.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

"If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them" - Samara.

"If you messed with my head, made me nod and smile to everything, I would rather you just blew my head of...let me die as me" - Jack.

These two quotes strike me as quite relevant in the context of Synthesis and Control and this discussion.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:14 .

[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Sure. But if your computer tried to kill you by melting you into a genetic paste, you'd be more willing to change its ways.

Or just kill it in self defence instead of brainwashing and enslaving it in th name of 'mercy'.

Because killing in self-defense is so much easier, right? Killing it would make the problem vanish, not solved.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

(snip)

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Sure. But if your computer tried to kill you by melting you into a genetic paste, you'd be more willing to change its ways.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that you have to brainwash it in order to do so.

Well said, the very quistion on wether to rewrite a AI or not is brought up in ME2 and a suprising number of squadmates agree that rewriting an AI is the same as Brainwashing or killing it. Garrus even compares it to indoctrination.

[paxxton]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

"There is no difference between the two. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them" - Samara.

"If you messed with my head, made me nod and smile to everything, I would rather you just blew my head of...let me die as me" - Jack.

These two quotes strike me as quite relevant in the context of Synthesis and Control.

The self resides in a synthetic brain, if you reprogram the brain what's left (the platform) does not house the former self. Anyway, as I said blindly destroying the cause of a preblem makes the problem vanish, but it hasn't been solved.

[spotlessvoid]

Indoctrination is not a singular act. It is a sliding scale that goes from simple disorientation to huskification. The harder the Reapers push it, the more a subject degrades mentally and loses value. The targets will power, moral alignment, emotional stability, environment, frequency of exposure, and proximity to indoctrination source are contributing factors to the effectiveness of indoctrination.

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

(snip)

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Sure. But if your computer tried to kill you by melting you into a genetic paste, you'd be more willing to change its ways.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that you have to brainwash it in order to do so.

Well said, the very quistion on wether to rewrite a AI or not is brought up in ME2 and a suprising number of squadmates agree that rewriting an AI is the same as Brainwashing or killing it. Garrus even compares it to indoctrination.

And the interesting thing here is it's marked as good in the files.

[TheProtheans]

spotlessvoid wrote...
frequency of exposure, and proximity to indoctrination source are contributing factors to the effectiveness of indoctrination.

Amount of exposure is irrelevant after a certain stage(specificially the amount needed to begin the process)
Once the seeds are planted they're planted and indoctrination begins.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

"There is no difference between the two. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them" - Samara.

"If you messed with my head, made me nod and smile to everything, I would rather you just blew my head of...let me die as me" - Jack.

These two quotes strike me as quite relevant in the context of Synthesis and Control.

The self resides in a synthetic brain, if you reprogram the brain what's left (the platform) does not house the former self. Anyway, as I said blindly destroying the cause of a preblem makes the problem vanish, but it hasn't been solved.

And thus you have killed it.

That depends on what the problem is. In the case of Mass Effect, the problem is the Reapers and destroying them does solve the problem.