80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Ithurael]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime

"Is the future of our race not worth a single human life?" - Megatron

[BleedingUranium]

I'm replaying Omega and found something interesting to add to Doomsday's comparison of the reactor scene and the ending. Not only is the reactor scene like the decision chamber, so is the part leading up to it.

Once you're within view of the main elevator Nyreen comments it's odd there are no enemies, to which Aria says it means we should be ready for anything. You then go straight down a narrow catwalk to the elevator, which you take up to the reactor room, where the aforementioned ending like scene takes place.

[FoxBio]

Hey, did you see that?
Not bad.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

(snip)

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Sure. But if your computer tried to kill you by melting you into a genetic paste, you'd be more willing to change its ways.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that you have to brainwash it in order to do so.

Well said, the very quistion on wether to rewrite a AI or not is brought up in ME2 and a suprising number of squadmates agree that rewriting an AI is the same as Brainwashing or killing it. Garrus even compares it to indoctrination.

And the interesting thing here is it's marked as good in the files.

Because it lies in the Paragon choice, but as far as I recall rewritting or destroying the heretics does not offer any Renegade or Paragon points either wya. Also rewritting the heretics makes peace bewteen Quarians and Geth much harder to achieve (Destroying the station adds two points to a hidden score where 5 is needed to achieve peace. 7 points are possible all in all throughout ME2 and 3 meaning you have to get everything just right to achieve peace after rewriting the Heretics).

Scratch that, the choice does give Rene/Paragon points.

My second part still stands though.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:27 .

[paxxton]

If the Reapers were throwing flowers and candy at organics, no one would want to Control them. But instead they are firing deadly lasers and demolish whole planets. The tech they use is not evil, what's bad is how they use it. Control makes sense because it allows for studying the tech.

[paxxton]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

"There is no difference between the two. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them" - Samara.

"If you messed with my head, made me nod and smile to everything, I would rather you just blew my head of...let me die as me" - Jack.

These two quotes strike me as quite relevant in the context of Synthesis and Control.

The self resides in a synthetic brain, if you reprogram the brain what's left (the platform) does not house the former self. Anyway, as I said blindly destroying the cause of a preblem makes the problem vanish, but it hasn't been solved.

And thus you have killed it.

That depends on what the problem is. In the case of Mass Effect, the problem is the Reapers and destroying them does solve the problem.

No, because you destroy the tech and science they are based on.

Modifié par paxxton, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:26 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ithurael wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime

"Is the future of our race not worth a single human life?" - Megatron

Ah, toushe.

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

And the interesting thing here is it's marked as good in the files.

Because it is in this particular case. You have to read between the lines a bit to figure it out, but you're not brainwashing them, you're unbrainwashing them. Or more accurately, you're unindoctrinating them and undoing the brainwashing done by Sovereign. That's why it's good in this particular case.

This is also supported by the fact that destroying them is viewed as Paragon at the beginning of the mission, but at the end, once you have more context, rewriting them is Paragon.

[MaximizedAction]

BleedingUranium wrote...

I'm replaying Omega and found something interesting to add to Doomsday's comparison of the reactor scene and the ending. Not only is the reactor scene like the decision chamber, so is the part leading up to it.

Once you're within view of the main elevator Nyreen comments it's odd there are no enemies, to which Aria says it means we should be ready for anything. You then go straight down a narrow catwalk to the elevator, which you take up to the reactor room, where the aforementioned ending like scene takes place.

Nice, more scenes that make the design of the Citadel places in the ending being pieces from Shep's mind probably.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

"There is no difference between the two. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them" - Samara.

"If you messed with my head, made me nod and smile to everything, I would rather you just blew my head of...let me die as me" - Jack.

These two quotes strike me as quite relevant in the context of Synthesis and Control.

The self resides in a synthetic brain, if you reprogram the brain what's left (the platform) does not house the former self. Anyway, as I said blindly destroying the cause of a preblem makes the problem vanish, but it hasn't been solved.

And thus you have killed it.

That depends on what the problem is. In the case of Mass Effect, the problem is the Reapers and destroying them does solve the problem.

No, because you destroy the tech and science they are based on.

How is the tech and science they are based on in any way related to the problem? The problem as presented trhoughout the series is that the Reapers harvest every race every 50.000 years and it is our turn now. We have to prevent that and Destroying the Reapers prevents that.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Ithurael wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime

"Is the future of our race not worth a single human life?" - Megatron

"I nominate myself as new leader"- Starscream

[paxxton]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

"There is no difference between the two. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them" - Samara.

"If you messed with my head, made me nod and smile to everything, I would rather you just blew my head of...let me die as me" - Jack.

These two quotes strike me as quite relevant in the context of Synthesis and Control.

The self resides in a synthetic brain, if you reprogram the brain what's left (the platform) does not house the former self. Anyway, as I said blindly destroying the cause of a preblem makes the problem vanish, but it hasn't been solved.

And thus you have killed it.

That depends on what the problem is. In the case of Mass Effect, the problem is the Reapers and destroying them does solve the problem.

No, because you destroy the tech and science they are based on.

How is the tech and science they are based on in any way related to the problem? The problem as presented trhoughout the series is that the Reapers harvest every race every 50.000 years and it is our turn now. We have to prevent that and Destroying the Reapers prevents that.

Controling them does that too. + you can study them in one piece.

[spotlessvoid]

TheProtheans wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...
frequency of exposure, and proximity to indoctrination source are contributing factors to the effectiveness of indoctrination.

Amount of exposure is irrelevant after a certain stage(specificially the amount needed to begin the process)
Once the seeds are planted they're planted and indoctrination begins.

This depends on many factors. A subject who is strong of will and morally upright is not easily corrupted. The length and frequency of exposure definitely effect it. This is why the Cerberus scientists, Benezia, etc weren't immediately indoctrinated. Continuous prolonged exposure is not the same as repeated brief exposure.
When a valuable subject is targeted, manipulation of their emotions, instinct, and ambitions can be accomplished with less exposure if the subject is easier to manipulate. The more the Reapers force their way in to a subject psyche, the higher the risk of ending up with a babbling idiot. High value targets are not pushed to the point of mental breakdown. The Reapers are often insidious and cunning in their use of indoctrination

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime

"Is the future of our race not worth a single human life?" - Megatron

"I nominate myself as new leader"- Starscream

"It is only logical." - Shockwave

[Ithurael]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime

"Is the future of our race not worth a single human life?" - Megatron

"I nominate myself as new leader"- Starscream

"It is only logical." - Shockwave

"Even in death, there is no command but MINE!" - Megatron

[MegumiAzusa]

MaximizedAction wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I'm replaying Omega and found something interesting to add to Doomsday's comparison of the reactor scene and the ending. Not only is the reactor scene like the decision chamber, so is the part leading up to it.

Once you're within view of the main elevator Nyreen comments it's odd there are no enemies, to which Aria says it means we should be ready for anything. You then go straight down a narrow catwalk to the elevator, which you take up to the reactor room, where the aforementioned ending like scene takes place.

Nice, more scenes that make the design of the Citadel places in the ending being pieces from Shep's mind probably.

It actually reminded me more of the Cerberus HQ, also there is nothing to draw upon if Shep never helped Aria to retake Omega. You can only use must have missions for this to work.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:48 .

[Eryri]

Ithurael wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime

"Is the future of our race not worth a single human life?" - Megatron

"I nominate myself as new leader"- Starscream

"It is only logical." - Shockwave

"Even in death, there is no command but MINE!" - Megatron

"Perhaps I misjudged you. Proceed... on your way to oblivion." - Unicron Harbinger to low EMS / Refuse Shepard.

Modifié par Eryri, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[MaximizedAction]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It actually reminded me more of the Cerberus HQ, also there is nothing to draw upon if Shep never helped Aria to retake Omega.

Of course it's Cerberus HQ. But the Omega scene adds a scene to the pool for the memory to draw from.
(This argument isn't weakened by allowing e.g. the Cerberus HQ be a dream only because our Shep saw it on Omega already)

[Bill Casey]

Ithurael wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -Optimus Prime

"Is the future of our race not worth a single human life?" - Megatron

"I nominate myself as new leader"- Starscream

"It is only logical." - Shockwave

"Even in death, there is no command but MINE!" - Megatron

Bumblebee, stop lubricating the man! - Optimus Prime

[The Heretic of Time]

dorktainian wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Reapers have access to Shepard's mind
Reapers can influence memories
Reapers are ****ing evil
Reapers indoctrinate even whilst "dead"

Let's keep Reapers alive...? Nope, let's DESTROY them

   


FTW

That's a f*cking cool screenshot. If everyone in Synthesis looked like that, I would have chosen Synthesis for sure.

[paxxton]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Reapers have access to Shepard's mind
Reapers can influence memories
Reapers are ****ing evil
Reapers indoctrinate even whilst "dead"

Let's keep Reapers alive...? Nope, let's DESTROY them

   


FTW

That's a f*cking cool screenshot. If everyone in Synthesis looked like that, I would have chosen Synthesis for sure.

Actually, that face is severely burnt.

[BleedingUranium]

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It actually reminded me more of the Cerberus HQ, also there is nothing to draw upon if Shep never helped Aria to retake Omega.

Of course it's Cerberus HQ. But the Omega scene adds a scene to the pool for the memory to draw from.
(This argument isn't weakened by allowing e.g. the Cerberus HQ be a dream only because our Shep saw it on Omega already)

Exactly, by Megumi's logic we can't use the Geth Consensus mission as an ending comparison because it's an optional mission. Anything said by squadmates than can be dead shouldn't be counted either.

[masster blaster]

Control is a no no. TIM Indoctrinated, Kai Leng Indoctrinated, Cerberus troops Indoctrinated, the Geth being Controled by Reaper signals Indoctrinated, and Reaper husk/zombi armys Indoctrinated.

What Brat says is law. He controls the Reapers, He tells us that he controled TIM. He made us shot Anderson. He sent Harbinger to kill our Shepard/ everyone charging at the beam. Reapers Indoctrinated world Leaders. The ******* kid told Cerberus to attack the Citadle/ killing Thane in the process.

I can go on, but you get that point.

[spotlessvoid]

Control is a terrible idea for many reasons.
1. It's not Shepard who controls the Reapers, it's an AI based off his personality.
2.That resulting AI can become corrupted
3. Someone can in turn take control and replace the Shepard AI.
4. There is no way to know I ahead of time if Shepard is mentally strong enough to withstand direct contact with a Reaper's mind.
5. Who's to say that Shepard AI should be final arbiter of all things?
6. The Reapers are still there

[BansheeOwnage]

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I just had a thought about something. In a literal version of Control, Shepard just enslaved countless billions of "preserved" lives. Assuming Brat is telling the truth, this assertion is true. Why? Because he says that Shepard will replace him, and he controls, from a literal perspective, the Reapers absolutely. He owns them. That's the definition of slavery. If Shepard chooses Control, he's commiting a crime even worse, if you ask me, than simply killing them in Destroy. And this raises another question, IMHO. What happens to Brat in Synthesis? Does he still control the Reapers? If so, then does he control EVERYONE since everyone is supposedly connected to the Reapers in Synthesis?

It's completely unlike slavery. The Reapers abandon their views and goals, accept the new Catalyst. It's purpose becomes theirs. They do not resent anything because their previous mindset is gone.

"There is no difference between the two. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them" - Samara.

"If you messed with my head, made me nod and smile to everything, I would rather you just blew my head of...let me die as me" - Jack.

These two quotes strike me as quite relevant in the context of Synthesis and Control.

The self resides in a synthetic brain, if you reprogram the brain what's left (the platform) does not house the former self. Anyway, as I said blindly destroying the cause of a preblem makes the problem vanish, but it hasn't been solved.

And thus you have killed it.

That depends on what the problem is. In the case of Mass Effect, the problem is the Reapers and destroying them does solve the problem.

No, because you destroy the tech and science they are based on.

How is the tech and science they are based on in any way related to the problem? The problem as presented trhoughout the series is that the Reapers harvest every race every 50.000 years and it is our turn now. We have to prevent that and Destroying the Reapers prevents that.

Controling them does that too. + you can study them in one piece.

I suggest you read my Wall of Text I recently added to my Words of Awesome in my signature. I talk about brainwashing in synthesis. I even use one of those quotes.