80611 réponses à ce sujet

[DoomsdayDevice]

Bill Casey wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Control is a terrible idea for many reasons.
1. It's not Shepard who controls the Reapers, it's an AI based off his personality.
2.That resulting AI can become corrupted
3. Someone can in turn take control and replace the Shepard AI.
4. There is no way to know I ahead of time if Shepard is mentally strong enough to withstand direct contact with a Reaper's mind.
5. Who's to say that Shepard AI should be final arbiter of all things?
6. The Reapers are still there

Control becomes hilarious if you think Shepard has PTSD...
Or that the Catalyst is shackled...

WINNING

[401 Kill]

[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...

[quote]BleedingUranium wrote...

I'm replaying Omega and found something interesting to add to Doomsday's comparison of the reactor scene and the ending. Not only is the reactor scene like the decision chamber, so is the part leading up to it.

Once you're within view of the main elevator Nyreen comments it's odd there are no enemies, to which Aria says it means we should be ready for anything. You then go straight down a narrow catwalk to the elevator, which you take up to the reactor room, where the aforementioned ending like scene takes place.[/quote
Nice! :D

I'll add the link for those who missed it:
Omega Reactor - Ending Foreshadowing
[/quote]
Wow, that's amazing! I have not seen that before. Good analysis on Omega. I wonder if there is any more like that. Maybe like how Aria's plan to simply ram her ship into Omegas shields to knock them down was doomed because she had complete disregaurd for the abilities of her enemies.

Or something.

[griot13]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

This is an older thing I still wanted to respond to;

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

estebanus wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

 I would have more faith in AI if they weren't based on Reaper code.

I do want to trust synthetics, my paragon Shep always has. I just have sincere doubts about 'repurposing Reaper code'.

I take it you killed the geth then?

I've always made peace. This is my first playthrough where I will side with the Quarians.

Congrats Doomsday, you've successfully bought the kid's BS.

Proving the Reapers point by trying to fight them

I'm not sure what you guys are getting at here, but let me clarify my standpoint on this.

First off, I'm still playing through the game, and I might actually end up changing my mind about this, depending on how I'll experience the whole thing this time.

If I will be siding with the Quarians, it will not be because I agree with the Starbinger BS that synthetics will always turn on organics.

Several reasons:

- My Shepard trusts synthetics, but the problem I'm having with this case is the whole Reaper code thing.

We were talking about pattern recognition earlier, well, in this case I'd like to point to several things. If you have read the topic in my signature, you may be aware that I am of the opinion that Javik (and From Ashes in general) has some important things to say in the foreshadowing department. The following thing is foreshadowing synthesis IMO, but there's more to it.

Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

We're talking about a race that can't live on their homeworld any more. Sound like Quarians? Coincidence? If you let Legion use the Reaper code, and you make peace, the Geth will start uploading themselves into the suits of the Quarians to boost their immune systems and such.

That's not everything though, the Reapers were involved as well.

Javik: "In my cycle, a race called the Zha used machines, the Zha'til, as synthetic symbiotes. The Reapers subjugated the Zha'til as they have the geth. Their mechanical swarms blotted out the sky. They were brutal,
merciless."

Tali: "Keelah. What did you do?"

Javik: "We sent their star into supernova. I believe the Zha would have thanked us."

That's two times that he explicitly draws the parallel to the Geth, not to mention the creepy similarities between the Zha and the Quarians.

And then, of course, there's Legion betraying his own ideals:

Legion: an interesting choice, Shepard Commander. Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

I hope you understand it is not because I don't trust synthetics. It's that I don't trust Legion's sudden enthusiasm for a free Reaper upgrade. Whatever happened to achieving our own future, on our own terms?

I think it resembles a really devious trap in which Legion simply can't pass up instant ascension, and Shepard goes along because he doesn't want to kill either of his friends, all in the name of everlasting peace between synthetics and organics. Throw in Legion's sacrifice and we've got ourselves a beautiful case of synthesis foreshadowing.

It isn't for nothing that synthesis supporters always bring up this argument when debating IT-ers.

Think about it, it would be so devious. We think we're making peace between synthetics and organics, the Geth think they ascend to true AI status, the Quarians think they'll all benefit from this, but the Reapers have the last laugh.

By once again not being able to withstand the temptation to use their 'gifts', we pave the road to hell with good intentions. The Reaper code may take over the Geth, the AI will then seize control of the Quarians and we could have ourselves a new generation of Collectors.

Once again, it's not because I don't want to trust synthetics, I want to. But either I have my confirmation bias and my pattern recognition mixed up, or you guys are way too sure of yourselves that the writers would never pull such a devious trick on us, in which case I ask you: why do you believe in IT again?

I had another quote that was relevant, but I forgot what it was. I'll post it later if I can remember what it was.

^This guy understands^ Legion also lied several times to get what Geth wanted, I think there just telling you what you wanna hear.. I will never deny varibles but people believe what they wanna believe.

Modifié par griot13, 13 décembre 2012 - 01:17 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

HagarIshay wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Control is a terrible idea for many reasons.
1. It's not Shepard who controls the Reapers, it's an AI based off his personality.
2.That resulting AI can become corrupted
3. Someone can in turn take control and replace the Shepard AI.
4. There is no way to know I ahead of time if Shepard is mentally strong enough to withstand direct contact with a Reaper's mind.
5. Who's to say that Shepard AI should be final arbiter of all things?
6. The Reapers are still there

Sorry, sorry. I just couldn't resist.

1. That's not necessarily bad. An AI can be much more trustworthy than a human, if programmed based on the galaxy's needs (protecting the galaxy and help it is nice, no?)
2. True, but there is danger in anything. Destroy can lead to people starting to create their own Reapers from peices left or find a way to control the shutted down Reapers.
3. Also true, but the odds it will happen are very small. We now know of only one way to take control of the Reapers, and for that to happen people need the Crucible, and for AIShep to let the person who wants to take control an entrance, like the catalyst did with the elevator.
4. But as you said yourself, that is not Shepard, but an AI, which we can safely assume that has mental understanding of Reaper mind, otherwise I doubt it would have been able to take control.
5. No one did, and that is why (I suppose) no one would let AIShep take control of anything other than the Reapers.
6. Maybe, but AIShep is going to paint them in different colors. They'll be so pretty

Regarding point 4, you misunderstand. Spotless is saying we can't be sure if Shepard's will is strong enough to interface with the Reaper AI to begin with. Not the Shepard AI will.

If you've played Overlord, David Archer went insane just by interfacing with a VI. Imagine interfacing witha Reaper AI.

Check this quote from Project Overlord:

Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

This is exactly what you do in control, you try to give the Reaper AI genuine consciousness through Shepard.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 13 décembre 2012 - 01:29 .

[demersel]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

This is exactly what you do in control, you try to give the Reaper AI genuine consciousness through Shepard.

Ecxept everyone seems to forget that the Reaper AI (or whatever it is) already HAS genuine conciousness of it's own/ 

[DoomsdayDevice]

dorktainian wrote...

:lol::lol:

[BleedingUranium]

griot13 wrote...

^This guy understands^ Legion also lied several times to get what Geth wanted, I think there just telling you what you wanna hear.. I will never deny varibles but people believe what they wanna believe.

You're forgetting the context, Legion was lying because he thought we wouldn't understand. It's like Miranda's lack of honesty about Oriana in her loyalty mission.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 13 décembre 2012 - 01:43 .

[MegumiAzusa]

griot13 wrote...
I will never deny varibles but people believe what they wanna believe.

Which goes both ways ^^

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

griot13 wrote...

^This guy understands^ Legion also lied several times to get what Geth wanted, I think there just telling you what you wanna hear.. I will never deny varibles but people believe what they wanna believe.

You're forgetting the context, Legion was lying because he thought we wouldn't understand. It's like Miranda's lack of honesty about Oriana in her loyalty mission.

"We did not doubt you. We doubted your allies." - Legion

[BleedingUranium]

Doomsday, the main reason I don't think the Geth will ever turn against us is the same reason I think IT is true. Themes. The literal ending destroys the themes of the series, and so would the Geth turning against us. It would render pointless the entire Geth/Quarian story since we first encountered Geth on Eden Prime in ME1, and ruin all the character building and things we've learned from that.

I think one problem is you're trusting Javik too much. While he's right about a lot of things, and that we need to kill the Reapers and never compromise, he's a racist to synthetic life. Just like Ashley has some great advice, but only if you ignore her dislike of aliens. The rest of her advice is great. Javik is racist, don't forget that.

[ZerebusPrime]

Well... I never made that connection. Reaper code uploaded into the Geth, Geth uploaded into the Quarians.... means Reaper code uploaded into the Quarians....

Ok, I think my canon Shep may need to switch directions and wipe the Geth out.

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

griot13 wrote...

^This guy understands^ Legion also lied several times to get what Geth wanted, I think there just telling you what you wanna hear.. I will never deny varibles but people believe what they wanna believe.

You're forgetting the context, Legion was lying because he thought we wouldn't understand. It's like Miranda's lack of honesty about Oriana in her loyalty mission.

"We did not doubt you. We doubted your allies." - Legion

Exactly, if I were a Geth I doubt I'd trust almost any organic, not due to dislike, but due to how the Geth are viewed and have been treated. And these aren't just any organics, they're the Quarians, and they're back to wipe the Geth out. Remember Thane's touching line "You're the first friend I've made in ten years."? Shepard is that to Legion and the Geth, but on a whole other level. He's the first non-hostile organic, and organic ally to all Geth in 300 years.

So yes, I'd trust Shepard and no one else.

[BleedingUranium]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Well... I never made that connection. Reaper code uploaded into the Geth, Geth uploaded into the Quarians.... means Reaper code uploaded into the Quarians....

Ok, I think my canon Shep may need to switch directions and wipe the Geth out.

It's not Reaper code!!!!

DD, if you're going to continue this, please make another thread for it. WNT even has its own thread and it's almost IT, this is totally seperate.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 13 décembre 2012 - 02:00 .

[MegumiAzusa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Doomsday, the main reason I don't think the Geth will ever turn against us is the same reason I think IT is true. Themes. The literal ending destroys the themes of the series, and so would the Geth turning against us. It would render pointless the entire Geth/Quarian story since we first encountered Geth on Eden Prime in ME1, and ruin all the character building and things we've learned from that.

I think one problem is you're trusting Javik too much. While he's right about a lot of things, and that we need to kill the Reapers and never compromise, he's a racist to synthetic life. Just like Ashley has some great advice, but only if you ignore her dislike of aliens. The rest of her advice is great. Javik is racist, don't forget that.

I disagree with the literal ending destroying the themes. Take for example Batarians, basically the Galactic ...holes. But in their view the roles are reversed and genuinely impressed if you help them and are ready to change their views. It is because they don't know of an example of "human nobility" which leads to such prejudice.
Same thing can be applied to the Reapers if literal is indeed real. You may disagree with their methods, but the goal may still be benevolent.

This is only one example of one of the themes supported with the literal interpretation.

[BansheeOwnage]

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

"We did not doubt you. We doubted your allies." - Legion

Exactly, if I were a Geth I doubt I'd trust almost any organic, not due to dislike, but due to how the Geth are viewed and have been treated. And these aren't just any organics, they're the Quarians, and they're back to wipe the Geth out. Remember Thane's touching line "You're the first friend I've made in ten years."? Shepard is that to Legion and the Geth, but on a whole other level. He's the first non-hostile organic, and organic ally to all Geth in 300 years.

So yes, I'd trust Shepard and no one else.

Same. I'd take the geth over the quarians any day. Luckily, peace.

[spotlessvoid]

Megumi just said the Reapers goals may be benevolent. Yeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

[BansheeOwnage]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Doomsday, the main reason I don't think the Geth will ever turn against us is the same reason I think IT is true. Themes. The literal ending destroys the themes of the series, and so would the Geth turning against us. It would render pointless the entire Geth/Quarian story since we first encountered Geth on Eden Prime in ME1, and ruin all the character building and things we've learned from that.

I think one problem is you're trusting Javik too much. While he's right about a lot of things, and that we need to kill the Reapers and never compromise, he's a racist to synthetic life. Just like Ashley has some great advice, but only if you ignore her dislike of aliens. The rest of her advice is great. Javik is racist, don't forget that.

I disagree with the literal ending destroying the themes. Take for example Batarians, basically the Galactic ...holes. But in their view the roles are reversed and genuinely impressed if you help them and are ready to change their views. It is because they don't know of an example of "human nobility" which leads to such prejudice.
Same thing can be applied to the Reapers if literal is indeed real. You may disagree with their methods, but the goal may still be benevolent.

This is only one example of one of the themes supported with the literal interpretation.

Not true. The hegemony were ***holes, yes. The normal average batarian is a nice normal person. EDI highlights this. And you're right, there is definitely a degree of letting go of differences and grudges to work together, but I'm just saying they weren't impressed - they were freed.

Also, hello Megumi, and everyone else.

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Doomsday, the main reason I don't think the Geth will ever turn against us is the same reason I think IT is true. Themes. The literal ending destroys the themes of the series, and so would the Geth turning against us. It would render pointless the entire Geth/Quarian story since we first encountered Geth on Eden Prime in ME1, and ruin all the character building and things we've learned from that.

I think one problem is you're trusting Javik too much. While he's right about a lot of things, and that we need to kill the Reapers and never compromise, he's a racist to synthetic life. Just like Ashley has some great advice, but only if you ignore her dislike of aliens. The rest of her advice is great. Javik is racist, don't forget that.

I disagree with the literal ending destroying the themes. Take for example Batarians, basically the Galactic ...holes. But in their view the roles are reversed and genuinely impressed if you help them and are ready to change their views. It is because they don't know of an example of "human nobility" which leads to such prejudice.
Same thing can be applied to the Reapers if literal is indeed real. You may disagree with their methods, but the goal may still be benevolent.

This is only one example of one of the themes supported with the literal interpretation.

I agree with what you said about the Batarians, that's a great example of what I was talking about, but the idea that it could apply to the Reapers is destroying established themes.

The Reapers are Sauron and his Orcs; they are the embodiment of evil, nothing more.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 13 décembre 2012 - 02:15 .

[spotlessvoid]

I must kill you to help you, don't you see?

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 13 décembre 2012 - 02:16 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Megumi just said the Reapers goals may be benevolent. Yeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

To the Reapers, they are right in this situation. That happens in every war. Each side views themselves as the ones in the right while the other is wrong.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 13 décembre 2012 - 02:20 .

[MegumiAzusa]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I must kill you to help you, don't you see?

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 13 décembre 2012 - 02:25 .

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I must kill you to help you, don't you see?

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it.

You could have just said "hubris", it would have saved you some typing.

[401 Kill]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I must kill you to help you, don't you see?

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it.

We have 9 days until the Reaper invasion. We shall imagine it soon enough.

[MegumiAzusa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I must kill you to help you, don't you see?

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it.

You could have just said "hubris", it would have saved you some typing.

That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.

[BansheeOwnage]

401 Kill wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I must kill you to help you, don't you see?

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it.

We have 9 days until the Reaper invasion. We shall imagine it soon enough.

Ha! Awesome. Reaper invasion is our version of a zombie apocalypse I think. If there is one, the IT thread will band together and fight as one!

@Blur Haha! Truly awesome!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 13 décembre 2012 - 02:29 .