80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

RavenEyry wrote...

Even if thers's only 50 reapers conventional victory isn't possible. It's simple numbers.

What? No way, we'd crush them.

[Rifneno]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Son of a batarian.  The conventional victory theory is like the herpes of discussion.  No matter what you do to it, no matter how many times you do it, it always comes back.  Always.

Now you sound like Megumi. Just because you don't think conventional victory is possible doesn't make it so.

Yeah, just me and first grade math.

[umadcommander]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Son of a batarian.  The conventional victory theory is like the herpes of discussion.  No matter what you do to it, no matter how many times you do it, it always comes back.  Always.

Now you sound like Megumi. Just because you don't think conventional victory is possible doesn't make it so.

im with rif on this one, if we threw the fleets at the reapers we'd probably destroy about a quater of them at most (if there were 740-1000 sovereign reapers)

[DoomsdayDevice]

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Son of a batarian.  The conventional victory theory is like the herpes of discussion.  No matter what you do to it, no matter how many times you do it, it always comes back.  Always.

Now you sound like Megumi. Just because you don't think conventional victory is possible doesn't make it so.

Yeah, just me and first grade math.

Conventional victory is a very elastic concept if you define it as 'anything not involving the Crucible'. Doesn't mean we have to take them all head on, it just means we don't use a magical 'Reapers Off' button.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 14 décembre 2012 - 04:01 .

[paxxton]

Nice. Firebase Condor is one of my favorite maps in MP. Survive 5 Waves? Shouldn't be hard.

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Son of a batarian.  The conventional victory theory is like the herpes of discussion.  No matter what you do to it, no matter how many times you do it, it always comes back.  Always.

Now you sound like Megumi. Just because you don't think conventional victory is possible doesn't make it so.

Yeah, just me and first grade math.

Based on what? We don't actually know how many Reapers there are. There's some circumstantial evidence supporting "Not very many", and no evidence supporting "A lot".

[Rifneno]

BleedingUranium wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Even if thers's only 50 reapers conventional victory isn't possible. It's simple numbers.

What? No way, we'd crush them.

All Council races combined had 85 dreadnoughts before the war.  Multiple dreadnoughts have been destroyed in the war.  It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down ONE capital ship.  Look at the galaxy map.  See those things it's covered with?  Those are Reaper capital ships.  Now go to Earth!  See all those squid bastards?  Probably hundreds of them?  Those are Reaper capital ships.

Your idea is bad, and you should feel bad about being bad.

[Arashi08]

I have to agree with Arian, we all used to get along here; even if we disagreed we usually did so in a civil manner. Now all of a sudden we've let our personal interpretations get the better of us and allowed disagreements to hurt our pride. Megumi is in the wrong for being insulting and obnoxious but then so is everyone else who responded to her the same. Actions cause reactions after all. This stupid argument was the product of both sides.

Please don't turn this thread into another battleground like all the others on BSN.

[RavenEyry]

I was about to mention the dreadnaught thing but Rif beat me to it.

The only way to win would be to have a group of dreadnaughts ambush single reapers until there are none left, which is completely unviable because they don't travel alone and supplying the 'hunting fleet' would be a logistical nightmare.

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Even if thers's only 50 reapers conventional victory isn't possible. It's simple numbers.

What? No way, we'd crush them.

All Council races combined had 85 dreadnoughts before the war.  Multiple dreadnoughts have been destroyed in the war.  It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down ONE capital ship.  Look at the galaxy map.  See those things it's covered with?  Those are Reaper capital ships.  Now go to Earth!  See all those squid bastards?  Probably hundreds of them?  Those are Reaper capital ships.

Your idea is bad, and you should feel bad about being bad.

Raw numbers don't tell you anything, esspecially when those numbers are far from accurate. Even if you knew exactly how many ships each side has, you can't just go "We must have exactly 4 times the number of dreadnoughts as the Reapers", that's silly.

Hubris.

Do you know why we'll defeat the Reapers conventionally? Same reason that when Shepard wakes up, he'll have beaten indoctrination for good; we're told it's impossible.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 14 décembre 2012 - 04:08 .

[CoolioThane]

I don't know. I think with the IT DLC we'll get something happen that means the Reapers become weaker and easier to take out. I think with all of the resources we have with regards to "EMS" we could stand a chance of conventional victory based solely off of what actually occurs with regards to the Crucible.

[Rifneno]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Even if thers's only 50 reapers conventional victory isn't possible. It's simple numbers.

What? No way, we'd crush them.

All Council races combined had 85 dreadnoughts before the war.  Multiple dreadnoughts have been destroyed in the war.  It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down ONE capital ship.  Look at the galaxy map.  See those things it's covered with?  Those are Reaper capital ships.  Now go to Earth!  See all those squid bastards?  Probably hundreds of them?  Those are Reaper capital ships.

Your idea is bad, and you should feel bad about being bad.

Raw numbers don't tell you anything, esspecially when those numbers are far from accurate. Even if you knew exactly how many ships each side has, you can't just go "We must have exactly 4 times the number of dreadnoughts as the Reapers", that's silly.

Hubris.

Right.  The fact their raw military power outnumbers our so many times over means nothing because you say it means nothing.

Let me guess, next you're going to quote USA-Vietnam or USSR-Afghanistan without understanding the difference between trying to occupy an enemy nation and trying to wipe it out.  That's usually where this goes.

[Arashi08]

As to the conventional victory argument. the Codex states that theoretically the Reapers COULD be defeated using certain methods like Hit-and-Run tactics or hitting their troop transports and slowing down harvesting, but you also have to take into consideration that these tactics would take a long time to show any real impact in favor of us. by that time the galactic economy will have likely dried up and morale will likely have fallen pitifully low. And defeating them head-on is pretty much impossible unless the Reapers made tons of mistakes.

So conventional victory does seem less likely on a long-term scale when you factor in that info imo.

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Even if thers's only 50 reapers conventional victory isn't possible. It's simple numbers.

What? No way, we'd crush them.

All Council races combined had 85 dreadnoughts before the war.  Multiple dreadnoughts have been destroyed in the war.  It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down ONE capital ship.  Look at the galaxy map.  See those things it's covered with?  Those are Reaper capital ships.  Now go to Earth!  See all those squid bastards?  Probably hundreds of them?  Those are Reaper capital ships.

Your idea is bad, and you should feel bad about being bad.

Raw numbers don't tell you anything, esspecially when those numbers are far from accurate. Even if you knew exactly how many ships each side has, you can't just go "We must have exactly 4 times the number of dreadnoughts as the Reapers", that's silly.

Hubris.

Right.  The fact their raw military power outnumbers our so many times over means nothing because you say it means nothing.

Let me guess, next you're going to quote USA-Vietnam or USSR-Afghanistan without understanding the difference between trying to occupy an enemy nation and trying to wipe it out.  That's usually where this goes.

A couple dozen fighters against a Death Star? Lord of the Rings does this multiple times. Take your pick, in fiction this is always what happens.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 14 décembre 2012 - 04:12 .

[Arashi08]

evil evil double posts!

[RavenEyry]

BleedingUranium wrote...

A couple dozen fighters against a Death Star? Take your pick, in fiction this is always what happens.

Reapers don't have a simple weakpoint to exploit or it'd have been done by now.

[Rifneno]

BleedingUranium wrote...

A couple dozen fighters against a Death Star? Lord of the Rings does this multiple times. Take your pick, in fiction this is always what happens.

So now we're going to use other stories written by other people working for other companies as proof.  That's not braindamagingly stupid or anything.

[Andromidius]

I'll go with "conventional victory is impossible, but military victory of some kind isn't" - its just very unlikely. Something big needs to change, because the Reapers simply outmuscle everyone as it is.

[Xd2delo]

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Even if thers's only 50 reapers conventional victory isn't possible. It's simple numbers.

What? No way, we'd crush them.

All Council races combined had 85 dreadnoughts before the war.  Multiple dreadnoughts have been destroyed in the war.  It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down ONE capital ship.  Look at the galaxy map.  See those things it's covered with?  Those are Reaper capital ships.  Now go to Earth!  See all those squid bastards?  Probably hundreds of them?  Those are Reaper capital ships.

Your idea is bad, and you should feel bad about being bad.

That would appear to create an infinite loop of badness. 
10 feel bad
20 if feel = bad then goto 10

In terms of the math, let's assume there are 1000 Sovereign class Reapers; that assumption may be off but it's clearly > 50 and less than billions.

It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down 1 Sovereign class.  But a Sovereign class can only be constructed at the consummation of  cycle.  Construction of a dreadnaught presumably takes much less time.  So if we can hold out long enough, attrition is our friend.  Of course, holding out long enough to build 3-4,000 dreadnaughts might be tricky.  Our economic resources are limited and diminishing.

So what might ameliorate that?  A couple things: technological advancement from studying reaper casualties (maybe we get down to a 2:1 ratio!), and the fact that, presumably, those dreadnaught numbers were kept artificially low by naval treaties (a la this: http://history.state...NavalConference check out the Five-Power treaty for the relevant part).

EDIT: Not saying conventional victory is possible, just trying to structure the discussion slightly.

Modifié par Xd2delo, 14 décembre 2012 - 04:15 .

[paxxton]

CoolioThane wrote...

I don't know. I think with the IT DLC we'll get something happen that means the Reapers become weaker and easier to take out. I think with all of the resources we have with regards to "EMS" we could stand a chance of conventional victory based solely off of what actually occurs with regards to the Crucible.

I'm inclined to think that the IT DLC will feature the simplest solution. Shepard wakes up from the attempted indoctrination and continues onto the real Citadel where he opens the arms. The Crucible docks and fires. And everyone lived happily ever after. The End. Somewhere in between there's going to be a boss fight or even two.

Not exactly what I'd like but it's quite reasonable to anticipate that.

[Andromidius]

paxxton wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

I don't know. I think with the IT DLC we'll get something happen that means the Reapers become weaker and easier to take out. I think with all of the resources we have with regards to "EMS" we could stand a chance of conventional victory based solely off of what actually occurs with regards to the Crucible.

I'm inclined to think that the IT DLC will feature the simplest solution. Shepard wakes up from the attempted indoctrination and continues onto the real Citadel where he opens the arms. The Crucible docks and fires. And everyone lived happily ever after. The End. Somewhere in between there's going to be a boss fight or even two.

Not exactly what I'd like but it's quite reasonable to anticipate that.

Though that would essentially make the whole plot pointless if we just go and do exactly the same thing that happened in the hallucination.

It would still have all the problems with it being a Deus Ex Machina, Reaper Off Button and Space Magic.

[MegumiAzusa]

paxxton wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

I don't know. I think with the IT DLC we'll get something happen that means the Reapers become weaker and easier to take out. I think with all of the resources we have with regards to "EMS" we could stand a chance of conventional victory based solely off of what actually occurs with regards to the Crucible.

I'm inclined to think that the IT DLC will feature the simplest solution. Shepard wakes up from the attempted indoctrination and continues onto the real Citadel where he opens the arms. The Crucible docks and fires. And everyone lived happily ever after. The End. Somewhere in between there's going to be a boss fight or even two.

Not exactly what I'd like but it's quite reasonable to anticipate that.

Or Shep is waking up seeing Harby teebagging her.

[RavenEyry]

Xd2delo wrote...

It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down 1 Sovereign class.  But a Sovereign class can only be constructed at the consummation of  cycle.  Construction of a dreadnaught presumably takes much less time.  So if we can hold out long enough, attrition is our friend.  Of course, holding out long enough to build 3-4,000 dreadnaughts might be tricky.  Our economic resources are limited and diminishing.

And remember that Earth, Thessia and the batarian homeworld have fallen, and Palaven is barely better off. There just isn't the infrastructure to pump out hundreds of dreadnaughts. Or any for that matter.

Conventional victory may have been possible if the entirety of the Milky Way's production was put into warships over the last three years and even then maybe not. Dreads are huge.

[Xd2delo]

RavenEyry wrote...

Xd2delo wrote...

It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down 1 Sovereign class.  But a Sovereign class can only be constructed at the consummation of  cycle.  Construction of a dreadnaught presumably takes much less time.  So if we can hold out long enough, attrition is our friend.  Of course, holding out long enough to build 3-4,000 dreadnaughts might be tricky.  Our economic resources are limited and diminishing.

And remember that Earth, Thessia and the batarian homeworld have fallen, and Palaven is barely better off. There just isn't the infrastructure to pump out hundreds of dreadnaughts. Or any for that matter.

Conventional victory may have been possible if the entirety of the Milky Way's production was put into warships over the last three years and even then maybe not. Dreads are huge.

Yes, I suppose "might be tricky" was something of an understatement.

[ThisOneIsPunny]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

I don't know. I think with the IT DLC we'll get something happen that means the Reapers become weaker and easier to take out. I think with all of the resources we have with regards to "EMS" we could stand a chance of conventional victory based solely off of what actually occurs with regards to the Crucible.

I'm inclined to think that the IT DLC will feature the simplest solution. Shepard wakes up from the attempted indoctrination and continues onto the real Citadel where he opens the arms. The Crucible docks and fires. And everyone lived happily ever after. The End. Somewhere in between there's going to be a boss fight or even two.

Not exactly what I'd like but it's quite reasonable to anticipate that.

Or Shep is waking up seeing Harby teebagging her.

That might be a little more than just soul crushing.