80611 réponses à ce sujet

[estebanus]

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...
I disagree with the aspect of there even being a right choice. Because there truly isn't All have their ups and downs.

There are 'ups' to being indoctrinated?

Don't state it as fact that Shepard is indoctrinated. Because honestly, we don't know. 

As I said, I'm arguing from a literal POV. That means, forget indoctrination entirely.

[masster blaster]

Estebanus but don't you get it Bioware is not going to say " Oh if you pick this, well you die/fail", and I remember them stating that they wanted to do something other than a mission fail, and in reject/refuse Shepard did not end the Reaper threat. He let the Reapers live to kill everyone that Shepard tried to save. Also read the last page Estebanus about what Leviathan can do to Shepard, since we know that Leviathan get's into Shepards head.

[RavenEyry]

estebanus wrote...
As I said, I'm arguing from a literal POV. That means, forget indoctrination entirely.

I don't really think of literal much because it makes no sense. Reapers still exist in control/synthesis. That is not a good thing.

[estebanus]

masster blaster wrote...

Estebanus but don't you get it Bioware is not going to say " Oh if you pick this, well you die/fail", and I remember them stating that they wanted to do something other than a mission fail, and in reject/refuse Shepard did not end the Reaper threat. He let the Reapers live to kill everyone that Shepard tried to save. Also read the last page Estebanus about what Leviathan can do to Shepard, since we know that Leviathan get's into Shepards head.

F*ck it, I'm arguing from a literal POV here, don't you get it?! That means, indoctrination isn't happening!

Shepard doesn't end the reaper threat in refuse, no, but Liara does. And she was only able to do this through Shepard, get it?! So as a matter of fact, Shepard STILL saves the galaxy in refuse, just not the way you'd think.

Have you ever listened to Shepard's speech in refuse? No? Well, then you sure as hell can't say what Shepard is fighting for.

Modifié par estebanus, 07 août 2012 - 06:34 .

[Home run MF]

TSA_383 wrote...

http://social.biowar.../index/13557262
New thread by me! Yeeeaaaah!

TSA you might wanna credit the original poster of that file, who already has a thread for it, and I provided the link?
You are repeating info

[estebanus]

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...
As I said, I'm arguing from a literal POV. That means, forget indoctrination entirely.

I don't really think of literal much because it makes no sense. Reapers still exist in control/synthesis. That is not a good thing.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's no right choice in anything.

[RavenEyry]

estebanus wrote...
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's no right choice in anything.

All choices are bad, but one kills the reapers, so it's the best. There's really no two ways about it.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...
I disagree with the aspect of there even being a right choice. Because there truly isn't All have their ups and downs.

There are 'ups' to being indoctrinated?

Don't state it as fact that Shepard is indoctrinated. Because honestly, we don't know. 

As I said, I'm arguing from a literal POV. That means, forget indoctrination entirely.

From a litteral POV there is no real ups and downs either that balances out the choices. It goes from worst to best according to Catalyst, starting with rejct, moving to Destroy, onwards to Control and finally Synthesis. Laid out litterally thats is the progresseion of best choices with few variances.

Sure someone who is power hungry might look at Control as the best choice and those (few) who dont give a damn about EDI and the Geth might look at Destroy more positively, but from a litteral point of view Synthesis is without a doubt the best choice.

You end the cycle forever and cause the perfection of all life everywhere simply by the the death of Shepard something which will happen in all the choices according to the Catalyst.

[estebanus]

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's no right choice in anything.

All choices are bad, but one kills the reapers, so it's the best. There's really no two ways about it.

Another one helps galactic civilization rebuild faster. Another one creates an utopia.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's no right choice in anything.

All choices are bad, but one kills the reapers, so it's the best. There's really no two ways about it.

Another one helps galactic civilization rebuild faster. Another one creates an utopia.

The utopia rebuilds as fast as Control considering the Reapers are around and friendly in both...

[masster blaster]

Estebanus and I am talking as an ITer, as are you are talking about from a Literalist point of view.

So in a way we are both right and wrong, but you know as well as I know that in the breath scene Shepard is not on the Citadel. And to prove it. Bioware never said it's on Earth. Am I right.

They always say it could be Shepards final breath, or Shepard could be on the Citadel.

But not once did they ever say Shepard could be on Earth.

We know that Shepard is surrounded by corcret, but Bioware calles it rubble.

[RavenEyry]

estebanus wrote...

Another one helps galactic civilization rebuild faster..

But won't stop it being destroyed by reapers again.

Another one creates an utopia

?

[estebanus]

masster blaster wrote...

Estebanus and I am talking as an ITer, as are you are talking about from a Literalist point of view.

So in a way we are both right and wrong, but you know as well as I know that in the breath scene Shepard is not on the Citadel. And to prove it. Bioware never said it's on Earth. Am I right.

They always say it could be Shepards final breath, or Shepard could be on the Citadel.

But not once did they ever say Shepard could be on Earth.

We know that Shepard is surrounded by corcret, but Bioware calles it rubble.

Ha. Ha. HA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

What kinda reasoning is that? "They never said it was on Earth, so it must be on Earth?"

No, I think that Shepard's on the Citadel.

[estebanus]

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Another one helps galactic civilization rebuild faster..

But won't stop it being destroyed by reapers again.

Another one creates an utopia

?

1. No proof that the reapers will do so. That's just fatalism.

2. Synthesis.

Modifié par estebanus, 07 août 2012 - 06:47 .

[TSA_383]

Home run MF wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

http://social.biowar.../index/13557262
New thread by me! Yeeeaaaah!

TSA you might wanna credit the original poster of that file, who already has a thread for it, and I provided the link?
You are repeating info

I'll add a credit to the top of the OP.

[masster blaster]

But Estebanus can the Literalist explain why everyone magicaly works with the Reapers.

Also Shepard is all talk in refuse/reject. That's it. Shepard does nothing. Not even radio Hackett, or call the Normandy. No Shepard gives up and thus the Reapers end the Indcotrination process because Shepard is broken mindless person after the Catalyst says " SO BE IT.L

[RavenEyry]

estebanus wrote...

1. No proof that the reapers will do so. That's just fatalism.

2. Synthesis.

1.No proof they wont.
2.?

[Simon_Says]

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...
Not true. Destroy is no more "right" than control. Both are very grey moral areas. By saying destroy is the only right choice, you invalidate all those who chose differently.

Destroy is the right choice. I'm sorry but I can't put it any other way.

I disagree with the aspect of there even being a right choice. Because there truly isn't All have their ups and downs.

Destroy is still the most morally reliable of the options presented. The prophecy of future suffering by the Catalyst is doubtful to actually happen, given what we see during the course of the trilogy. And the loss of synthetic life is nothing that EDI or the geth weren't willing to accept. Also, EDI and the geth may be rebuilt, since it was possible to bring Shepard back. And even without Shepard, the galaxy can be left in good hands (Wrex, Tali, Hacket, etc.).

Destroy is shown to leave the galaxy devestated. But it's nothing that the galaxy can't handle, and it's nothing that's unnacceptable. Control and Synthesis are far less reliable. They can be better solutions for the galaxy but they could also be far, far worse.

Control is basically an acceptance of the idea that Hobbes was right, with all the issues associated with that. Control can also easily turn to an Orwellian dystopia if Reaper!Shepard starts to deviate from Shepard's intended legacy, either by simply not being Shepard or by losing perspective, empathy, plain ol' sanity, etc.. Unfortunately such scearios disturbingly likely given what we know about previous failures in attempts to control alien forms of life, including not only the reaper cycles themselves but the failures of Grunt's mental imprinting and the near-apocalypse caused by Project Overlord.

Control could be the best solution as far as the galaxy is concerned. The problem is we only have that word 'could'. It could be the best. It could alternatively be the worst.

And we all know how horrific Synthesis is. Not just how horrific it could be.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 07 août 2012 - 06:51 .

[estebanus]

masster blaster wrote...

But Estebanus can the Literalist explain why everyone magicaly works with the Reapers.

Also Shepard is all talk in refuse/reject. That's it. Shepard does nothing. Not even radio Hackett, or call the Normandy. No Shepard gives up and thus the Reapers end the Indcotrination process because Shepard is broken mindless person after the Catalyst says " SO BE IT.L

1. Of course they can. The reapers cease their harvest by realizing that organic life finally has achieved synthesis.

2. What does that have to do with my earlier point? Shepard is very clear about what s/he fights for in refuse.

[masster blaster]

Really you think that Shepard is on the Citadel, when Biiware never told us that it isn't possible for Shepard not to be on Earth no they didn't.

People can argue " Well ofcousre Shepard is on the Citadel, but can they explain why Bioware does not say Shepard is not on Earth, thus end IT, but they didn't.

[masster blaster]

Estebanus Shepard does not take action, but watch everyone die. That's it nothing but Shepard telling the kid to f*** off, and only to be put in his/her place, when the catalyst says so be it.

[estebanus]

Simon_Says wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...
Not true. Destroy is no more "right" than control. Both are very grey moral areas. By saying destroy is the only right choice, you invalidate all those who chose differently.

Destroy is the right choice. I'm sorry but I can't put it any other way.

I disagree with the aspect of there even being a right choice. Because there truly isn't All have their ups and downs.

Destroy is still the most morally reliable of the options presented. The future suffering prophecies by the Catalyst is doubtful to actually happen. The loss of synthetic life is nothing that EDI or the geth weren't willing to accept. EDI and the geth may be rebuilt, since it was possible to bring Shepard back. And even without Shepard, the galaxy can be left in good hands (Wrex, Tali, Hacket, etc.).

Control and Synthesis are far less reliable. They can be better solutions for the galaxy but they could also be far, far worse.

Control is basically an acceptance of the idea that Hobbes was right, with all the issues associated with that. Control can also easily turn to an Orwellian dystopia if Reaper!Shepard starts to deviate from Shepard's intended legacy, either by simply not being Shepard or by losing perspective, empathy, plain ol' sanity, etc.. Unfortunately such scearios disturbingly likely given what we know about previous failures in attempts to control alien forms of life, including not only the reaper cycles themselves but the failures of Grunt's mental imprinting and the near-apocalypse caused by Project Overlord.

Control could be the best solution as far as the galaxy is concerned. The problem is we only have that word 'could'. It could be the best. It could alternatively be the worst.

And we all know how horrific Synthesis is. Not just how horrific it could be.

I know. "Too many variables", as a certain doctor would say. I'm just trying to gather feedback on how to battle control and synthesis supporters when it comes to an argument. Thanks for the answer! I'm gonna try and use this in the "ending support thread" now.

[estebanus]

masster blaster wrote...

Really you think that Shepard is on the Citadel, when Biiware never told us that it isn't possible for Shepard not to be on Earth no they didn't.

People can argue " Well ofcousre Shepard is on the Citadel, but can they explain why Bioware does not say Shepard is not on Earth, thus end IT, but they didn't.

*facepalm*

BioWare says that the IT is a viable interpretation. By killing the IT, that statement wouldn't make much sense, would it now?

[estebanus]

masster blaster wrote...

Estebanus Shepard does not take action, but watch everyone die. That's it nothing but Shepard telling the kid to f*** off, and only to be put in his/her place, when the catalyst says so be it.

What does this have to do with what I said? Nothing.

[masster blaster]

Estebanus I was not talking about the Reapers, I was talking about the racies of this cycle. Do you honestly believe that Javik would allow for this to happen, and everyone else to be nice to the Reapers, after killing/harvesting their loved onces, burning their home'Ghome worlds, and for the deaths of trillions in each cycle.