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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#68051
Arian Dynas

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byne wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Can we talk about something else?


Does synthesis make VIs alive too?

Once they're alive, do they magically gain sentience?

Once they gain sentience, are they just trapped in a slowly decaying body bound by their old programming, unable to do anything else?

These are the sorts of questions we should ask.


Well, we could discuss my own points I made about the seperation between life (the ability to make free choices) and half-synthetic, non-life (the collectors, bound and unable to make thier own choices)

#68052
lex0r11

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Arian Dynas wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I said this yesterday:

If plants gain sentience, then autumn must be a hellish apocalypse.


The Cycle can not be broken.


Naw, just yearly hibernation.



WE ARE THE HARBINGER OF YOUR PERFECTION.


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#68053
paxxton

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Hey, Arian. Are you planning on posting any walls of text?

#68054
Arian Dynas

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I have no need right now.

#68055
CmdrShep80

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lex0r11 wrote...

byne wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

So about the Operation this week...do you get the Survived 5 Waves medal for surviving 5 waves in a match overall, or by surviving 5 waves without getting incapped?


I believe it must be 5 waves in a row with a succesfull extraction.


Nope. The operation specifies extraction isnt needed.


I have failed.

:unsure:


LOL!  You saved the Alamo 

#68056
paxxton

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Well, too bad. But if you find the need, feel free to post it in the thread. Posted Image

Modifié par paxxton, 16 décembre 2012 - 02:06 .


#68057
byne

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lex0r11 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I said this yesterday:

If plants gain sentience, then autumn must be a hellish apocalypse.


The Cycle can not be broken.


Naw, just yearly hibernation.



WE ARE THE HARBINGER OF YOUR PERFECTION.


Posted Image


Posted Image

#68058
Rankincountry

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Arian Dynas wrote...

byne wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Can we talk about something else?


Does synthesis make VIs alive too?

Once they're alive, do they magically gain sentience?

Once they gain sentience, are they just trapped in a slowly decaying body bound by their old programming, unable to do anything else?

These are the sorts of questions we should ask.


Well, we could discuss my own points I made about the seperation between life (the ability to make free choices) and half-synthetic, non-life (the collectors, bound and unable to make thier own choices)


From what I understand of a VI, it's more like a normal computer system than a self-aware entity like EDI, that presents the operator with a familiar and intuitive way of interfacing - basically a sort of automaton. Of course, enough dumb programmes or machines working together can become an intelligent system (or "system of systems") like, say, ants. So one could speculate from a literal standpoint that if synthesis resulted in VIs being networked together that it might result in life under the new rules. However we're not given enough information to work this out.

I'm not quite sure where this fits into Arian's scheme (it's late and I've had a lot of wine) but I do agree that in Mass Effect, synthetic and organic beings are presented as doing fine in their own right, but attempts to combine them tend to either result in huskified slaves or an Overlord-style catastrophe. Nothing anywhere prior to the end of ME3 says that synthesis is a good idea - quite the opposite in fact.

What gets me though is that we see organic and synthetic combined in Overlord, reaper ground forces and the reapers themselves and each time it's basically a grotesque and horrifying affront to nature that would make Dr Frankenstein wince. But then we're expected to believe Starbrat when he says that having the crucible means a new, lovely form of unicornyrainbowybunnyrabbityhappyponysmiley synthesis is possible that clearly wasn't, say, three minutes previously. And are also meant to accept that he would totally explain how it works but he hasn't got time. Seems legit...

#68059
CmdrShep80

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byne wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Can we talk about something else?


Does synthesis make VIs alive too?

Once they're alive, do they magically gain sentience?

Once they gain sentience, are they just trapped in a slowly decaying body bound by their old programming, unable to do anything else?

These are the sorts of questions we should ask.


huh, that's an interesting question

#68060
ategio

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 if some of you are interested in the question of AI i recommend some of the classics like John R. Searle and his chinese room experiment. Hes basically saying that sentient beings differ from AI because the latter works exclusively on a syntactically level. that means they are simply connecting symbols with pre defined rules. they dont understand what they do because objects (words, symbols...) dont have a meaning to them. 
changing dna of a synthetic (dunno how thats supposed to work  :huh:) would either mean reprogramming which doesnt solve the problem or giving them consciousness (soul,brain etc). Shepards "energy" would then what? split between all synthetics and all synthetics to come? fantastic...

#68061
acidic-ph0

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byne wrote...

Why is the only difference to synthetics green lights?

It seems to me that even in the literal version, it implies that the war was ended by finally wiping out pure organics. Which seems to run counter to the Godchild's stated goal.


This is a really good point!

If the catalyst has been trying to preserve all life in the galaxy then synthesis would be horrible @_@ I mean, we know it detsroys diversity in general, but I never considered the fact that there will never be any more truly organic species in our galaxy ever again once that green **** hits the fan/relays. 

That's a very good catch sir, and probably one of the biggest reasons to hate that ending.

#68062
ZeCollectorDestroya

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Why is this thread still going?

#68063
gunslinger_ruiz

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Don't do it!

#68064
Hrothdane

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ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

Why is this thread still going?


Space magic.

#68065
spotlessvoid

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ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

Why is this thread still going?

Poly-gravitational resonance

#68066
lex0r11

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Hrothdane wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

Why is this thread still going?


Space magic.



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#68067
BansheeOwnage

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Arian! Hrothdane! Good to see you both! <3

#68068
BansheeOwnage

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byne wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I said this yesterday:

If plants gain sentience, then autumn must be a hellish apocalypse.


The Cycle can not be broken.


Naw, just yearly hibernation.



WE ARE THE HARBINGER OF YOUR PERFECTION.





Posted Image

My Harbinger Epilogue has Harby talking about gardening and blossoming.

#68069
spotlessvoid

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ategio wrote...

 if some of you are interested in the question of AI i recommend some of the classics like John R. Searle and his chinese room experiment. Hes basically saying that sentient beings differ from AI because the latter works exclusively on a syntactically level. that means they are simply connecting symbols with pre defined rules. they dont understand what they do because objects (words, symbols...) dont have a meaning to them. 
changing dna of a synthetic (dunno how thats supposed to work
 :huh:) would either mean reprogramming which doesnt solve the problem or giving them consciousness (soul,brain etc). Shepards "energy" would then what? split between all synthetics and all synthetics to come? fantastic...


The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the Neocortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions. What makes the Neocortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source. As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the Neocortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented. In fact, the Neocortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system. So do we define organic as the nervous system of a biological organism, or simply as any cognitive system made of organic matter?

I think that you are assigning chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans.
It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another day.
Basically, the "intellect" section of our brain would process information similarly to an artificial intelligence, the difference being the presence of emotional and instinctive processes in other parts of the brain. The biggest questions ultimately come down to whether empathy is an inherently logical conclusion, the risk/reward of simulated emotional responses, and if and where the sentience/intelligence limit is set.

#68070
BansheeOwnage

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spotlessvoid wrote...

ategio wrote...

 if some of you are interested in the question of AI i recommend some of the classics like John R. Searle and his chinese room experiment. Hes basically saying that sentient beings differ from AI because the latter works exclusively on a syntactically level. that means they are simply connecting symbols with pre defined rules. they dont understand what they do because objects (words, symbols...) dont have a meaning to them. 
changing dna of a synthetic (dunno how thats supposed to work
 :huh:) would either mean reprogramming which doesnt solve the problem or giving them consciousness (soul,brain etc). Shepards "energy" would then what? split between all synthetics and all synthetics to come? fantastic...


The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the Neocortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions. What makes the Neocortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source. As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the Neocortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented. In fact, the Neocortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system. So do we define organic as the nervous system of a biological organism, or simply as any cognitive system made of organic matter?

I think that you are assigning chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans.
It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another day.
Basically, the "intellect" section of our brain would process information similarly to an artificial intelligence, the difference being the presence of emotional and instinctive processes in other parts of the brain. The biggest questions ultimately come down to whether empathy is an inherently logical conclusion, the risk/reward of simulated emotional responses, and if and where the sentience/intelligence limit is set.

I remember reading this. Good post.

#68071
TheConstantOne

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You know, while the plant topic is still relatively fresh... just because the plants have circuit boards doesn't mean they're sapient. Far from it. The synthesis beam (if taken literally) just alters genetic composition by attaching what appears to be nanites to anything with an organic DNA sequence. Plants are organic and, therefore, nanites attach to them. But this doesn't bring consciousness to the plant...that would require a lot more than what synthesis does which is essentially provide a circuit vitamin supplement to all future salads.

Synthesis may be the most ambiguously defined of all the endings in the literal interpretation but I think its time to stop weaving more bizarre consequences onto it. In the literal sense, it doesn't stop evolution and it doesn't create a utopia. It merely provides another avenue for organic life to adapt to their environment. And given the nature of life and how conflict is inevitable, the only way it could create a "utopia" would be by establishing a decisive dystopia of absolute slaves. This is possible but that falls within the bounds of the IT interpretation and not the literalist take.

In short, while I do think synthesis is introduced poorly, we should at least portray the literal interpretation a little more sensibly

#68072
Krimzie

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spotlessvoid wrote...

ategio wrote...

 if some of you are interested in the question of AI i recommend some of the classics like John R. Searle and his chinese room experiment. Hes basically saying that sentient beings differ from AI because the latter works exclusively on a syntactically level. that means they are simply connecting symbols with pre defined rules. they dont understand what they do because objects (words, symbols...) dont have a meaning to them. 
changing dna of a synthetic (dunno how thats supposed to work
 :huh:) would either mean reprogramming which doesnt solve the problem or giving them consciousness (soul,brain etc). Shepards "energy" would then what? split between all synthetics and all synthetics to come? fantastic...


The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the Neocortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions. What makes the Neocortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source. As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the Neocortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented. In fact, the Neocortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system. So do we define organic as the nervous system of a biological organism, or simply as any cognitive system made of organic matter?

I think that you are assigning chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans.
It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another day.
Basically, the "intellect" section of our brain would process information similarly to an artificial intelligence, the difference being the presence of emotional and instinctive processes in other parts of the brain. The biggest questions ultimately come down to whether empathy is an inherently logical conclusion, the risk/reward of simulated emotional responses, and if and where the sentience/intelligence limit is set.


Dude, this was fun to read. Bolded the last part just because it's awesome. Thanks! I think the risk/reward of empathy is such an interesting concept -- that which might be logical is often not what is emotionally coherent to us. Of course, empathetic mores might cause as many problems as they solve, depending on the societal structures that influence who/what deserves our empathy, but I gotta say... I do prefer illogically emotion-driven decisions over calculated and informed decisions from time to time. Then again, I'm organic and I like my chaos, please and thank you. :D

Annnnnyway, back to editing. You know I used "interrupts" instead of "interruptions" for about six pages? Mass Effect fan problems, FTW.

#68073
Krimzie

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TheConstantOne wrote...

In the literal sense, it doesn't stop evolution and it doesn't create a utopia. It merely provides another avenue for organic life to adapt to their environment. And given the nature of life and how conflict is inevitable, the only way it could create a "utopia" would be by establishing a decisive dystopia of absolute slaves.


But if it isn't creating a utopia, can it actually be considered a solution to the Catalyst's problem?

#68074
TheConstantOne

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Krimzie wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

In the literal sense, it doesn't stop evolution and it doesn't create a utopia. It merely provides another avenue for organic life to adapt to their environment. And given the nature of life and how conflict is inevitable, the only way it could create a "utopia" would be by establishing a decisive dystopia of absolute slaves.


But if it isn't creating a utopia, can it actually be considered a solution to the Catalyst's problem?


Creating utopias harldy seems to be the Catalyst's motivation.  I point to the Reaper cycles as my case and point :happy:

#68075
Andromidius

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Oh snap. Watching a livestream of a bunch of people playing Final Fantasy 6 non-stop (for over 24 hours so far, near the end) - and seriously, the bit when the entire cast splits off into three teams which you can control is just epic.

Why didn't we get that in Mass Effect? The entire cast kicking ass, and a brief time controlling other characters (like we did with Joker in ME2) in a seperate team...

/sigh Dreams.