80611 réponses à ce sujet

[TheConstantOne]

The biggest trick to the Catalyst's logic, and this is from an IT and literal viewpoint, is what it considers to be organic life. It seems to have escaped the logical fallacy of killing organic life to save it by storing genetic material and information about cultural/technological in Reaper bodies. So, it characterizes organic life by 1) its genes and 2) its cultural markings. Preserving both of these seems to be sufficient enough to all the Catalyst to start its genocidal crusade. Based on what we learn from Leviathan, I don't think there's a difference between the IT and literal take on this particular point

[Krimzie]

TheConstantOne wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

In the literal sense, it doesn't stop evolution and it doesn't create a utopia. It merely provides another avenue for organic life to adapt to their environment. And given the nature of life and how conflict is inevitable, the only way it could create a "utopia" would be by establishing a decisive dystopia of absolute slaves.

But if it isn't creating a utopia, can it actually be considered a solution to the Catalyst's problem?

Creating utopias harldy seems to be the Catalyst's motivation.  I point to the Reaper cycles as my case and point :happy:

I totally see your point, but I'm trying to be as literal as possible right now (and oy, it's hard!). To the Catalyst, chaos vs. order is the problem he has to solve. Organics seek perfection through technology, and synthetics seek perfection through understanding. So his proposed solution is that organics will integrate with technology, and then synthetics will gain full understanding of organics. Somehow, this will stop synthetics from slaughtering their creators... I guess I just can't make heads or tails of the logic presented by the Catalyst, so I'm not saying you're wrong in thinking synthesis won't create a utopia, but my bottom line is this... if it doesn't, what's the point?

[Andromidius]

TheConstantOne wrote...

The biggest trick to the Catalyst's logic, and this is from an IT and literal viewpoint, is what it considers to be organic life. It seems to have escaped the logical fallacy of killing organic life to save it by storing genetic material and information about cultural/technological in Reaper bodies. So, it characterizes organic life by 1) its genes and 2) its cultural markings. Preserving both of these seems to be sufficient enough to all the Catalyst to start its genocidal crusade. Based on what we learn from Leviathan, I don't think there's a difference between the IT and literal take on this particular point

An even bigger hole in its logic is 'protecting organics from creating synthetics' - by giving organics the technology that will enable them to create synthetics faster...

Yeah great job there, champ.

[TheConstantOne]

Krimzie wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

In the literal sense, it doesn't stop evolution and it doesn't create a utopia. It merely provides another avenue for organic life to adapt to their environment. And given the nature of life and how conflict is inevitable, the only way it could create a "utopia" would be by establishing a decisive dystopia of absolute slaves.

But if it isn't creating a utopia, can it actually be considered a solution to the Catalyst's problem?

Creating utopias harldy seems to be the Catalyst's motivation.  I point to the Reaper cycles as my case and point :happy:

I totally see your point, but I'm trying to be as literal as possible right now (and oy, it's hard!). To the Catalyst, chaos vs. order is the problem he has to solve. Organics seek perfection through technology, and synthetics seek perfection through understanding. So his proposed solution is that organics will integrate with technology, and then synthetics will gain full understanding of organics. Somehow, this will stop synthetics from slaughtering their creators... I guess I just can't make heads or tails of the logic presented by the Catalyst, so I'm not saying you're wrong in thinking synthesis won't create a utopia, but my bottom line is this... if it doesn't, what's the point?

I'm thinking that the Catalyst's problem is solved because, through synthesis, organics can now upgrade themselves at will through clever use of technology.  Thus, they can compete with synthetics over the long term for survival.  So, once synthesis happens, the Reapers no longer need to reap.  Wars may break out in the future but organics being rendered as obsolete is no longer an issue...that's what I think it all means anyway haha 

[Big_Boss9]

Andromidius wrote...

Oh snap. Watching a livestream of a bunch of people playing Final Fantasy 6 non-stop (for over 24 hours so far, near the end) - and seriously, the bit when the entire cast splits off into three teams which you can control is just epic.

Why didn't we get that in Mass Effect? The entire cast kicking ass, and a brief time controlling other characters (like we did with Joker in ME2) in a seperate team...

/sigh Dreams.

Still my favorite FF. So good.

"Life...Dreams...Hope...Where'd they come from? And where are they headed...? These things...I'm going to destroy!!" Kefka Catalyst

[Krimzie]

TheConstantOne wrote...
I'm thinking that the Catalyst's problem is solved because, through synthesis, organics can now upgrade themselves at will through clever use of technology.  Thus, they can compete with synthetics over the long term for survival.  So, once synthesis happens, the Reapers no longer need to reap.  Wars may break out in the future but organics being rendered as obsolete is no longer an issue...that's what I think it all means anyway haha 

Ah-ha! I see. I accept this explanation as plausible (lawl, who the hell am I to even say that? )

But are we to believe, based on the EC epilogues, that a networking of conciousnesses -- a la the consensus -- will also take place? Isn't there that line about gaining all the knowledge of the reaped races (or crap, is that control?). Or even if I pulled the wrong line out of my ass, don't the synthetics need to network with techno-organics to gain that understanding they oh-so want? So... utopia...? 

I can see how the utopia assumption both is and is not a stretch, but I still lean toward it being a Matrix illusion anyway, so this is just a fun brain game for me.

[BansheeOwnage]

Krimzie wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...
I'm thinking that the Catalyst's problem is solved because, through synthesis, organics can now upgrade themselves at will through clever use of technology.  Thus, they can compete with synthetics over the long term for survival.  So, once synthesis happens, the Reapers no longer need to reap.  Wars may break out in the future but organics being rendered as obsolete is no longer an issue...that's what I think it all means anyway haha 

Ah-ha! I see. I accept this explanation as plausible (lawl, who the hell am I to even say that? )

But are we to believe, based on the EC epilogues, that a networking of conciousnesses -- a la the consensus -- will also take place? Isn't there that line about gaining all the knowledge of the reaped races (or crap, is that control?). Or even if I pulled the wrong line out of my ass, don't the synthetics need to network with techno-organics to gain that understanding they oh-so want? So... utopia...? 

I can see how the utopia assumption both is and is not a stretch, but I still lean toward it being a Matrix illusion anyway, so this is just a fun brain game for me.

Love brain games. By the way, have you seen my Super-secret Ending Choice video?

[Kabooooom]

An even bigger hole in its logic is 'protecting organics from creating synthetics' - by giving organics the technology that will enable them to create synthetics faster...

I don't think he ever wanted to prevent organics from creating synthetics, just prevent the conflict that would inevitably arise from that. But, granted, if you allow a species to advance faster to the point that they start creating synthetics...it would have made more sense to just keep every species in the stone age.

[Krimzie]

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Love brain games. By the way, have you seen my Super-secret Ending Choice video?

Negatory! Where can I find it?

[BansheeOwnage]

Kabooooom wrote...

An even bigger hole in its logic is 'protecting organics from creating synthetics' - by giving organics the technology that will enable them to create synthetics faster...

I don't think he ever wanted to prevent organics from creating synthetics, just prevent the conflict that would inevitably arise from that. But, granted, if you allow a species to advance faster to the point that they start creating synthetics...it would have made more sense to just keep every species in the stone age.

It would have made more sense to be galactic police and enforce a "No creating synthetics" policy.
It would have made more sense to destroy the synthetics rather that hijack them and upgrade them to fight the organics better.
It would have made more sense, if they can hack them, to just make them stop attacking.
It would have made more sense to do any number of other things, which strengthens IT.

[Andromidius]

Kabooooom wrote...

An even bigger hole in its logic is 'protecting organics from creating synthetics' - by giving organics the technology that will enable them to create synthetics faster...

I don't think he ever wanted to prevent organics from creating synthetics, just prevent the conflict that would inevitably arise from that. But, granted, if you allow a species to advance faster to the point that they start creating synthetics...it would have made more sense to just keep every species in the stone age.

That's precisely its logic - it moves in to slaughter people when they get advanced enough to start making synthetics, and not a moment before.  And they'll make sure you find out how to do it sooner then you would 'naturally' by leaving 'gifts' around the galaxy to be found.

The Reapers just can't wait to come and murder you.  They bait their prey, goad them into becoming 'legitimate targets'.  And if all else fails they'll use the "its coming right for us!" justification and kill you anyway.

Thinking of their actions as anything but a sick blood sport is just...  No.

[Arian Dynas]

Kabooooom wrote...

An even bigger hole in its logic is 'protecting organics from creating synthetics' - by giving organics the technology that will enable them to create synthetics faster...

I don't think he ever wanted to prevent organics from creating synthetics, just prevent the conflict that would inevitably arise from that. But, granted, if you allow a species to advance faster to the point that they start creating synthetics...it would have made more sense to just keep every species in the stone age.

His "logic" while by no means sound, IS internally consistent; organics create AIs, and will strive to advance no matter what; AIs will cause apocalyptic war that will destroy organics; QED, since organics will always go down the path to creating AIs, let them; then snatch up the organics and destroy the AIs to remove them from the equation entirely.

[BleedingUranium]

Andromidius wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

An even bigger hole in its logic is 'protecting organics from creating synthetics' - by giving organics the technology that will enable them to create synthetics faster...

I don't think he ever wanted to prevent organics from creating synthetics, just prevent the conflict that would inevitably arise from that. But, granted, if you allow a species to advance faster to the point that they start creating synthetics...it would have made more sense to just keep every species in the stone age.

That's precisely its logic - it moves in to slaughter people when they get advanced enough to start making synthetics, and not a moment before.  And they'll make sure you find out how to do it sooner then you would 'naturally' by leaving 'gifts' around the galaxy to be found.

The Reapers just can't wait to come and murder you.  They bait their prey, goad them into becoming 'legitimate targets'.  And if all else fails they'll use the "its coming right for us!" justification and kill you anyway.

Thinking of their actions as anything but a sick blood sport is just...  No.

Like Predators (the movies).

[BleedingUranium]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

An even bigger hole in its logic is 'protecting organics from creating synthetics' - by giving organics the technology that will enable them to create synthetics faster...

I don't think he ever wanted to prevent organics from creating synthetics, just prevent the conflict that would inevitably arise from that. But, granted, if you allow a species to advance faster to the point that they start creating synthetics...it would have made more sense to just keep every species in the stone age.

His "logic" while by no means sound, IS internally consistent; organics create AIs, and will strive to advance no matter what; AIs will cause apocalyptic war that will destroy organics; QED, since organics will always go down the path to creating AIs, let them; then snatch up the organics and destroy the AIs to remove them from the equation entirely.

True, he might not be lying about his motives, but he's still wrong.

[BansheeOwnage]

Krimzie wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Love brain games. By the way, have you seen my Super-secret Ending Choice video?

Negatory! Where can I find it?

Here it is! Note: It's not supposed to make a whole lot of sense - like the literal version!


Hope at least a couple things are funny.

[Krimzie]

BansheeOwnage wrote...
It would have made more sense to be galactic police and enforce a "No creating synthetics" policy.
It would have made more sense to destroy the synthetics rather that hijack them and upgrade them to fight the organics better.
It would have made more sense, if they can hack them, to just make them stop attacking.
It would have made more sense to do any number of other things, which strengthens IT.

QFT. It takes two to tango in any conflict; synthetics aren't innocent. I don't understand why organics got the short end of the stick and have to face galactic extinction every cycle and why we're supposed to accept that solution in the decision chamber. It's like when my sister and I would fight as kids; I got punished because I'm louder, but she was the devious quiet one, getting away with everything.

[Andromidius]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Like Predators (the movies).

At least Predators only hunt to hone their skills, and impose some form of challenge on themselves (though still highly biased in their favour).  And occasionally Predators even act honourably, or will fight their prey on equal terms.

Though 9/10 they'll shoot you in the back while cloaked.

[byne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Love brain games. By the way, have you seen my Super-secret Ending Choice video?

Negatory! Where can I find it?

Here it is! Note: It's not supposed to make a whole lot of sense - like the literal version!


Hope at least a couple things are funny.

If Banshee gets to plug his video I get to plug mine too!

[Arian Dynas]

Andromidius wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

An even bigger hole in its logic is 'protecting organics from creating synthetics' - by giving organics the technology that will enable them to create synthetics faster...

I don't think he ever wanted to prevent organics from creating synthetics, just prevent the conflict that would inevitably arise from that. But, granted, if you allow a species to advance faster to the point that they start creating synthetics...it would have made more sense to just keep every species in the stone age.

That's precisely its logic - it moves in to slaughter people when they get advanced enough to start making synthetics, and not a moment before.  And they'll make sure you find out how to do it sooner then you would 'naturally' by leaving 'gifts' around the galaxy to be found.

The Reapers just can't wait to come and murder you.  They bait their prey, goad them into becoming 'legitimate targets'.  And if all else fails they'll use the "its coming right for us!" justification and kill you anyway.

Thinking of their actions as anything but a sick blood sport is just...  No.

It's not a sick bloodsport; it's self preservation; they know how to beat their own technology, they know all its strengths and weaknesses, they can predict what can be done with it, since they mastered it.

If they didn't provide an easy path, which they know organics will take, being beings in a hurry, no matter how old they can get, they know their time is limited, unlike AIs,then the organics could design some unknown quantity, which they wouldn't be able to pre-empt, and could be something that leasds to their eventual danger.

That and it likely could be they do it to ensure an entire "batch" is done at one time, so there aren't any civilizations on the cusp of being targets to dominate and get 50,000 years of uninterrupted development time. This way the entire crop is ripe all at once.

[Krimzie]

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Here it is! Note: It's not supposed to make a whole lot of sense - like the literal version!


Hope at least a couple things are funny.

If Banshee gets to plug his video I get to plug mine too!

Okay, Banshee, I lol'd. In fact, I couldn't actually differentiate it too much from the original in terms of logic! Nice use of le elevator music.
And Byne! I saw that like, way back when I beat ME3 and I died and I favorited it. Had no idea it was yours.

Well played, sirs.

[Andromidius]

Arian Dynas wrote...

It's not a sick bloodsport; it's self preservation

Incorrect.  Self preservation would be maintaining order on the Galaxy and killing legitimate threats to them, not murdering entire populations and turning them into abominations.

They are interested in their own preservation, of course.  But they blatantly enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on a ridiculous scale.  Its bloodsport, regardless of it they devour the carcasses they pile up for their own enjoyment.

[401 Kill]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

An even bigger hole in its logic is 'protecting organics from creating synthetics' - by giving organics the technology that will enable them to create synthetics faster...

I don't think he ever wanted to prevent organics from creating synthetics, just prevent the conflict that would inevitably arise from that. But, granted, if you allow a species to advance faster to the point that they start creating synthetics...it would have made more sense to just keep every species in the stone age.

It would have made more sense to be galactic police and enforce a "No creating synthetics" policy.
It would have made more sense to destroy the synthetics rather that hijack them and upgrade them to fight the organics better.
It would have made more sense, if they can hack them, to just make them stop attacking.
It would have made more sense to do any number of other things, which strengthens IT.

Just like Sovreign said, organics will develope along the paths the Reapers have set for them. The Reapers use this to their advantage, as they know that striking the Citadel will be crippling to organics. They know that organics will always create  synthetics, so they use it as Leverage for them. This "logic" is just a weak excuse to "explain" why they harvest organics.
 

[Arian Dynas]

Andromidius wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

It's not a sick bloodsport; it's self preservation

Incorrect.  Self preservation would be maintaining order on the Galaxy and killing legitimate threats to them, not murdering entire populations and turning them into abominations.

They are interested in their own preservation, of course.  But they blatantly enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on a ridiculous scale.  Its bloodsport, regardless of it they devour the carcasses they pile up for their own enjoyment.

They do enjoy the torment they cause, I won't deny they're sadistic to a degree that Mengele would call extreme, but this HAS been established as the reason why they leave their technology lying around "You develop along the paths we desire; you exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

[Arian Dynas]

You see nothing; NOTHING!

(Stupid rassum frassum double post.)

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 16 décembre 2012 - 04:35 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Krimzie wrote...

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Here it is! Note: It's not supposed to make a whole lot of sense - like the literal version!


Hope at least a couple things are funny.

If Banshee gets to plug his video I get to plug mine too!

Okay, Banshee, I lol'd. In fact, I couldn't actually differentiate it too much from the original in terms of logic! Nice use of le elevator music.
And Byne! I saw that like, way back when I beat ME3 and I died and I favorited it. Had no idea it was yours.

Well played, sirs.

Thanks. Oh, and this is my equivalent video to Byne's by the way. Just remember, TIM couldn't (con)troll because the reapers already trolled him.