80611 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenEyry]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Addressing one point: It would be no more a "broken ending" than ME1 and ME2 not finishing the Reaper story.

Accursed trilogies! One game for the price of three! It's a rip off it is!

[BleedingUranium]

BatmanTurian wrote...

You can't argue with someone who thinks there is nothing to this series but bad writing. There is a fundamental schism there of massive proportions that makes it impossible for Arcian to give Bioware the slightest bit of credit. And so this conversation and debate with him is as pointless as trying to debate with Seboist, the exception only being that Arcian is slightly nicer.

It is like being an atheist and arguing with a creationist or being a liberal and arguing with a conservative or being a socialist and arguing with a capitalist. The divide is just too great.

I certainly understand that, but as long as someone's nice, and hasn't started arguing in circles, I'll talk with them.

[BatmanTurian]

BleedingUranium wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You can't argue with someone who thinks there is nothing to this series but bad writing. There is a fundamental schism there of massive proportions that makes it impossible for Arcian to give Bioware the slightest bit of credit. And so this conversation and debate with him is as pointless as trying to debate with Seboist, the exception only being that Arcian is slightly nicer.

It is like being an atheist and arguing with a creationist or being a liberal and arguing with a conservative or being a socialist and arguing with a capitalist. The divide is just too great.

I certainly understand that, but as long as someone's nice, and hasn't started arguing in circles, I'll talk with them.

Alright. I'm just calling it like I see it. But trying is noble I guess.

[zigamortis]

BleedingUranium wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

As much as i would like to think that this whole debacle was on accident it very well could have been, in the final cut app one of them said that they originaly had planed to do an indoctrination ending but couldn't get it to work in the way they wanted. While that could mean they completly scrapped the idea, which I don't think they did, it also could mean they just redid the indoctrination ending and left the clues throughout the game in order to keep it as a possibility.

I'm curious, why would you rather IT not be true?

I did not say that, sorry if it seemed as i did. what i ment by debacle was that they did not include it in the base game hence the whole retake mass effect movement and etc. I personaly love IT and think that it is the real ending or at least the best chance of an ending, I simply wish that it was in the original game and not dlc.

[BleedingUranium]

zigamortis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

As much as i would like to think that this whole debacle was on accident it very well could have been, in the final cut app one of them said that they originaly had planed to do an indoctrination ending but couldn't get it to work in the way they wanted. While that could mean they completly scrapped the idea, which I don't think they did, it also could mean they just redid the indoctrination ending and left the clues throughout the game in order to keep it as a possibility.

I'm curious, why would you rather IT not be true?

I did not say that, sorry if it seemed as i did. what i ment by debacle was that they did not include it in the base game hence the whole retake mass effect movement and etc. I personaly love IT and think that it is the real ending or at least the best chance of an ending, I simply wish that it was in the original game and not dlc.

Oh, I guess by what I bolded above you meant the controversy and rage about the ending, not IT. My mistake.

[spotlessvoid]

I think they overestimated their fan base

[BatmanTurian]

zigamortis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

As much as i would like to think that this whole debacle was on accident it very well could have been, in the final cut app one of them said that they originaly had planed to do an indoctrination ending but couldn't get it to work in the way they wanted. While that could mean they completly scrapped the idea, which I don't think they did, it also could mean they just redid the indoctrination ending and left the clues throughout the game in order to keep it as a possibility.

I'm curious, why would you rather IT not be true?

I did not say that, sorry if it seemed as i did. what i ment by debacle was that they did not include it in the base game hence the whole retake mass effect movement and etc. I personaly love IT and think that it is the real ending or at least the best chance of an ending, I simply wish that it was in the original game and not dlc.

But then you wouldn't have the interesting social experiment of real people arguing for months for the goals of the Reapers, saying the Reapers are innocent, that Destroyers are monsters, that Synthesis and Control make sense and there would be no downsides, etc.  

[BleedingUranium]

Arcian wrote...

IIRC, they said the indoctrination element would include the player losing control over Shepard's motions. I.e it would screw with the controller. Apparently it was pretty difficult from a technical standpoint, which is why they scrapped it. But as I recall, it would be a case of "conscious" indoctrination as opposed to the dreamstate indoctrination laid out in the IT.

Yep. But if you were going to write in the player character suffering an indoctrination attempt would you rather force it on the player and remove their control of themselves, or immerse them in it alongside the character, making them feel what it would actually be like. Not revealing it until later is crucial to that, for the reasons Batman just posted above me.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 16 décembre 2012 - 06:27 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

Why force a player to lose control, when its far more devious and true to indoctrination for players to willingly submit themselves to the reapers, believing they are doing the right thing.

[demersel]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think they overestimated their fan base

Sadly, i think that is true. But on the other hand i think they were ready for some kind of outcry - given their agressive marketing to new players.  They just didn't expect that THAT many people (and that many of their core fans) would not get it.  

[zigamortis]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Arcian wrote...

IIRC, they said the indoctrination element would include the player losing control over Shepard's motions. I.e it would screw with the controller. Apparently it was pretty difficult from a technical standpoint, which is why they scrapped it. But as I recall, it would be a case of "conscious" indoctrination as opposed to the dreamstate indoctrination laid out in the IT.

Yep. But if you were going to write in the player character suffering an indoctrination attempt would you rather force it on the player and remove their control of themselves, or immerse them in it alongside the character, making them feel what it would actually be like. Not revealing it until later is crucial to that, for the reasons Batman just posted above me.

Well i agree that it give more people the chance to think it out i simply don't like the months of confusion and uncertainty while they seem to fuel the fire with cryptic statements and frustrating backtalk. I would die of a nerdgasm if it is true and the ending is indoctrination, i just don't like the long wait to get the ending to my favorite game series. 

[demersel]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Why force a player to lose control, when its far more devious and true to indoctrination for players to willingly submit themselves to the reapers, believing they are doing the right thing.

Yes, the direct gameplay mechanic along with a boss battle would be too video-gamy. 

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Why force a player to lose control, when its far more devious and true to indoctrination for players to willingly submit themselves to the reapers, believing they are doing the right thing.

Yes, the direct gameplay mechanic along with a boss battle would be too video-gamy. 

I guess brainwashing people is art now.

[demersel]

BatmanTurian wrote...

demersel wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Why force a player to lose control, when its far more devious and true to indoctrination for players to willingly submit themselves to the reapers, believing they are doing the right thing.

Yes, the direct gameplay mechanic along with a boss battle would be too video-gamy. 

I guess brainwashing people is art now.

That is certainly a craft at the very minimum. ))))

[dreamgazer]

BatmanTurian wrote...

You can't argue with someone who thinks there is nothing to this series but bad writing. There is a fundamental schism there of massive proportions that makes it impossible for Arcian to give Bioware the slightest bit of credit. And so this conversation and debate with him is as pointless as trying to debate with Seboist, the exception only being that Arcian is slightly nicer.

It is like being an atheist and arguing with a creationist or being a liberal and arguing with a conservative or being a socialist and arguing with a capitalist. The divide is just too great.

Are you sure that you're properly lumping those opinions together? Shouldn't be doing it in the first place, but I don't believe those two posters are of the same mind on the series as a whole.

Also, for as much as people try to attach religious connotations with the remaining "believers" of IT, I really don't think bringing it into the conversation is a wise idea---or politics, for that matter.

[BleedingUranium]

zigamortis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Arcian wrote...

IIRC, they said the indoctrination element would include the player losing control over Shepard's motions. I.e it would screw with the controller. Apparently it was pretty difficult from a technical standpoint, which is why they scrapped it. But as I recall, it would be a case of "conscious" indoctrination as opposed to the dreamstate indoctrination laid out in the IT.

Yep. But if you were going to write in the player character suffering an indoctrination attempt would you rather force it on the player and remove their control of themselves, or immerse them in it alongside the character, making them feel what it would actually be like. Not revealing it until later is crucial to that, for the reasons Batman just posted above me.

Well i agree that it give more people the chance to think it out i simply don't like the months of confusion and uncertainty while they seem to fuel the fire with cryptic statements and frustrating backtalk. I would die of a nerdgasm if it is true and the ending is indoctrination, i just don't like the long wait to get the ending to my favorite game series. 

I love this thread and the people here, but yes, none of us like the waiting. I, along with the majority of people here, are content to wait until the all the DLC is out before, well, not giving up, but not being so active, if at all.

[BleedingUranium]

dreamgazer wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You can't argue with someone who thinks there is nothing to this series but bad writing. There is a fundamental schism there of massive proportions that makes it impossible for Arcian to give Bioware the slightest bit of credit. And so this conversation and debate with him is as pointless as trying to debate with Seboist, the exception only being that Arcian is slightly nicer.

It is like being an atheist and arguing with a creationist or being a liberal and arguing with a conservative or being a socialist and arguing with a capitalist. The divide is just too great.

Are you sure that you're properly lumping those opinions together? Shouldn't be doing it in the first place, but I don't believe those two posters are of the same mind on the series as a whole.

Also, for as much as people try to attach religious connotations with the remaining "believers" of IT, I really don't think bringing it into the conversation is a wise idea---or politics, for that matter.

He wasn't really comparing sides there, the point was someone who truely believes Bioware's terrible at writing (etc) can't have a rational arguement with someone who thinks the opposite. And that's the baseline, that comes before IT, or anything else.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 16 décembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[BatmanTurian]

dreamgazer wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You can't argue with someone who thinks there is nothing to this series but bad writing. There is a fundamental schism there of massive proportions that makes it impossible for Arcian to give Bioware the slightest bit of credit. And so this conversation and debate with him is as pointless as trying to debate with Seboist, the exception only being that Arcian is slightly nicer.

It is like being an atheist and arguing with a creationist or being a liberal and arguing with a conservative or being a socialist and arguing with a capitalist. The divide is just too great.

Are you sure that you're properly lumping those opinions together? Shouldn't be doing it in the first place, but I don't believe those two posters are of the same mind on the series as a whole.

Also, for as much as people try to attach religious connotations with the remaining "believers" of IT, I really don't think bringing it into the conversation is a wise idea---or politics, for that matter.

It's a comparative metaphor, and yes, it fits, and yes those two are almost exactly of the same mind. I know what I'm saying. It's not PC, but it's the truth and the truth isn't pretty.

[BatmanTurian]

BleedingUranium wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You can't argue with someone who thinks there is nothing to this series but bad writing. There is a fundamental schism there of massive proportions that makes it impossible for Arcian to give Bioware the slightest bit of credit. And so this conversation and debate with him is as pointless as trying to debate with Seboist, the exception only being that Arcian is slightly nicer.

It is like being an atheist and arguing with a creationist or being a liberal and arguing with a conservative or being a socialist and arguing with a capitalist. The divide is just too great.

Are you sure that you're properly lumping those opinions together? Shouldn't be doing it in the first place, but I don't believe those two posters are of the same mind on the series as a whole.

Also, for as much as people try to attach religious connotations with the remaining "believers" of IT, I really don't think bringing it into the conversation is a wise idea---or politics, for that matter.

He wasn't really comparing sides there, the point was someone who truely believes Bioware's terrible at writing (etc) can't have a rational arguement with someone who thinks the opposite. And that's the baseline, that comes before IT, or anything else.

Yes, not comparing sides to those actual ideologies, just using a comparative metaphor.

[zigamortis]

BleedingUranium wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Arcian wrote...

IIRC, they said the indoctrination element would include the player losing control over Shepard's motions. I.e it would screw with the controller. Apparently it was pretty difficult from a technical standpoint, which is why they scrapped it. But as I recall, it would be a case of "conscious" indoctrination as opposed to the dreamstate indoctrination laid out in the IT.

Yep. But if you were going to write in the player character suffering an indoctrination attempt would you rather force it on the player and remove their control of themselves, or immerse them in it alongside the character, making them feel what it would actually be like. Not revealing it until later is crucial to that, for the reasons Batman just posted above me.

Well i agree that it give more people the chance to think it out i simply don't like the months of confusion and uncertainty while they seem to fuel the fire with cryptic statements and frustrating backtalk. I would die of a nerdgasm if it is true and the ending is indoctrination, i just don't like the long wait to get the ending to my favorite game series. 

I love this thread and the people here, but yes, none of us like the waiting. I, along with the majority of people here, are content to wait until the all the DLC is out before, well, not giving up, but not being so active, if at all.

Since the ending bioware went from my favorite game developer to the blacklist...... Fixing the ending will take them off the list.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Arcian wrote...

IIRC, they said the indoctrination element would include the player losing control over Shepard's motions. I.e it would screw with the controller. Apparently it was pretty difficult from a technical standpoint, which is why they scrapped it. But as I recall, it would be a case of "conscious" indoctrination as opposed to the dreamstate indoctrination laid out in the IT.

Yep. But if you were going to write in the player character suffering an indoctrination attempt would you rather force it on the player and remove their control of themselves, or immerse them in it alongside the character, making them feel what it would actually be like. Not revealing it until later is crucial to that, for the reasons Batman just posted above me.

Especilaly since the key part of Indoctrination is that the subject (in most cases) dont even realize they have fallen under control. To them anything they do feels like the natural choice given the situation, they dont realize they are beeing controlled or manipulated.

[CoolioThane]

sup everyone?

[BatmanTurian]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Arcian wrote...

IIRC, they said the indoctrination element would include the player losing control over Shepard's motions. I.e it would screw with the controller. Apparently it was pretty difficult from a technical standpoint, which is why they scrapped it. But as I recall, it would be a case of "conscious" indoctrination as opposed to the dreamstate indoctrination laid out in the IT.

Yep. But if you were going to write in the player character suffering an indoctrination attempt would you rather force it on the player and remove their control of themselves, or immerse them in it alongside the character, making them feel what it would actually be like. Not revealing it until later is crucial to that, for the reasons Batman just posted above me.

Especilaly since the key part of Indoctrination is that the subject (in most cases) dont even realize they have fallen under control. To them anything they do feels like the natural choice given the situation, they dont realize they are beeing controlled or manipulated.

Which.... gee golly gosh, sounds exactly like the endings we received.