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[demersel]

CoolioThane wrote...

sup everyone?

We are thinking that Shepard might be getting indoctrinated in ME3. You? 

[dreamgazer]

BatmanTurian wrote...

It's a comparative metaphor, and yes, it fits, and yes those two are almost exactly of the same mind. I know what I'm saying. It's not PC, but it's the truth and the truth isn't pretty.

I understand the disparity and that you're purely illustrating the dichotomy between sides, but it can just as easily be flipped the other way around in the eyes of a non-IT person. You know how I feel about the difference between religious belief and literary interpretation, but I think the best way to avoid it is to leave it out of the conversation altogether and not draw the parallels.

And my apologies if my perceptions of posters was off, but I'm a firm believer in not closing off outer opinions so hastily---especially when there are some dubious elements in ME3's writing and execution.

[BleedingUranium]

Arcian wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You can't argue with someone who thinks there is nothing to this series but bad writing.

There's a lot of good writing in Mass Effect. Sadly, the good writing has become more sparse with each game, and the bad writing has conversely increased in volume. And this isn't just a case of personal preference, I'm looking at internal logic and continuity, two things Super MAC and Casey does not seem to value very highly.

Except that's still your opinion.

[BatmanTurian]

Arcian wrote...
There's a lot of good writing in Mass Effect. Sadly, the good writing has become more sparse with each game, and the bad writing has conversely increased in volume. And this isn't just a case of personal preference, I'm looking at internal logic and continuity, two things Super MAC and Casey does not seem to value very highly.

Your hate for them clouds your judgement.

Arcian wrote...
From a writing standpoint, the Genophage Arc was excellent and I have almost nothing else than praise for Patrick Weekes and John Dombrow's writing (particularly Javik). The combat was great as well. I liked Leviathan a lot, because it didn't just include mindless sections of non-stop, on-the-rails shooting. And besides small things like actually referencing my Prothy the Prothean nickname for Javik in the game, BioWare deserves credit for actually devoting resources and taking their time to develop the EC for free, even though it only solved the more superficial problems.

Very well. These seem to be your exceptions to the rule of bad writing. You haven't looked at the great writing they've done in the past, like Jade Empire or Neverwinter Nights 2 etc.

Arcian wrote...
There is a crucial difference between me and Seboist. I actually like Mass Effect. All he's interested in is sucking TIM's **** and becoming the grimdark god emperor of Douchebagistan.

Hence, why I said you are nicer. But you both spout bad writing at every oppurtunity, so if you believe the majority of the series is bad writing, you're in the same boat.

Arcian wrote...
Well, I respectfully disagree.

Exactly, you disagree that Mass Effect 3 has great writing, and so that divide is too great for you to come around to our way of thinking unless you are willing to play around with the idea that you may be wrong. You won't, beause you think the writing has gone down in quality. Therefore, you will never agree with IT, because it rests on trusting the writers.

[BatmanTurian]

dreamgazer wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

It's a comparative metaphor, and yes, it fits, and yes those two are almost exactly of the same mind. I know what I'm saying. It's not PC, but it's the truth and the truth isn't pretty.

I understand the disparity and that you're purely illustrating the dichotomy between sides, but it can just as easily be flipped the other way around in the eyes of a non-IT person. You know how I feel about the difference between religious belief and literary interpretation, but I think the best way to avoid it is to leave it out of the conversation altogether and not draw the parallels.

And my apologies if my perceptions of posters was off, but I'm a firm believer in not closing off outer opinions so hastily---especially when there are some dubious elements in ME3's writing and execution.

That is the point. It can be flipped around. That's the schism.
I'm not even comparing this to religion or ideology, only the divide that makes it difficult for one side to see the other side's point or agree with it.  I'm not closing off Arcian's opinion, only stating the obvious: there is a block on his thinking and our thinking that makes it difficult to agree with one another on a fundamental level.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 16 décembre 2012 - 06:57 .

[CoolioThane]

Yeah I think indoctrination is rife.

Oh by the way Arcian, I had a read of your Praetor sig and really liked the idea! Are you working on finishing it off as I'm really interested

[BleedingUranium]

"But in the end, our beliefs are simply too disparate. I believe Mass Effect 3's ending is the worst mistake ever made. And nothing you can say will ever convince me otherwise."

[RavenEyry]

Neither side in the bad writing argument will ever win so both of you drop it before feelings are hurt.

[BatmanTurian]

Arcian wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arcian wrote...
From a writing standpoint, the Genophage Arc was excellent and I have almost nothing else than praise for Patrick Weekes and John Dombrow's writing (particularly Javik). The combat was great as well. I liked Leviathan a lot, because it didn't just include mindless sections of non-stop, on-the-rails shooting. And besides small things like actually referencing my Prothy the Prothean nickname for Javik in the game, BioWare deserves credit for actually devoting resources and taking their time to develop the EC for free, even though it only solved the more superficial problems.

Very well. These seem to be your exceptions to the rule of bad writing. You haven't looked at the great writing they've done in the past, like Jade Empire or Neverwinter Nights 2 etc.

I'm sorry but in which way does their earlier works relate to ME3? I know they have made some really great games with some really great writing, but that's in the past and isn't really relevant in this context.

Both of those have an ending that is exactly the same as what IT proposes is happening in ME3's ending. Bioware has a history of writing twist endings that make the villain trick the player into choosing his own doom. Once there is history, there is precedence. If there is precedence, that makes the scenario proposed more likely.

[BleedingUranium]

CoolioThane wrote...

Oh by the way Arcian, I had a read of your Praetor sig and really liked the idea! Are you working on finishing it off as I'm really interested

I just read it as well, an it's impressive. Other than killing off Liara.

[BleedingUranium]

Arcian wrote...

I'm less concerned with the validity of the IT in itself, and more concerned with the fact that it would have to be added through paid DLC. Jade Empire and NWN2 both came with their twist endings in the full package. ME3 didn't. Why? Just to f**k with the fans?

I had to pay for ME2 and 3 to get the full story, how is this (or any DLC) different?

[BatmanTurian]

Arcian wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arcian wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arcian wrote...
From a writing standpoint, the Genophage Arc was excellent and I have almost nothing else than praise for Patrick Weekes and John Dombrow's writing (particularly Javik). The combat was great as well. I liked Leviathan a lot, because it didn't just include mindless sections of non-stop, on-the-rails shooting. And besides small things like actually referencing my Prothy the Prothean nickname for Javik in the game, BioWare deserves credit for actually devoting resources and taking their time to develop the EC for free, even though it only solved the more superficial problems.

Very well. These seem to be your exceptions to the rule of bad writing. You haven't looked at the great writing they've done in the past, like Jade Empire or Neverwinter Nights 2 etc.

I'm sorry but in which way does their earlier works relate to ME3? I know they have made some really great games with some really great writing, but that's in the past and isn't really relevant in this context.

Both of those have an ending that is exactly the same as what IT proposes is happening in ME3's ending. Bioware has a history of writing twist endings that make the villain trick the player into choosing his own doom. Once there is history, there is precedence. If there is precedence, that makes the scenario proposed more likely.

I'm less concerned with the validity of the IT in itself, and more concerned with the fact that it would have to be added through paid DLC. Jade Empire and NWN2 both came with their twist endings in the full package. ME3 didn't. Why? Just to f**k with the fans?

Applying Occam's Razor, it is much more likely that the bad endings were simply that - bad.  Nothing more than Super MAC and Casey's poor attempt to mooch off of Matrix, Deus Ex and other works preceding theirs.

You said earlier that my hate clouds my judgement. I would like to suggest that your love clouds yours.

And this is the schism and impasse I was speaking of earlier.

[The Heretic of Time]

BatmanTurian wrote...

You can't argue with someone who thinks there is nothing to this series but bad writing. 

And you can't argue with someone who's apologetic to bad writing and simply justifies any inconsistent or non-sensical part of Mass Effect as "omg indoctrination".

"Mass Effect is an inconistent mess? IMPOSSIBRU! It's probably just more clues for IT." 

It's either that, or you guys simply resort to: "nah that's just your opinion man".

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:24 .

[CoolioThane]

One way or another Bioware have to confirm/deny IT so we're just waiting for that, really.

[CoolioThane]

"Bad writing" is opinion. Pure and simple.

[BleedingUranium]

Don't feed it. Please.

Not directed at anyone in particular.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:24 .

[dreamgazer]

BleedingUranium wrote...

"But in the end, our beliefs are simply too disparate. I believe Mass Effect 3's ending is the worst mistake ever made. And nothing you can say will ever convince me otherwise."

Being a mistake doesn't mean that the idea doesn't have merits that the poster might like to discuss. Of course, I'm speaking generally here, and I might be pointlessly doing so.

I think there's something to the interpretation myself, but I also strongly doubt that any kind of prolonged performance-art debate was a "good idea" for the trilogy's conclusion. What'll be left amongst the rubble of philosophical and qualitative battle?

[Andromidius]

Oh, another person saying bad writing?

Fair enough. Why are you here then?

Because if I spent time on forums about things I considered bad (the Star Trek reboot...) I'd have no time at all to do the things I actually enjoy.

[Domanese]

Hello people, especially BT and Arcian, I see we are still talking maybe 9 months later into the games life.

[The Heretic of Time]

CoolioThane wrote...

"Bad writing" is opinion. Pure and simple.

"Inconsistent mess" isn't an opinion. And when something is an inconsistent mess, than the majority will hold the opinion that it's badly written, as is exactly the case with the Mass Effect trilogy, especially ME3.

[RavenEyry]

Arcian wrote...

Applying Occam's Razor, it is much more likely that the bad endings were simply that - bad.  Nothing more than Super MAC and Casey's poor attempt to mooch off of Matrix, Deus Ex and other works preceding theirs.

Occam's razor does not count for fiction and is a guideline not a rule anyway.

[BleedingUranium]

dreamgazer wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

"But in the end, our beliefs are simply too disparate. I believe Mass Effect 3's ending is the worst mistake ever made. And nothing you can say will ever convince me otherwise."

Being a mistake doesn't mean that the idea doesn't have merits that the poster might like to discuss. Of course, I'm speaking generally here, and I might be pointlessly doing so.

I think there's something to the interpretation myself, but I also strongly doubt that any kind of prolonged performance-art debate was a "good idea" for the trilogy's conclusion. What'll be left amongst the rubble of philosophical and qualitative battle?

Given that a lot of non-ITers are that because they believe bad writing, if Bioware does do an awesome reveal, then they'll happily enjoy it, I expect. It's the anti-ITers, controllers, and synthesizers that'll be unhappy, but they're a minority. A loud minority, but still a minority.

[The Heretic of Time]

CoolioThane wrote...

One way or another Bioware have to confirm/deny IT so we're just waiting for that, really.

You can probably wait until the end of times, it's not gonna happen. BioWare will probably never confirm nor deny IT. It's best for you and your mental health to just give up now and move on.