80611 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

Sejborg wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

I have a question. Not trying to troll you guys or anything I am just wondering about IT.

Why is Shepard offered an option to kill all the reapers if he is indoctrinated by the reapers?

In order to make the other options of ending the Reapers appear to be genuine.  After all, if Shepard were offered only Control and Synthesis, but Destroy was completely absent, wouldn't you be a little more suspicious?

I'm not sure I understand. Why should the reapers care if Shepard becomes suspicious? I mean. Shepard is under their control, so why should they care what he thinks about the options? 

a test.  hey i know lets take over this dude and then parade him as a traitor to earth, only for him to turn on us and chase us back into dark space.

[jojon2se]

BleedingUranium wrote...
Trolls win by making people mad. He's so damn hilarious I don't think I'll ever get mad.

They also score  a secondary victory, if they can kill signal-to-noise ratio.

In the case of this thread, they manage this with the help of people who should know better (and probably do, but can't resist biting anyway), than to respond to them.
I am pretty much constantly 10-50 posts behind and even though I shouldn't, I take the time to skim each page for gems, which does take tons of time (slow reader), even if I summarily skip posts which has certain names in them).

(Incidently; If I was seriously going to filter out good stuff from the whole compound thread, I might just grep "restrider", remove duplicates and live with the loss of any other tasty bits...)


Well, at least our trolls are regular troll trolls and not trolls with an agenda.

I used to lurk a (quite stubbornly) unmoderated forum, which in days past drew good intelligent people, who had very insightful, open and friendly discussions around its subject -- people who could handle free speech.
These people had already begun to drop off, due to the subject in question losing immediate relevance and fading into history, when one day some ridicolously militant individual from another forum, which discussed the same subject, but was strictly partisan and heavily moderated, to say the least; saw fit to call a crusade on heretics who wouldn't sweep uncomfortable truths under the carpet.

Still, to this day, years later, with the subject all but forgotten, but by a few stalwarts; this pathetic creature takes time every day, to spam the poor forum with heaps and heaps of offensive slurs and nonsensical stuffing, polluting the place to death. 49 posts in 50 are his and none contains anything of value.

[RavenEyry]

Sejborg wrote...

I'm not sure I understand. Why should the reapers care if Shepard becomes suspicious? I mean. Shepard is under their control, so why should they care what he thinks about the options? 

Shepard is not under their control. It's indoctrination theory, not indoctrinated theory.

[RavenEyry]

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

I have a question. Not trying to troll you guys or anything I am just wondering about IT.

Why is Shepard offered an option to kill all the reapers if he is indoctrinated by the reapers?

Shepard is not indoctrinated. The choice is a delusion of a mind under attack.

No, the choice is real but has a different meaning. Destroy is actually staying true to his beliefs and willing to pursue the goal of destroying the enemy.

I meant it's not real as in actually happening, not that it didn't mean anything.

[Rankincountry]

RavenEyry wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

I'm not sure I understand. Why should the reapers care if Shepard becomes suspicious? I mean. Shepard is under their control, so why should they care what he thinks about the options? 

Shepard is not under their control. It's indoctrination theory, not indoctrinated theory.

Exactly - one way of looking at Destroy is that Shepard's subconscious is trying to give him a way to resist the process of indoctrination.

[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

I have a question. Not trying to troll you guys or anything I am just wondering about IT.

Why is Shepard offered an option to kill all the reapers if he is indoctrinated by the reapers?

Shepard is not indoctrinated. The choice is a delusion of a mind under attack.

No, the choice is real but has a different meaning. Destroy is actually staying true to his beliefs and willing to pursue the goal of destroying the enemy.

I meant it's not real as in actually happening, not that it didn't mean anything.

So you meant that the object of choice is a lie.

[RavenEyry]

paxxton wrote...
So you meant that the object of choice is a lie.

I meant there isn't a pipe to shoot. A mental pipe maybe but not one in front of you.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Sejborg wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

I have a question. Not trying to troll you guys or anything I am just wondering about IT.

Why is Shepard offered an option to kill all the reapers if he is indoctrinated by the reapers?

In order to make the other options of ending the Reapers appear to be genuine.  After all, if Shepard were offered only Control and Synthesis, but Destroy was completely absent, wouldn't you be a little more suspicious?

I'm not sure I understand. Why should the reapers care if Shepard becomes suspicious? I mean. Shepard is under their control, so why should they care what he thinks about the options? 

As some have already said we are not syaing Shepard is Indoctrinated, only that he is in the process. The Decision Chamber and the choices there represent the Reapers temptation against Shepards own goals and motivations. 

That is also why Destroy is pictured in a much more negative light than the other choices, the Reapers want to lure him away from it.

You have to remember taht indoctrination works by aligning the victims goals with the reapers without the person ever realizing it. People like TIM and Saren could not see they were indoctrinated, they thought what they were doing was their own free will. In the same way Shepard has to willingly align his goals with those of the Reapers in order to fall, even if he is beeing tricked into it.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 16 décembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...
So you meant that the object of choice is a lie.

I meant there isn't a pipe to shoot. A mental pipe maybe but not one in front of you.

But how can you distinguish reality from a dream if the dream is like reality?

Modifié par paxxton, 16 décembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[RavenEyry]

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...
So you meant that the object of choice is a lie.

I meant there isn't a pipe to shoot. A mental pipe maybe but not one in front of you.

But how can you distinguish reality from a dream if the dream is like reality?

Try reading something. Dreams don't do text well.

[BatmanTurian]

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...
So you meant that the object of choice is a lie.

I meant there isn't a pipe to shoot. A mental pipe maybe but not one in front of you.

But how can you distinguish reality from a dream if the dream is like reality?

What is real?

[Bill Casey]

paxxton wrote...

No, the choice is real but has a different meaning. Destroy is actually staying true to his beliefs and willing to pursue the goal of destroying the enemy.

[Rankincountry]

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...
So you meant that the object of choice is a lie.

I meant there isn't a pipe to shoot. A mental pipe maybe but not one in front of you.

But how can you distinguish reality from a dream if the dream is like reality?

That reminds me of an HP Lovecraft story about a guy who could visit other worlds in his dreams and ended up unable to distinguish which world was which, since both seemed equally real to him. Maybe that's a way of looking at indoctrination? When you can no longer distinguish between Reaper thoughts and ideals and your own?

[401 Kill]

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...
So you meant that the object of choice is a lie.

I meant there isn't a pipe to shoot. A mental pipe maybe but not one in front of you.

But how can you distinguish reality from a dream if the dream is like reality?

Just look at a clock. If there are drastic changes in what it displays over a short period of time, something is wrong.

[dorktainian]

the science of the crudible. what you SHOULD have discovered about it when confronting star brat.

The cathode ray tube (CRT) is a vacuum tube containing an electron gun (a source of electrons or electron emitter) and a fluorescent screen used to view images. It has a means to accelerate and deflect the electron beam onto the fluorescent screen to create the images. The image may represent electrical waveforms (oscilloscope), pictures (television, computer monitor), radar targets and others. CRTs have also been used as memory devices, in which case the visible light emitted from the fluoresecent material (if any) is not intended to have significant meaning to a visual observer (though the visible pattern on the tube face may cryptically represent the stored data)

[paxxton]

@BatmanTurian: Exactly.

@Bill Casey: That's a more concise explanation.

@RavenEyry: What do you mean?

Modifié par paxxton, 16 décembre 2012 - 09:01 .

[RavenEyry]

paxxton wrote...

@RavenEyry: What do you mean?

Text and, as 401 says, clocks do not remain consistent in dreams. Ask any lucid dreamer, it's a common dream sign.

[paxxton]

Rankincountry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...
So you meant that the object of choice is a lie.

I meant there isn't a pipe to shoot. A mental pipe maybe but not one in front of you.

But how can you distinguish reality from a dream if the dream is like reality?

That reminds me of an HP Lovecraft story about a guy who could visit other worlds in his dreams and ended up unable to distinguish which world was which, since both seemed equally real to him. Maybe that's a way of looking at indoctrination? When you can no longer distinguish between Reaper thoughts and ideals and your own?

And I chose Control.

EDIT: But, wait, Synthesis is the Reapers' goal. Not Control.

Modifié par paxxton, 16 décembre 2012 - 09:13 .

[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@RavenEyry: What do you mean?

Text and, as 401 says, clocks do not remain consistent in dreams. Ask any lucid dreamer, it's a common dream sign.

Did you know that matter is mostly empty? Reality is an illusion.

Modifié par paxxton, 16 décembre 2012 - 09:06 .

[Sejborg]

Rankincountry wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

I'm not sure I understand. Why should the reapers care if Shepard becomes suspicious? I mean. Shepard is under their control, so why should they care what he thinks about the options? 

Shepard is not under their control. It's indoctrination theory, not indoctrinated theory.

Exactly - one way of looking at Destroy is that Shepard's subconscious is trying to give him a way to resist the process of indoctrination.

Interesting. So just to recap and make sure I got this.

When picking destroy Shepard releases his mind from the Reapers. All the things we are shown with the consequences of that choice - relays blowing up, the picture slideshow and all that stuff - all that is still Shepard's mind being influenced by the Reapers, and actually don't happen. And then with the breath scene, Shepard is finally released/breaks free of the Reapers. 

And that means that Shepard's mission is still not completed because the Reapers have still not been stopped.

[dorktainian]

Rankincountry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...
So you meant that the object of choice is a lie.

I meant there isn't a pipe to shoot. A mental pipe maybe but not one in front of you.

But how can you distinguish reality from a dream if the dream is like reality?

That reminds me of an HP Lovecraft story about a guy who could visit other worlds in his dreams and ended up unable to distinguish which world was which, since both seemed equally real to him. Maybe that's a way of looking at indoctrination? When you can no longer distinguish between Reaper thoughts and ideals and your own?

best post i've seen in a while.  what in the end defines reality?  Is everything we see a dream?  Is everything we dream real?    in the case of shepard is it even possible to tell them apart?  We see shepard wake up after the final kid chase dream.....but do we?

[dorktainian]

Sejborg wrote...

Rankincountry wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

I'm not sure I understand. Why should the reapers care if Shepard becomes suspicious? I mean. Shepard is under their control, so why should they care what he thinks about the options? 

Shepard is not under their control. It's indoctrination theory, not indoctrinated theory.

Exactly - one way of looking at Destroy is that Shepard's subconscious is trying to give him a way to resist the process of indoctrination.

Interesting. So just to recap and make sure I got this.

When picking destroy Shepard releases his mind from the Reapers. All the things we are shown with the consequences of that choice - relays blowing up, the picture slideshow and all that stuff - all that is still Shepard's mind being influenced by the Reapers, and actually don't happen. And then with the breath scene, Shepard is finally released/breaks free of the Reapers. 

And that means that Shepard's mission is still not completed because the Reapers have still not been stopped.

the best analogy i can think of is the Matrix (red pill / blue pill)

[BatmanTurian]

Sejborg wrote...

Rankincountry wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

I'm not sure I understand. Why should the reapers care if Shepard becomes suspicious? I mean. Shepard is under their control, so why should they care what he thinks about the options? 

Shepard is not under their control. It's indoctrination theory, not indoctrinated theory.

Exactly - one way of looking at Destroy is that Shepard's subconscious is trying to give him a way to resist the process of indoctrination.

Interesting. So just to recap and make sure I got this.

When picking destroy Shepard releases his mind from the Reapers. All the things we are shown with the consequences of that choice - relays blowing up, the picture slideshow and all that stuff - all that is still Shepard's mind being influenced by the Reapers, and actually don't happen. And then with the breath scene, Shepard is finally released/breaks free of the Reapers. 

And that means that Shepard's mission is still not completed because the Reapers have still not been stopped.

Precisely. This is either a cliffhanger ending or a precursor to post-ending DLC that will bridge  into ME4

[401 Kill]

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@RavenEyry: What do you mean?

Text and, as 401 says, clocks do not remain consistent in dreams. Ask any lucid dreamer, it's a common dream sign.

Did you know that matter is mostly empty? Reality is an illusion.

So you are saying I can run right through my wall? Brb, I've got to try this!!

The year was 2743...

Modifié par 401 Kill, 16 décembre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Hey, guys, I'm back. Did I miss anything over the past two days?