80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Xd2delo]

CoolioThane wrote...

Fair play delo!

I honestly think the biggest physical evidence of IT is Shepard breathing on Earth. IT is the only explanation!

No argument from me, and, incidentally, yet another point that was NOT addressed by the EC.  Which may or may not be of consequence, but I think was interesting.  I mean, it was one of the major points raised in the aftermath of the original ending, and unless my memory fails me (a possibility at all times), there wasn't so much as a throwaway line acknowledging it ("Gee Shepard, good thing all N7 armor comes issued with standard reentry pack, which can survive even significant damage to that armor!"  or even Hackett saying something like "The Citadel is breaking apart, but life support still seems to be functioning on the __ /wherever the hell Shepard is".  I mean, obviously, it'd have to be better than that, but something, jeez.)

[GethPrimeMKII]

All the literal endings can be invalidated if one examines them thoroughly enough. Despite that you can still have a fairly thoughtful discussion with people about the literal endings by examining why players choose what they do.

Its the bad writting zealots that really can't be talked to. I dunno what is it about the IT thread that makes it such a popular place to bash Bioware.

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 17 décembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[zigamortis]

Xd2delo wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Xd2delo wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

Does that message still appear every playthrough after the end?

Not the foggiest. I've not seen anyone discuss datapad since like a week after release.

Was about to say if they're still sending that message after the end than that's odd as hell unless indoctrination is in fact true.

Not sure when the message gets sent (i.e. under what conditions), but the literalist argument would be, under EC Destroy high EMS, it's strongly implied that Shepard survives, and the Normandy is coming back for him.  So under that set of conditions, it's quite possible that the VS is visiting him after that happens.  But I agree, highly irregular.   But then,it's just as odd that Shepard should be in a hospital after an indoctrination attempt.  I mean, by that time, the battle of Earth is either won or lost.  So I suspect that it's of no consequence either way.

But as the explosion in Destroy would kill Shepard and the breath scene takes place on Earth...it basically suggests there was no destroy explosion and Shepard is still on Earth

How Shep survives the explosion is not one I can explain (nor can I imagine how it reasonably could be), but it's a separate issue I think.      But the message itself remains of no consequence I think. 

Either the literalist argument is correct, and it occurs after Shepard's retrieval from whever he was, OR IT is correct and the Anti-reaper forces are (1) holding out for a ridiculously long period of time, as presumably from retrieval forward Shep has been in a coma-like state, and I'm assuming for more than just a little while or else why is the VS sending this, or (2) you're all in full retreat and Shep is on a medical frigate or some such. 

The balance of the probabilities, to my mind, leans towards the first explanation, at least for puposes of the message.

The problem i have with your idea of them holding out for a rediculous amount of time is that the hallucenations would be happening in his mind, almost in a dreamlike manner and dreams can happen and a much more rapid pace than they would actually require to happen in real life.

[BansheeOwnage]

Xd2delo wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Fair play delo!

I honestly think the biggest physical evidence of IT is Shepard breathing on Earth. IT is the only explanation!

No argument from me, and, incidentally, yet another point that was NOT addressed by the EC.  Which may or may not be of consequence, but I think was interesting.  I mean, it was one of the major points raised in the aftermath of the original ending, and unless my memory fails me (a possibility at all times), there wasn't so much as a throwaway line acknowledging it ("Gee Shepard, good thing all N7 armor comes issued with standard reentry pack, which can survive even significant damage to that armor!"  or even Hackett saying something like "The Citadel is breaking apart, but life support still seems to be functioning on the __ /wherever the hell Shepard is".  I mean, obviously, it'd have to be better than that, but something, jeez.)

Agree! They even added its own music track when before it didn't have any. Unfortunately, we can't absolutely prove it's on Earth. I think whoever thinks it's on the citadel should go back to school, but that's beside the point.

I think what Bioware didn't change in the EC is probably more interesting than what they did change. They left many things that didn't make sense/IT hints alone. Just off the top of my head:
1. Anderson going up the beam after you. They could have simply rearranged existing lines to have that make more sense. Or they could have had Keith David do more since he apparently came into studio to do a couple lines for the Earth MP DLC...
2. The breath scene is no different.
3. No explanation for how/why all of your other squadmates showed up on the Normandy.
4. Why do the reapers destroy the crucible while you are deciding?

What can you think of?

[AresKeith]

Off-topic but quick question: Are ponytails very difficult to animate realistically?

[Xd2delo]

zigamortis wrote...

Xd2delo wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Xd2delo wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

Does that message still appear every playthrough after the end?

Not the foggiest. I've not seen anyone discuss datapad since like a week after release.

Was about to say if they're still sending that message after the end than that's odd as hell unless indoctrination is in fact true.

Not sure when the message gets sent (i.e. under what conditions), but the literalist argument would be, under EC Destroy high EMS, it's strongly implied that Shepard survives, and the Normandy is coming back for him.  So under that set of conditions, it's quite possible that the VS is visiting him after that happens.  But I agree, highly irregular.   But then,it's just as odd that Shepard should be in a hospital after an indoctrination attempt.  I mean, by that time, the battle of Earth is either won or lost.  So I suspect that it's of no consequence either way.

But as the explosion in Destroy would kill Shepard and the breath scene takes place on Earth...it basically suggests there was no destroy explosion and Shepard is still on Earth

How Shep survives the explosion is not one I can explain (nor can I imagine how it reasonably could be), but it's a separate issue I think.      But the message itself remains of no consequence I think. 

Either the literalist argument is correct, and it occurs after Shepard's retrieval from whever he was, OR IT is correct and the Anti-reaper forces are (1) holding out for a ridiculously long period of time, as presumably from retrieval forward Shep has been in a coma-like state, and I'm assuming for more than just a little while or else why is the VS sending this, or (2) you're all in full retreat and Shep is on a medical frigate or some such. 

The balance of the probabilities, to my mind, leans towards the first explanation, at least for puposes of the message.

The problem i have with your idea of them holding out for a rediculous amount of time is that the hallucenations would be happening in his mind, almost in a dreamlike manner and dreams can happen and a much more rapid pace than they would actually require to happen in real life.

Likely yes; but then why is this message being sent at all?  If Shep is in the hospital, presumably it is because they had to time to evacuate him and get him squared away.  The message is "hope they let me come and see you today".  That implies, if IT is correct, that it has been at least more than one day that Shep has been in hospital.  If that's true, then either (1) the battle is still going on, and somehow the Reapers haven't wiped everyone out or (2) you're on a medical frigate or something and so is the VS.  (2) seems more likely.  But if (2) is true, then how the HELL are you going to wrap this up?  The might of the galaxy lays in ruins, the Crucible is presumably destroyed....   So therefore this message accords best with a literalist interpretation and is therefore likely inconsequential to our discussions. 

(1) is not impossible.  But it does seem unlikely to me. 

[dorktainian]

[RavenEyry]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I think what Bioware didn't change in the EC is probably more interesting than what they did change. They left many things that didn't make sense/IT hints alone. Just off the top of my head:
1. Anderson going up the beam after you. They could have simply rearranged existing lines to have that make more sense. Or they could have had Keith David do more since he apparently came into studio to do a couple lines for the Earth MP DLC...
2. The breath scene is no different.
3. No explanation for how/why all of your other squadmates showed up on the Normandy.
4. Why do the reapers destroy the crucible while you are deciding?

What can you think of?

5. The explosions in the wrong order. It's one that bugs me every time I see it.

[hukbum]

AresKeith wrote...

Off-topic but quick question: Are ponytails very difficult to animate realistically?

Jep. To do so, you'd need a huge number of "bones" and and had to add collision detection to every piece of clothing/armor etc. No easy task, that's why in games it is mostly used in prerendered scences.

[AresKeith]

hukbum wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Off-topic but quick question: Are ponytails very difficult to animate realistically?

Jep. To do so, you'd need a huge number of "bones" and and had to add collision detection to every piece of clothing/armor etc. No easy task, that's why in games it is mostly used in prerendered scences.

So Ashley can't have a ponytail?

[Xd2delo]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xd2delo wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Fair play delo!

I honestly think the biggest physical evidence of IT is Shepard breathing on Earth. IT is the only explanation!

No argument from me, and, incidentally, yet another point that was NOT addressed by the EC.  Which may or may not be of consequence, but I think was interesting.  I mean, it was one of the major points raised in the aftermath of the original ending, and unless my memory fails me (a possibility at all times), there wasn't so much as a throwaway line acknowledging it ("Gee Shepard, good thing all N7 armor comes issued with standard reentry pack, which can survive even significant damage to that armor!"  or even Hackett saying something like "The Citadel is breaking apart, but life support still seems to be functioning on the __ /wherever the hell Shepard is".  I mean, obviously, it'd have to be better than that, but something, jeez.)

Agree! They even added its own music track when before it didn't have any. Unfortunately, we can't absolutely prove it's on Earth. I think whoever thinks it's on the citadel should go back to school, but that's beside the point.

I think what Bioware didn't change in the EC is probably more interesting than what they did change. They left many things that didn't make sense/IT hints alone. Just off the top of my head:
1. Anderson going up the beam after you. They could have simply rearranged existing lines to have that make more sense. Or they could have had Keith David do more since he apparently came into studio to do a couple lines for the Earth MP DLC...
2. The breath scene is no different.
3. No explanation for how/why all of your other squadmates showed up on the Normandy.
4. Why do the reapers destroy the crucible while you are deciding?

What can you think of?

I think you've covered the essentials, and I definitely feel that this was the most important part of the EC; how it responded to some issues (i.e. the extended, although to me still vague and insubstantial Catalyst dialogue) but completely glossed over others, which could have been fixed just as easily. 

More to the point, if you are the Reapers, why not, as soon as the combined fleet arrives, just destroy the Sol mass relay?  You clearly know how to build them.  You clearly can with this fight, theoretically, and you'll cripple the might of the Citadel races by preventing their retreat more thoroughly than you'll damage your own chances of winning the wider war.  The Harvest can take decades, so what's to lose from taking a bit longer? 

There are clear reasons not to (they use the MRs too).  But it just seemed like a smart play on their part.  Oh, and btw, the Citadel itself is, as far as we know, still a mass relay, right?  So why not use it (assuming it doesn't get all explodey)?  

[paxxton]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

All the literal endings can be invalidated if one examines them thoroughly enough.

It's quite funny cause the so-called literal ending involves indoctrination as well. There is no sensible explanation otherwise. Shepard couldn't have survived the explosion. Making up justifications that have no sense and only complicate things without explaining much (or anything) is not the way to go.

[dorktainian]

[GethPrimeMKII]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xd2delo wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Fair play delo!

I honestly think the biggest physical evidence of IT is Shepard breathing on Earth. IT is the only explanation!

No argument from me, and, incidentally, yet another point that was NOT addressed by the EC.  Which may or may not be of consequence, but I think was interesting.  I mean, it was one of the major points raised in the aftermath of the original ending, and unless my memory fails me (a possibility at all times), there wasn't so much as a throwaway line acknowledging it ("Gee Shepard, good thing all N7 armor comes issued with standard reentry pack, which can survive even significant damage to that armor!"  or even Hackett saying something like "The Citadel is breaking apart, but life support still seems to be functioning on the __ /wherever the hell Shepard is".  I mean, obviously, it'd have to be better than that, but something, jeez.)

Agree! They even added its own music track when before it didn't have any. Unfortunately, we can't absolutely prove it's on Earth. I think whoever thinks it's on the citadel should go back to school, but that's beside the point.

I think what Bioware didn't change in the EC is probably more interesting than what they did change. They left many things that didn't make sense/IT hints alone. Just off the top of my head:
1. Anderson going up the beam after you. They could have simply rearranged existing lines to have that make more sense. Or they could have had Keith David do more since he apparently came into studio to do a couple lines for the Earth MP DLC...
2. The breath scene is no different.
3. No explanation for how/why all of your other squadmates showed up on the Normandy.
4. Why do the reapers destroy the crucible while you are deciding?

What can you think of?

Im sure if we tried we could come up with 50 or so tough question for literal supporters to wrestle with. I dunno why Literal theory isnt scrutinized nearly as much as IT is. 

[RavenEyry]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Im sure if we tried we could come up with 50 or so tough question for literal supporters to wrestle with. I dunno why Literal theory isnt scrutinized nearly as much as IT is. 

Cos bad riting lol.

[BansheeOwnage]

RavenEyry wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I think what Bioware didn't change in the EC is probably more interesting than what they did change. They left many things that didn't make sense/IT hints alone. Just off the top of my head:
1. Anderson going up the beam after you. They could have simply rearranged existing lines to have that make more sense. Or they could have had Keith David do more since he apparently came into studio to do a couple lines for the Earth MP DLC...
2. The breath scene is no different.
3. No explanation for how/why all of your other squadmates showed up on the Normandy.
4. Why do the reapers destroy the crucible while you are deciding?

What can you think of?

5. The explosions in the wrong order. It's one that bugs me every time I see it.

Aha! Knew I missed an important one. The relay explosions were a very well known issue as well. It's basically a 5 second prerendered cutscene... Why leave it?

[Xd2delo]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xd2delo wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Fair play delo!

I honestly think the biggest physical evidence of IT is Shepard breathing on Earth. IT is the only explanation!

No argument from me, and, incidentally, yet another point that was NOT addressed by the EC.  Which may or may not be of consequence, but I think was interesting.  I mean, it was one of the major points raised in the aftermath of the original ending, and unless my memory fails me (a possibility at all times), there wasn't so much as a throwaway line acknowledging it ("Gee Shepard, good thing all N7 armor comes issued with standard reentry pack, which can survive even significant damage to that armor!"  or even Hackett saying something like "The Citadel is breaking apart, but life support still seems to be functioning on the __ /wherever the hell Shepard is".  I mean, obviously, it'd have to be better than that, but something, jeez.)

Agree! They even added its own music track when before it didn't have any. Unfortunately, we can't absolutely prove it's on Earth. I think whoever thinks it's on the citadel should go back to school, but that's beside the point.

I think what Bioware didn't change in the EC is probably more interesting than what they did change. They left many things that didn't make sense/IT hints alone. Just off the top of my head:
1. Anderson going up the beam after you. They could have simply rearranged existing lines to have that make more sense. Or they could have had Keith David do more since he apparently came into studio to do a couple lines for the Earth MP DLC...
2. The breath scene is no different.
3. No explanation for how/why all of your other squadmates showed up on the Normandy.
4. Why do the reapers destroy the crucible while you are deciding?

What can you think of?

Im sure if we tried we could come up with 50 or so tough question for literal supporters to wrestle with. I dunno why Literal theory isnt scrutinized nearly as much as IT is. 

Because any inconsistencies can simply be dismissed as bad writing.  That MUST be a core assumption of Literalist theory.  Otherwise, it becomes absurd.  Only so much can be covered by hiding behind "conventions of the genre".  And as I'll reiterate, I don't think BW are bad writers, as a rule.  That makes me hopeful.

[BansheeOwnage]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Im sure if we tried we could come up with 50 or so tough question for literal supporters to wrestle with. I dunno why Literal theory isnt scrutinized nearly as much as IT is. 

That's true, but my main point was that they left a few well known and strange things in there, not just that it doesn't make sense.

[hukbum]

AresKeith wrote...

hukbum wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Off-topic but quick question: Are ponytails very difficult to animate realistically?

Jep. To do so, you'd need a huge number of "bones" and and had to add collision detection to every piece of clothing/armor etc. No easy task, that's why in games it is mostly used in prerendered scences.

So Ashley can't have a ponytail?

Of course she can, there are ponytails for femShep, right? I think it woudln't be that hard to mod one onto Ash. Don't know if annimated though ...

[demersel]

AresKeith wrote...

hukbum wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Off-topic but quick question: Are ponytails very difficult to animate realistically?

Jep. To do so, you'd need a huge number of "bones" and and had to add collision detection to every piece of clothing/armor etc. No easy task, that's why in games it is mostly used in prerendered scences.

So Ashley can't have a ponytail?

Not difficult. Jack has ponytail in ME3. 
Female character had ponytails as possib;e haircut in both kator games. 

[Xd2delo]

RavenEyry wrote...

Cos bad riting lol.

Concise, but to the point. 

[paxxton]

dorktainian wrote...

The first is a curve, the second - a straight line.

[AresKeith]

hukbum wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

hukbum wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Off-topic but quick question: Are ponytails very difficult to animate realistically?

Jep. To do so, you'd need a huge number of "bones" and and had to add collision detection to every piece of clothing/armor etc. No easy task, that's why in games it is mostly used in prerendered scences.

So Ashley can't have a ponytail?

Of course she can, there are ponytails for femShep, right? I think it woudln't be that hard to mod one onto Ash. Don't know if annimated though ...

I would rather have them do it with a new Alt Appearance Pack, along with a new heavy/Medium armor for her lol

[Andromidius]

zigamortis wrote...
The problem i have with your idea of them holding out for a rediculous amount of time is that the hallucenations would be happening in his mind, almost in a dreamlike manner and dreams can happen and a much more rapid pace than they would actually require to happen in real life.

Yep.  Dreams seem to last for hours, but often take part in just a few minutes of sleep.

[BansheeOwnage]

AresKeith wrote...

hukbum wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Off-topic but quick question: Are ponytails very difficult to animate realistically?

Jep. To do so, you'd need a huge number of "bones" and and had to add collision detection to every piece of clothing/armor etc. No easy task, that's why in games it is mostly used in prerendered scences.

So Ashley can't have a ponytail?

Of course she could, Shepard can have one! Hair is always hard to do right in games. One of the best ponytails in a game I've seen in Crysis 1. Great physics engine.

Edit: Wow. I was ninga'd so badly even the wording was almost the same. Well played Hukbum. Well played.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:09 .