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[paxxton]

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Looking at the endings from an IT standpoint,

Can anyone see Refuse as being the way out of the indoctrination? Because even when you know there is no other way out, you're still remaining completely incorruptable to your morals and beliefs?

I guess if I'm being kind I can see it as being a way out. I dont think it should be though, because you dont keep your resolve to destroy the Reapers no matter the cost in it. You decide some costs are too great, and dont take the chance to wipe them out when it is presented to you.

Wait, wait, wait. It's Reaper Hackett who constantly shouts "at all cost, no matter the cost." That's not what Shepard would do. Hackett sits ducks in his comfy base and doesn't fight at the frontline. It's easy for him to say that.

Modifié par paxxton, 18 décembre 2012 - 11:09 .

[Restrider]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Looking at the endings from an IT standpoint,

Can anyone see Refuse as being the way out of the indoctrination? Because even when you know there is no other way out, you're still remaining completely incorruptable to your morals and beliefs?

Being the only way out?
Not really, since Destroy has the breath scene and the Guardian tries to convince you not to choose it.

Being one way out?
Yes. And I hope it is an option, since in my opinion Destroy/Refuse >> Control >> Synthesis in regards of IT.

[byne]

paxxton wrote...

Wait, wait, wait. It's Reaper Hackett who constantly shouts "at all cost, no matter the cost." That's not what Shepard would do. Hackett sits ducks in his comfy base and doesn't fight at the frontline. It's easy for him to say that.

I'd sacrifice a lot more than just the geth if it meant ridding the galaxy of the Reapers. Stopping the Reapers is what Shepard would do. It's been what Shepard would do for the majority of the series.

[Restrider]

The lack of any kind of breath scene in Refuse has one simple reason:

If we had a breath scene in Refuse (between Liara's VI and the stargazer scene), everyone would know that IT (or something similar) is what happened. No doubts left, no speculation, no head-twisting reveal.

[paxxton]

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Wait, wait, wait. It's Reaper Hackett who constantly shouts "at all cost, no matter the cost." That's not what Shepard would do. Hackett sits ducks in his comfy base and doesn't fight at the frontline. It's easy for him to say that.

I'd sacrifice a lot more than just the geth if it meant ridding the galaxy of the Reapers. Stopping the Reapers is what Shepard would do. It's been what Shepard would do for the majority of the series.

I'm good with Control. Everybody's happy.

[masster blaster]

Hroth how is refuse Paragon. I am going to let everyone die because I can't Destroy the Reapers because EDI, and the Geth will die, so I will refuse to save everyone the trouble of fighting the Reapers, and let more people die, that may include the Geth, and EDI. All because I can't kill The Reapers because EDI, and the Geth will die. Ya that does sound like Paragon more like the best Renegade option for Literal. For IT it's for me not paragon, but Renegade. Destroy it goes both ways renegade or paragon, but didn't we not Destroy the Collector base, and was it not paragon choice.

Never in any of my Shepard's play throughs has Shepard not wanting to make a choice because other people may die by his/her actions.

[paxxton]

ok nm

Modifié par paxxton, 18 décembre 2012 - 11:43 .

[Jadebaby]

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Looking at the endings from an IT standpoint,

Can anyone see Refuse as being the way out of the indoctrination? Because even when you know there is no other way out, you're still remaining completely incorruptable to your morals and beliefs?

I guess if I'm being kind I can see it as being a way out. I dont think it should be though, because you dont keep your resolve to destroy the Reapers no matter the cost in it. You decide some costs are too great, and dont take the chance to wipe them out when it is presented to you.

"I fight for freedom, mine and everybody's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate, and if I die, I'll die knowing that I die everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

Doesn't sound like your resolve is giving in to me. In fact, it takes more resolve to refuse than to destroy because you know that the reapers would be destroyed in that ending. It also makes sense because it gives a reason to why the Catalyst would want to trick you by offering to destroy them.

Hrothdane wrote...
I could see that being the case. It would mean that the original ending had no real "out," but I could see BioWare going in that direction quite easily. The lack of breath scene is something else that would need to be addressed.

People would certainly complain, but most ITers already seem to agree that IT itself is a good idea but that BioWare could have implemented it better.

I personally like the idea of both destroy and refuse offering ways out. Destroy could be the "renegade" option and refuse could be the "paragon" option.

Yea, me too. I asked this question totally seperate of the breath scene, just pretend it doesn't exist. The scene was never what made me believe in IT and It's definitely not IT's strongest evidence.

All I know is that BioWare themselves said they never intended to put the breath scene in, but did because "the endings looked to bleak" I'm guessing that was to the literally interpretation, because, even with it. They still had to make the EC.
So I see it the same way I see the EC. A scene there to try and null the masses before the reveal. In a non-literal interpretation obviously.

[The Heretic of Time]

masster blaster wrote...

Jade I am up for refuse, but I don't know about IT. It would have to have a breath scene, or showing Shepard waking up, however I see refuse as sorry for this bs.

I mean Shepard dies knowing that he/she did everything he/she could to stop the Reapers? I am sorry, but that's why the ending Destroy is there. Kill Reapers. I doubt Shepard knows that he/she is being Indoctrinated, and the main reason refuse was added because people hated the endings/ wanted to say screw you brat.

I see refuse as standing your ground and nothing more.

I mean heck literal, or IT Destroy is what we are told to do, by NON Indoctrinated people.

So it just depends on if they add a breath scene, or showing Shepard wake up.

I don't understand half of what you just said. Plain English sentences would greatly improve your comments, no offense.


And yes, we do get shoehorned into the "destroy the reapers" mentality in ME3, something which I dislike greatly, because first of all I don't agree with it and second of all it makes the Control and Synthesis option wierd and out of place. I know that you try to explain this with IT, but I don't believe in IT and I don't even like IT.

The Illusive Man should have been handled better. Him being indoctrinated at the end of the game felt like a complete cop-out. It would have been so much more interesting to see Anderson of Hackett becoming indoctrinated instead. Now THAT would have been interesting storytelling!


Thing is, you're driving this away from the point I made: That BioWare doesn't see how ironic the A, B, C choices are at the end. They didn't give us a boss battle because it's supposedly "video-gamey", yet they give us A, B, C endings which are also video-gamey as hell.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 décembre 2012 - 11:13 .

[hukbum]

I would be carefull to completly dismiss refuse.
If IT is true, than BW is a company trolling it's customers for over a year.

So Refuse could be trolling the IT-Destroy people by saying "nah, you've not always been right.".

[masster blaster]

Fur28 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Okay so about the boss fight, well there is the endings. You need to battle Shepard's mind/ willpower. If Shepard can't Destroy the Reapers, then you fail. Yes peace happence in Synthesis, but everyone has changed, not. Just DNA, but personalitys.

Control yes Shepard controls the Reapers, but why order them to kill themselfs, after rebuilding the galaxy. So the Organics, and Synthetics can rest in peace.

Refuse yes Shepard is standing his/her ground, but to fight the Reapers, and he/she did everything to stop the Reapers. Yet Destroy is right there, so no Shepard didn't do everything he/she could. The only reason why people pick refuse because they hate the endings/ hate what the brat tells them.

Destroy is the prime goal because that's what Shepard was going to do.

Now from what I think Destroy is showing the galaxy is ready to stand by itself.

Refuse can also be a not thrusting anything the starkid says option, how do you know the destroy option will work, it didn´t in low-ems, so shepard can think that if the Crucible is a no-go, then lets fight with the army he collected through the game is the only option left

And that's why you pick Destroy. Yes even I don't trust the kid, but it's what I came there to do, and it's the ending it does not like. Hell he tells us that all Synthetics will be targeted, yet in Control Reapers/ the hsuk army are targeted. Ya I and to top it of Shepard is partly Synthetic meaning he/she will die to, yet no.

Also then that's the players fault. Their Shepard could not break free because the player could not get the ems, and made the wrong choice.

[Restrider]

masster blaster wrote...

Hroth how is refuse Paragon. I am going to let everyone die because I can't Destroy the Reapers because EDI, and the Geth will die, so I will refuse to save everyone the trouble of fighting the Reapers, and let more people die, that may include the Geth, and EDI. All because I can't kill The Reapers because EDI, and the Geth will die. Ya that does sound like Paragon more like the best Renegade option for Literal. For IT it's for me not paragon, but Renegade. Destroy it goes both ways renegade or paragon, but didn't we not Destroy the Collector base, and was it not paragon choice.

Never in any of my Shepard's play throughs has Shepard not wanting to make a choice because other people may die by his/her actions.

The question is, what do you think your Shepard thinks?

Does s/he pick Refuse because s/he cannot make a hard decision and he believes the Guardian? Then it is just a stupid - but moral - stance that gets everyone killed. If you try to save everyone, trusting the Guardian, then pick Control, fix everything you can fix and fly the Reapers into a black hole.

Does s/he pick Refuse because the Guardian(=Reapers) cannot be trusted in anything they say? This is more of an IT reason to choose Refuse (and that was one reason I've chosen it in my first playthrough).

How people think of Refuse (in IT) usually boils down to the question why Shepard chooses it (indecision vs. lack of trust).

[Hrothdane]

masster blaster wrote...

Hroth how is refuse Paragon. I am going to let everyone die because I can't Destroy the Reapers because EDI, and the Geth will die, so I will refuse to save everyone the trouble of fighting the Reapers, and let more people die, that may include the Geth, and EDI. All because I can't kill The Reapers because EDI, and the Geth will die. Ya that does sound like Paragon more like the best Renegade option for Literal. For IT it's for me not paragon, but Renegade. Destroy it goes both ways renegade or paragon, but didn't we not Destroy the Collector base, and was it not paragon choice.

Never in any of my Shepard's play throughs has Shepard not wanting to make a choice because other people may die by his/her actions.

I was merely giving one possible interpretation. If Refuse actually leads to a victory option, Shepard still defeats the Reapers without having to do so on their terms and sacrificing addtional people. In the context of two victory options, Destroy would be the one that has unnecessary casualties. It could be argued the other way of course, but it would all have to depend on how BioWare presents the two situations post hallucination. Refuse might still allow victory but cost more lives in the long run.

[byne]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Looking at the endings from an IT standpoint,

Can anyone see Refuse as being the way out of the indoctrination? Because even when you know there is no other way out, you're still remaining completely incorruptable to your morals and beliefs?

I guess if I'm being kind I can see it as being a way out. I dont think it should be though, because you dont keep your resolve to destroy the Reapers no matter the cost in it. You decide some costs are too great, and dont take the chance to wipe them out when it is presented to you.

"I fight for freedom, mine and everybody's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate, and if I die, I'll die knowing that I die everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

Doesn't sound like your resolve is giving in to me. In fact, it takes more resolve to refuse than to destroy because you know that the reapers would be destroyed in that ending. It also makes sense because it gives a reason to why the Catalyst would want to trick you by offering to destroy them.

You can pretty it up with fancy speeches about why you cant get off your high horse and do what is needed to be done, but in the end, you're giving up and dooming the galaxy. Shepard doesnt know this is an indoctrination attempt, so I'm judging it based on its literal basis.

If Shep knew it was an indoctrination attempt, and told godchild to **** off, I could get behind that, but she doesnt. All she knows is that she has three options to defeat the Reapers, and chooses none.

Only a delusional Shepard would believe conventional victory is possible, so she knows she is dooming the galaxy as well.

I really really dont like refuse, if you cant tell.

[masster blaster]

Refuse is still up for debate, but for now I don't see refuse with IT, unless breath scene.

[Fur28]

masster blaster wrote...

Fur28 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Okay so about the boss fight, well there is the endings. You need to battle Shepard's mind/ willpower. If Shepard can't Destroy the Reapers, then you fail. Yes peace happence in Synthesis, but everyone has changed, not. Just DNA, but personalitys.

Control yes Shepard controls the Reapers, but why order them to kill themselfs, after rebuilding the galaxy. So the Organics, and Synthetics can rest in peace.

Refuse yes Shepard is standing his/her ground, but to fight the Reapers, and he/she did everything to stop the Reapers. Yet Destroy is right there, so no Shepard didn't do everything he/she could. The only reason why people pick refuse because they hate the endings/ hate what the brat tells them.

Destroy is the prime goal because that's what Shepard was going to do.

Now from what I think Destroy is showing the galaxy is ready to stand by itself.

Refuse can also be a not thrusting anything the starkid says option, how do you know the destroy option will work, it didn´t in low-ems, so shepard can think that if the Crucible is a no-go, then lets fight with the army he collected through the game is the only option left

And that's why you pick Destroy. Yes even I don't trust the kid, but it's what I came there to do, and it's the ending it does not like. Hell he tells us that all Synthetics will be targeted, yet in Control Reapers/ the hsuk army are targeted. Ya I and to top it of Shepard is partly Synthetic meaning he/she will die to, yet no.

Also then that's the players fault. Their Shepard could not break free because the player could not get the ems, and made the wrong choice.

He also does not like Refuse, all the endings have downsides in wich shepard and the universe suffer the consequences. Control ans Synthesis are the only ones we´re not told what those conseguences were.
Dont really get how EMS affects shepard breaing out from Indoctrinatin, could you explain?

And my point was that choosing Refuse wasn´t necesairly because someone hates the ending, it can be becuase all three endings could be traps. 

[Restrider]

If we look at the Guardian's ranking of the endings we can clearly see the following order:

Synthesis > Control > Destroy >> Refuse

Now, I have heard the explanation (both literal and IT) for the Guardian's behavior in Refuse, but I am not entirely convinced by it. And personally, I think that even Control and Synthesis should have a way to break free from indoctrination.
If there is only one correct ending, I guess it is probably Destroy. If there are more, Refuse is the next probable candidate on the list for me, followed by Control.

Modifié par Restrider, 18 décembre 2012 - 11:34 .

[Hrothdane]

byne wrote...

You can pretty it up with fancy speeches about why you cant get off your high horse and do what is needed to be done, but in the end, you're giving up and dooming the galaxy. Shepard doesnt know this is an indoctrination attempt, so I'm judging it based on its literal basis.

If Shep knew it was an indoctrination attempt, and told godchild to **** off, I could get behind that, but she doesnt. All she knows is that she has three options to defeat the Reapers, and chooses none.

Only a delusional Shepard would believe conventional victory is possible, so she knows she is dooming the galaxy as well.

I really really dont like refuse, if you cant tell.

It doesn't even have to be a conventional victory. It could even still involve using the Crucible. As other people have suggested, maybe shutting down Harbinger/The Intelligence will shut down the other Reapers or turn off their indoctrination signal.

Shepard refusing the Catalyst's options doesn't necessarily mean the Shepard has suddenly decided that the Crucible itself is stupid and worthless. He/she just refuses to use it based on the Catalyst's options.

Once again, I'm not saying that I think Refuse necessarily is going to be a good option; I'm merely saying how I think BioWare would go with it if they chose to.

[byne]

Hrothdane wrote...

byne wrote...

You can pretty it up with fancy speeches about why you cant get off your high horse and do what is needed to be done, but in the end, you're giving up and dooming the galaxy. Shepard doesnt know this is an indoctrination attempt, so I'm judging it based on its literal basis.

If Shep knew it was an indoctrination attempt, and told godchild to **** off, I could get behind that, but she doesnt. All she knows is that she has three options to defeat the Reapers, and chooses none.

Only a delusional Shepard would believe conventional victory is possible, so she knows she is dooming the galaxy as well.

I really really dont like refuse, if you cant tell.

It doesn't even have to be a conventional victory. It could even still involve using the Crucible. As other people have suggested, maybe shutting down Harbinger/The Intelligence will shut down the other Reapers or turn off their indoctrination signal.

Shepard refusing the Catalyst's options doesn't necessarily mean the Shepard has suddenly decided that the Crucible itself is stupid and worthless. He/she just refuses to use it based on the Catalyst's options.

Once again, I'm not saying that I think Refuse necessarily is going to be a good option; I'm merely saying how I think BioWare would go with it if they chose to.

Do you think the Reapers are just going to sit around and politely ignore the Crucible while Shepard figures out a way to use it that suits her?

[Jadebaby]

Oh the irony of telling someone else they're on a high horse, totally done here.

[byne]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Oh the irony of telling someone else they're on a high horse, totally done here.

I'm not saying you're on a high horse, Jade. I'm saying refuse Shepard is.

I like you, and would never say that about you, but you claiming there is irony in what I said clearly indicates you dont feel the same, and would indeed say such about me, which is a real shame.

[byne]

From Jade's thread:

he has an IT interpretation and likes refuse, those are mutually exclusive beliefs.

Jade, if you're still here, why even ask about IT and refuse if this is your position?

[Rifneno]

Restrider wrote...

The lack of any kind of breath scene in Refuse has one simple reason:

If we had a breath scene in Refuse (between Liara's VI and the stargazer scene), everyone would know that IT (or something similar) is what happened. No doubts left, no speculation, no head-twisting reveal.

You greatly overestimate literalists' ability to draw logical conclusions.

[Hrothdane]

@byne

It's a hallucination designed to indoctrinate Shepard. Shepard will probably immediately escape it after showing he/she is not going to play ball with Starbinger and then go on to use the Crucible in real life. Alternatively, Shepard will figure out a way to bypass Starbinger in the hallucination while he tries to convince him/her that it is useless.

[Rifneno]

Hrothdane wrote...

@byne

It's a hallucination designed to indoctrinate Shepard. Shepard will probably immediately escape it after showing he/she is not going to play ball with Starbinger and then go on to use the Crucible in real life. Alternatively, Shepard will figure out a way to bypass Starbinger in the hallucination while he tries to convince him/her that it is useless.

How's Shepard going to use a giant Reaper womb to wipe out the Reapers?