80611 réponses à ce sujet

[TheProtheans]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Destroy can never be a trap because it's the one thing Starbinger doesn't want you to pick. He's like a used car salesman trying to steer you away from the cheapest car so you can buy the expensive car because the commission would benefit him.

Unless you really think he's using reverse-psychology, and all indications seem to be he's not since he's actively steering you towards Synthesis.

Steering you towards Synthesis would be reverse-psychology.
He wants you to pick, if you pick then you're in the game and if you're in the game then you will be indoctrinated.
Because if he didn't steer towards an option then you might think all the options were false because he wasn't trying hard enough to convince you on what you thought the Reapers would want.


Unrelated;
A delusional Shepard without knowing would pick refuse and a delusional Shepard without knowing would accept choices from the Reapers.

[jojon2se]

CoolioThane wrote...

Shepard the character would never give up.
Player, knowing what we know about the ending, could think Refuse is best.

Different, I.e. I can

Frankly; Are you arguing for or against?

Modifié par jojon2se, 19 décembre 2012 - 01:19 .

[Fur28]

CoolioThane wrote...

Shepard the character would never give up.
Player, knowing what we know about the ending, could think Refuse is best.

Different, I.e. I can

shepard is an avatar that does what the player says, acting condecending towards the shepard´s actions also attacks the player

[byne]

jojon2se wrote...

byne wrote...

I can respect a player's reason for choosing refuse. I cannot respect Shepard's reasons for choosing refuse.

In that case you are going to have to provide a non-metagaming explanation for exactly how those differ, without unduly imposing anybody's arbitrary idea of Shepard's mental state, over another's.

I.e: You can't, e.g, cite slouching post-refuse Shepard as an argument.

Mostly I can sympathize with a player hating godchild and his bull****, and telling him to go straight to hell, but I cant sympathize with a Shepard who does the same, because for the Shepard it is real life. She isnt just fed up with video game stupidity. She is making choices that impact real people.

I guess what it boils down to is that I can respect a player wanting to take their chances and try to win conventionally, but in real life I would think the person who didnt pick an option is gambling the entire galaxy unnecessarily, and the stakes are far too high for that.

[BansheeOwnage]

Fur28 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Well we are the Indoctrination Theorists

with my laziness and english hating autocorrect... nope i need an abreviation

Here's the real answer, sorry for the Legion sidetrack. ITers is the most common term but some also use ITists. Same thing.

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

Mostly I can sympathize with a player hating godchild and his bull****, and telling him to go straight to hell, but I cant sympathize with a Shepard who does the same, because for the Shepard it is real life. She isnt just fed up with video game stupidity. She is making choices that impact real people.

Here's a shorter answer: Avatar/Player Shep is looking at it from a doylist (writer's or audience's) perspective, while Character Shep is looking at it from a Watsonist (in universe/character's) perspective.

[byne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Fur28 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Well we are the Indoctrination Theorists

with my laziness and english hating autocorrect... nope i need an abreviation

Here's the real answer, sorry for the Legion sidetrack. ITers is the most common term but some also use ITists. Same thing.

Thats what I said at the very beginning, though.

[CmdrShep80]

This is completely unrelated but it was in an article unrelated to the game. Thought it was a bit ironic:

On another front, private equity company Cerberus Capital Management reported that it’s selling off its entire investment in Bushmaster and returning any profit made to investors. Cerberus bought Bushmaster in 2006, then merged it with additional gun companies that include Remington to create Freedom Group, which reported net sales of $677 million for the first nine months of 2012, up $112 million from 2011.

In a statement, Cerberus said, "It is not our role to take positions, or attempt to shape or influence the gun control policy debate. That is the job of our federal and state legislators. There are, however, actions that we as a firm can take."

The announcement came one day after the California State Teachers Retirement System, a large pension fund, told The Wall Street Journal that it was reviewing its $500 million investment commitment to Cerberus because of the firm’s stake in Freedom Group.

[Maffers]

 Here's an interesting article: http://www.eurogamer...int-of-the-game

“This all comes from my sense that players shouldn't be talked down to. For me, there's a kind of caustic relationship that's developed between players and developers. It's really a bad, abusive relationship, because developers say 'Players won't get it anyway, so we're just gonna do something that holds their hand,'" Yohalem explained. "It doesn't respect them, and then players say 'I hate this,' or 'I hate that,' or 'This game sucks,' and that hurts developers. So it's like a cycle. It also feels like critics aren't looking for meaning in the game, either. So it's like all sides have just stopped listening to each other.”

[TheProtheans]

byne wrote...

[
Mostly I can sympathize with a player hating godchild and his bull****, and telling him to go straight to hell, but I cant sympathize with a Shepard who does the same, because for the Shepard it is real life. She isnt just fed up with video game stupidity. She is making choices that impact real people.

I guess what it boils down to is that I can respect a player wanting to take their chances and try to win conventionally, but in real life I would think the person who didnt pick an option is gambling the entire galaxy unnecessarily, and the stakes are far too high for that.

You're gambling yourself.
You know everything, you have first hand experience at what the Reapers do.
You know how they operate and you know what lengths they will go to.

Saren, TIM, Kenson and many others tried the same thing, you know how it ends.
Why try the same thing again and expect different results.

[Fur28]

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Fur28 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Well we are the Indoctrination Theorists

with my laziness and english hating autocorrect... nope i need an abreviation

Here's the real answer, sorry for the Legion sidetrack. ITers is the most common term but some also use ITists. Same thing.

Thats what I said at the very beginning, though.

Yes

[BansheeOwnage]

Maffers wrote...

 Here's an interesting article: http://www.eurogamer...int-of-the-game

“This all comes from my sense that players shouldn't be talked down to. For me, there's a kind of caustic relationship that's developed between players and developers. It's really a bad, abusive relationship, because developers say 'Players won't get it anyway, so we're just gonna do something that holds their hand,'" Yohalem explained. "It doesn't respect them, and then players say 'I hate this,' or 'I hate that,' or 'This game sucks,' and that hurts developers. So it's like a cycle. It also feels like critics aren't looking for meaning in the game, either. So it's like all sides have just stopped listening to each other.”

Interesting. Could ME3 be one of the few examples of non-handholding?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 19 décembre 2012 - 01:38 .

[paxxton]

TheProtheans wrote...

byne wrote...

[
Mostly I can sympathize with a player hating godchild and his bull****, and telling him to go straight to hell, but I cant sympathize with a Shepard who does the same, because for the Shepard it is real life. She isnt just fed up with video game stupidity. She is making choices that impact real people.

I guess what it boils down to is that I can respect a player wanting to take their chances and try to win conventionally, but in real life I would think the person who didnt pick an option is gambling the entire galaxy unnecessarily, and the stakes are far too high for that.

You're gambling yourself.
You know everything, you have first hand experience at what the Reapers do.
You know how they operate and you know what lengths they will go to.

Saren, TIM, Kenson and many others tried the same thing, you know how it ends.
Why try the same thing again and expect different results.

TheProtheans, you out of everyone shoud know that IT is true.

[MaximizedAction]

Maffers wrote...

 Here's an interesting article: http://www.eurogamer...int-of-the-game

“This all comes from my sense that players shouldn't be talked down to. For me, there's a kind of caustic relationship that's developed between players and developers. It's really a bad, abusive relationship, because developers say 'Players won't get it anyway, so we're just gonna do something that holds their hand,'" Yohalem explained. "It doesn't respect them, and then players say 'I hate this,' or 'I hate that,' or 'This game sucks,' and that hurts developers. So it's like a cycle. It also feels like critics aren't looking for meaning in the game, either. So it's like all sides have just stopped listening to each other.”

Well...9 months ago I don't remember reading one gaming magazine review of ME3 that touched the ending for more than 1 sentence.
And yes, I do notice this hand-holding very much in today's games, especially in EA games. And I do feel treated like a kindergarten child.
Communication breakdowns everywhere, and at the end the final product suffers and with it all parties.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 19 décembre 2012 - 01:39 .

[Krimzie]

Maffers wrote...

 Here's an interesting article: http://www.eurogamer...int-of-the-game

“This all comes from my sense that players shouldn't be talked down to. For me, there's a kind of caustic relationship that's developed between players and developers. It's really a bad, abusive relationship, because developers say 'Players won't get it anyway, so we're just gonna do something that holds their hand,'" Yohalem explained. "It doesn't respect them, and then players say 'I hate this,' or 'I hate that,' or 'This game sucks,' and that hurts developers. So it's like a cycle. It also feels like critics aren't looking for meaning in the game, either. So it's like all sides have just stopped listening to each other.”

Very interesting article. I'm a promoter of the "show it, don't just talk about it" mindset -- I'm not saying Far Cry 3 didn't show it (I haven't played it), so that's just a general statement. I really do think the audiences of any media will eventually catch up to challenges, but only if there are consequences for doing otherwise. In other words, if developers really want to alter the depth and analysis of video game narratives, they have to stop making hybrid experiences, and stop offering options that skirt around heavy thinking, like Action Mode, or like focusing more on co-op/MP than single player, narrative-driven campaigns. Just my $0.02. 

I also think that game criticism needs a huge overhaul regarding ethicality and responsible research, but that's a whole 'nother thing... (or is it?)

EDIT TO ADD:

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Maffers wrote...

*snip*

Interesting. Could ME3 be one of the few examples of non-handholding?

I think that ME3 probably did want very badly to not handhold, but found out after release that either they A) went wrong somewhere in the narrative structure (probably Action Mode, or promoting ME3 as a "great place to start" and thus throwing their own lore under the bus) or their audiences weren't ready for it -- either way, they took action as if it was their fault with the EC, and that's honorable. Not once did any ME dev even hint that their work was "too much" or over people's heads -- and no, I don't think that's what "artistic integrity" means, before someone goes there. 

Modifié par Krimzie, 19 décembre 2012 - 01:43 .

[paxxton]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Maffers wrote...

 Here's an interesting article: http://www.eurogamer...int-of-the-game

“This all comes from my sense that players shouldn't be talked down to. For me, there's a kind of caustic relationship that's developed between players and developers. It's really a bad, abusive relationship, because developers say 'Players won't get it anyway, so we're just gonna do something that holds their hand,'" Yohalem explained. "It doesn't respect them, and then players say 'I hate this,' or 'I hate that,' or 'This game sucks,' and that hurts developers. So it's like a cycle. It also feels like critics aren't looking for meaning in the game, either. So it's like all sides have just stopped listening to each other.”

Well...9 months ago I don't remember reading one gaming magazine review of ME3 that touched the ending for more than 1 sentence.
And yes, I do notice this hand-holding very much in today's games, especially in EA games. And I do feel treated like a kindergarten child.
Communication breakdowns everywhere, and at the end the final product suffers and with it all parties.

You should play Myst series then.

[MaximizedAction]

paxxton wrote...
You should play Myst series then.

No, I know there are games out there that offer very little help. And it's nice for a change! Brings out the good old rage when I'm replaying the same mission for the 6th time.
Never played Myst but it's also a bit older so I guess it isn't all 'casualised' yet.

[CmdrShep80]

Ya the thing is too many people have gotten used to games that are just point and move and score points and score an achievement

People haven't really played games that require deep thought and analysis. They would just pass those off as puzzle games and wouldn't even consider them to be RPG

[CmdrShep80]

Yep, Myst and Syberia are just awesome games to play with an interesting take on the world

[paxxton]

MaximizedAction wrote...

paxxton wrote...
You should play Myst series then.

No, I know there are games out there that offer very little help. And it's nice for a change! Brings out the good old rage when I'm replaying the same mission for the 6th time.
Never played Myst but it's also a bit older so I guess it isn't all 'casualised' yet.

The first Myst and the second Riven are indeed ancient games. But 3, 4 and 5 are from the 2000s.

EDIT: @CmdrShep80: True, Syberia I and II were awesome.

Modifié par paxxton, 19 décembre 2012 - 01:51 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Krimzie wrote...


I also think that game criticism needs a huge overhaul regarding ethicality and responsible research, but that's a whole 'nother thing... (or is it?)

EDIT TO ADD:

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Maffers wrote...

*snip*

Interesting. Could ME3 be one of the few examples of non-handholding?

I think that ME3 probably did want very badly to not handhold, but found out after release that either they A) went wrong somewhere in the narrative structure (probably Action Mode, or promoting ME3 as a "great place to start" and thus throwing their own lore under the bus) or their audiences weren't ready for it -- either way, they took action as if it was their fault with the EC, and that's honorable. Not once did any ME dev even hint that their work was "too much" or over people's heads -- and no, I don't think that's what "artistic integrity" means, before someone goes there. 

I agree wholely. Also, just because you're a writer, "a whole 'nother thing" is not gramatically correct, since 'nother is an abbreviation for another. "A whole another thing." Not trying to nag.

[Ithurael]

Hey guys, not ME3 related or neccessarily IT. but it seems that some people didn't really 'get' Far Cry 3's narrative as spoken by one of the writers

SPOILERS to Far Cry 3 (but the do let you know where the spoilers are)
Clickey

Maybe we gamers are just too ADD...maybe we need to pay attention to things. (and by we I mean myself and others  )

I will admit there are scenes in that game that make me think that the entire game is a dream (the alice in wonderland quotes help). Maybe that is the problem with deep narratives that are too ambiguous. People go through them and at about 2/3 of the way through they think they know everything.

Still though, Far Cry 3 is an awesome game. Get this...it even has a 'video gamey' boss fight lol.

[Rifneno]

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

[jojon2se]

byne wrote...

Mostly I can sympathize with a player hating godchild and his bull****, and telling him to go straight to hell, but I cant sympathize with a Shepard who does the same, because for the Shepard it is real life. She isnt just fed up with video game stupidity. She is making choices that impact real people.

I guess what it boils down to is that I can respect a player wanting to take their chances and try to win conventionally, but in real life I would think the person who didnt pick an option is gambling the entire galaxy unnecessarily, and the stakes are far too high for that.

So your "amnesty" only extends to players who refuse pretty much out-of-game, out of spite for the writers and are of the impression that this is the only reason anybody ever picks that option?

You also, in effect, say above that Shepard's choice must be taken believing the face values of the options.
Is that really fair? Are we really supposed to think Shepard is that dim-witted, even without any extra information and expectations we as players have? That argument rather undermines IT.

EDIT: Well, good night. If you reply and for some incomprahensible reason want a response, do specifically write that - otherwise I'll try to spare the thread more of my blabbering - at least if several pages have gone by.

Modifié par jojon2se, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:14 .

[Krimzie]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I agree wholely. Also, just because you're a writer, "a whole 'nother thing" is not gramatically correct, since 'nother is an abbreviation for another. "A whole another thing." Not trying to nag.

Hee! What a nag. Of course I know grammar, sir! I'm a 4.0 English major! I just use slang online to craft a pleasant and approachable persona. /bruisedego
Also, "whole 'nother thing" is abused in Philly slang and I apologize. :innocent:

Modifié par Krimzie, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:01 .