80611 réponses à ce sujet

[paxxton]

Rifneno wrote...

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

And you could still finish the game?

[Rifneno]

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

And you could still finish the game?

It's a sandbox game. There is no "finish." There's a main quest, but there's no "it's over".

[BansheeOwnage]

Krimzie wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I agree wholely. Also, just because you're a writer, "a whole 'nother thing" is not gramatically correct, since 'nother is an abbreviation for another. "A whole another thing." Not trying to nag.

Hee! What a nag. Of course I know grammar, sir! I'm a 4.0 English major! I just use slang online to craft a pleasant and approachable persona. /bruisedego
Also, "whole 'nother thing" is abused in Philly slang and I apologize. :innocent:

Sorry, I feel a little bad for doing that.   And I'm nowhere near an English major. Good job!

[paxxton]

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

And you could still finish the game?

It's a sandbox game. There is no "finish." There's a main quest, but there's no "it's over".

Yeah, but wasn't there some kind of main plot or something? What was the goal? And if there was one could it have been achieved after killing a main NPC?

[Rifneno]

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

And you could still finish the game?

It's a sandbox game. There is no "finish." There's a main quest, but there's no "it's over".

Yeah, but wasn't there some kind of main plot or something? What was the goal? And if there was one could it have been achieved after killing a main NPC?

That's the entire point: you can kill people that are essential to the main quest.  How could they be essential if you could still do it without them?  Though alchemy was so hilariously broken that you could survive holding Keening and Sunder (which are scripted to kill you if you equip them without Wraithguard from the main quest) and do it anyway if you knew exactly what you're supposed to do.  I don't think that part was intended though.

[Krimzie]

@Banshee Heh, don't feel bad at all! I was only touchy because you're right and I'm defensive. I'll be honest... my grammar gets pretty crappy from time to time. It's why three-quarters of my writing time is spent editing.


But anyway, thinking about that article... this is just general ranting, not Far Cry 3 related (again, didn't play it). I actually believe that if you are trying to bend a genre, or change expectations of a medium, you can't tell people they're wrong when they don't get it, nor can you try to tell people what you're attempting to do with your work rather than SHOWING them THROUGH the work. Things that play with expectations should be able to stand on their own, you know? In the world of social media and internet journalism, writers and creators get to be like, "no, no, no, THIS is what I meant" and that's just silly. If it didn't come across for a large majority, you did it wrong. Maybe in execution. Maybe you marketed it to the wrong crowd. Who knows?

Additionally, audiences will usually rise to the occasion when presented with challenging concepts -- given the concepts are delivered effectively. Matrix or Inception might be "action-y" but they showcase heady ideas that now seem second-nature to even the most general of audiences because of good execution. I don't think it's some black magic of writing, either. Just scaffold how you want your audience to respond to your work by bringing them through the same brain journey you took to get there...

Anyway, ranting. Feeling chatty tonight.

Modifié par Krimzie, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:10 .

[paxxton]

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

And you could still finish the game?

It's a sandbox game. There is no "finish." There's a main quest, but there's no "it's over".

Yeah, but wasn't there some kind of main plot or something? What was the goal? And if there was one could it have been achieved after killing a main NPC?

That's the entire point: you can kill people that are essential to the main quest.  How could they be essential if you could still do it without them?  Though alchemy was so hilariously broken that you could survive holding Keening and Sunder (which are scripted to kill you if you equip them without Wraithguard from the main quest) and do it anyway if you knew exactly what you're supposed to do.  I don't think that part was intended though.

Ok, but there should always be an alternative path to follow. Otherwise, the main game becomes somewhat nonsensical.

[Andromidius]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Maffers wrote...

 Here's an interesting article: http://www.eurogamer...int-of-the-game

“This all comes from my sense that players shouldn't be talked down to. For me, there's a kind of caustic relationship that's developed between players and developers. It's really a bad, abusive relationship, because developers say 'Players won't get it anyway, so we're just gonna do something that holds their hand,'" Yohalem explained. "It doesn't respect them, and then players say 'I hate this,' or 'I hate that,' or 'This game sucks,' and that hurts developers. So it's like a cycle. It also feels like critics aren't looking for meaning in the game, either. So it's like all sides have just stopped listening to each other.”

Interesting. Could ME3 be one of the few examples of non-handholding?

Blatantly, yes.  Farcry 3 is much more obvious that its a fantasy where nothing is what it seems.  The fact most critics (even people who call themselves 'fans of video games' are complaining about the obvious stuff - the fact a completely untrained boy can handle and use a wide variety of firearms like a professional soldier and can kill trained killers with no trouble at all.  Well no ****, what do most young men fantasize about from time to time?  Being a badass warrior.

[Arashi08]

This is off topic but...does anyone here use Audacity? I can't figure out how to use certain voice effects like flanging.

[Rifneno]

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

And you could still finish the game?

It's a sandbox game. There is no "finish." There's a main quest, but there's no "it's over".

Yeah, but wasn't there some kind of main plot or something? What was the goal? And if there was one could it have been achieved after killing a main NPC?

That's the entire point: you can kill people that are essential to the main quest.  How could they be essential if you could still do it without them?  Though alchemy was so hilariously broken that you could survive holding Keening and Sunder (which are scripted to kill you if you equip them without Wraithguard from the main quest) and do it anyway if you knew exactly what you're supposed to do.  I don't think that part was intended though.

Ok, but there should always be an alternative path to follow. Otherwise, the main game becomes somewhat nonsensical.

Hand holding sucks.

[401 Kill]

Krimzie wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I agree wholely. Also, just because you're a writer, "a whole 'nother thing" is not gramatically correct, since 'nother is an abbreviation for another. "A whole another thing." Not trying to nag.

Hee! What a nag. Of course I know grammar, sir! I'm a 4.0 English major! I just use slang online to craft a pleasant and approachable persona. /bruisedego
Also, "whole 'nother thing" is abused in Philly slang and I apologize. :innocent:

Philly slang is... I'm not accustomed to it. Apparently they don't even do the wave at Phillies games. I was surprised.:happy:

[lex0r11]

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

And you could still finish the game?

It's a sandbox game. There is no "finish." There's a main quest, but there's no "it's over".

Yeah, but wasn't there some kind of main plot or something? What was the goal? And if there was one could it have been achieved after killing a main NPC?

That's the entire point: you can kill people that are essential to the main quest.  How could they be essential if you could still do it without them?  Though alchemy was so hilariously broken that you could survive holding Keening and Sunder (which are scripted to kill you if you equip them without Wraithguard from the main quest) and do it anyway if you knew exactly what you're supposed to do.  I don't think that part was intended though.

Ok, but there should always be an alternative path to follow. Otherwise, the main game becomes somewhat nonsensical.

Did you ever play Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim? I think it's impossible to explain the essence of these games to someone who never played any of them. Just my opinion.

Maybe you mean sidestories? Climbing the career ladder in of the the three houses maybe.

Modifié par lex0r11, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:19 .

[401 Kill]

Rifneno wrote...


Hand holding sucks.

Just ask the "Breadcrumb" trail in Fable 3...

[BansheeOwnage]

Krimzie wrote...

@Banshee Heh, don't feel bad at all! I was only touchy because you're right and I'm defensive. I'll be honest... my grammar gets pretty crappy from time to time. It's why three-quarters of my writing time is spent editing.


But anyway, thinking about that article... this is just general ranting, not Far Cry 3 related (again, didn't play it). I actually believe that if you are trying to bend a genre, or change expectations of a medium, you can't tell people they're wrong when they don't get it, nor can you try to tell people what you're attempting to do with your work rather than SHOWING them THROUGH the work. Things that play with expectations should be able to stand on their own, you know? In the world of social media and internet journalism, writers and creators get to be like, "no, no, no, THIS is what I meant" and that's just silly. If it didn't come across for a large majority, you did it wrong. Maybe in execution. Maybe you marketed it to the wrong crowd. Who knows?

Additionally, audiences will usually rise to the occasion when presented with challenging concepts -- given the concepts are delivered effectively. Matrix or Inception might be "action-y" but they showcase heady ideas that now seem second-nature to even the most general of audiences because of good execution. I don't think it's some black magic of writing, either. Just scaffold how you want your audience to respond to your work by bringing them through the same brain journey you took to get there...

Anyway, ranting. Feeling chatty tonight.

I think most ITers would agree that if IT was intended, it could have been executed better. I blame EA for that (lack of development time). I also think (mostly due to EA) that they did target the wrong audience as well.

[paxxton]

lex0r11 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

And you could still finish the game?

It's a sandbox game. There is no "finish." There's a main quest, but there's no "it's over".

Yeah, but wasn't there some kind of main plot or something? What was the goal? And if there was one could it have been achieved after killing a main NPC?

That's the entire point: you can kill people that are essential to the main quest.  How could they be essential if you could still do it without them?  Though alchemy was so hilariously broken that you could survive holding Keening and Sunder (which are scripted to kill you if you equip them without Wraithguard from the main quest) and do it anyway if you knew exactly what you're supposed to do.  I don't think that part was intended though.

Ok, but there should always be an alternative path to follow. Otherwise, the main game becomes somewhat nonsensical.

Did you ever play Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim? I think it's impossible to explain the essence of these games to someone who never played any of them. Just my opinion.

Maybe you mean sidestories? Climbing the career ladder in of the the three houses maybe.

I haven't played them but I watched a few short clips on youtube. I played Fallout 3 and New Vegas though.

[BansheeOwnage]

Arashi08 wrote...

This is off topic but...does anyone here use Audacity? I can't figure out how to use certain voice effects like flanging.

Hey Arashi. I have Audacity, but I haven't played around with too much stuff other than pitch shifting and tempo. :/

Edit: Everyone should try and cut the pyramids.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:25 .

[paxxton]

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You know what was a great game for not holding hands? Morrowind. You could kill anyone you wanted. Anyone. You want to murder someone that's essential to the main quest? That's fine. The game just pops up a message saying "nice job, ****, you just broke destiny" and you could keep playing in the now non-canon world if you wanted. So disappointed when they introduced essential flag to NPCs in Oblivion.

And you could still finish the game?

It's a sandbox game. There is no "finish." There's a main quest, but there's no "it's over".

Yeah, but wasn't there some kind of main plot or something? What was the goal? And if there was one could it have been achieved after killing a main NPC?

That's the entire point: you can kill people that are essential to the main quest.  How could they be essential if you could still do it without them?  Though alchemy was so hilariously broken that you could survive holding Keening and Sunder (which are scripted to kill you if you equip them without Wraithguard from the main quest) and do it anyway if you knew exactly what you're supposed to do.  I don't think that part was intended though.

Ok, but there should always be an alternative path to follow. Otherwise, the main game becomes somewhat nonsensical.

Hand holding sucks.

That's not exactly hand-holding. By hand-holding I'd rather mean a simple straightforward and dumb story (linear gameplay).

Modifié par paxxton, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:25 .

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

Hand holding sucks.

That's one thing that bothered me with ME3 - the constant hand holding, and vaguely at that.

The game would have greatly benefitted from a less linier story progression.  Choosing which allies to help first, and it altering slightly depending on priorities (i.e. if you help the Quarians first then the Krogan are slightly less receptive), and maybe even having the option of not seeking help from certain species.  Heck, I'd have loved a time limit that made it nearly impossible to get everyone in one playthrough, and even have a few 'dead end' missions where you fail to get support or maybe even lose some.

[Big_Boss9]

Krimzie wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I agree wholely. Also, just because you're a writer, "a whole 'nother thing" is not gramatically correct, since 'nother is an abbreviation for another. "A whole another thing." Not trying to nag.

Hee! What a nag. Of course I know grammar, sir! I'm a 4.0 English major! I just use slang online to craft a pleasant and approachable persona. /bruisedego
Also, "whole 'nother thing" is abused in Philly slang and I apologize. :innocent:

Two Philly natives in the same thread? Wow

Even more OT: Time to test out today's new MP kits.

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[Fur28]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Hand holding sucks.

That's one thing that bothered me with ME3 - the constant hand holding, and vaguely at that.

The game would have greatly benefitted from a less linier story progression.  Choosing which allies to help first, and it altering slightly depending on priorities (i.e. if you help the Quarians first then the Krogan are slightly less receptive), and maybe even having the option of not seeking help from certain species.  Heck, I'd have loved a time limit that made it nearly impossible to get everyone in one playthrough, and even have a few 'dead end' missions where you fail to get support or maybe even lose some.

Just like in ME1&2, where you could choose the order of missions.... ahhhhhhhh good times, good olde times^_^

[Krimzie]

Big_Boss9 wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I agree wholely. Also, just because you're a writer, "a whole 'nother thing" is not gramatically correct, since 'nother is an abbreviation for another. "A whole another thing." Not trying to nag.

Hee! What a nag. Of course I know grammar, sir! I'm a 4.0 English major! I just use slang online to craft a pleasant and approachable persona. /bruisedego
Also, "whole 'nother thing" is abused in Philly slang and I apologize. :innocent:

Two Philly natives in the same thread? Wow

Ayooooooooo! No wonder this thread's so hard! 

[401 Kill]

Big_Boss9 wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I agree wholely. Also, just because you're a writer, "a whole 'nother thing" is not gramatically correct, since 'nother is an abbreviation for another. "A whole another thing." Not trying to nag.

Hee! What a nag. Of course I know grammar, sir! I'm a 4.0 English major! I just use slang online to craft a pleasant and approachable persona. /bruisedego
Also, "whole 'nother thing" is abused in Philly slang and I apologize. :innocent:

Two Philly natives in the same thread? Wow

Three if you count Philly being the closest city to where I live...

[Andromidius]

Fur28 wrote...

Just like in ME1&2, where you could choose the order of missions.... ahhhhhhhh good times, good olde times^_^

Yep, to some degree.  You can certainly 'fail' some missions in ME2 as well - getting Tali exiled, killing Zaeed, recruiting Morinth...

And heck, you could screw up ME3 in ME2 with a single choice - whether or not to save the Genophage cure data!

Modifié par Andromidius, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:30 .

[Big_Boss9]

401 Kill wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I agree wholely. Also, just because you're a writer, "a whole 'nother thing" is not gramatically correct, since 'nother is an abbreviation for another. "A whole another thing." Not trying to nag.

Hee! What a nag. Of course I know grammar, sir! I'm a 4.0 English major! I just use slang online to craft a pleasant and approachable persona. /bruisedego
Also, "whole 'nother thing" is abused in Philly slang and I apologize. :innocent:

Two Philly natives in the same thread? Wow

Three if you count Philly being the closest city to where I live...

Very cool!

[401 Kill]

Fur28 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Hand holding sucks.

That's one thing that bothered me with ME3 - the constant hand holding, and vaguely at that.

The game would have greatly benefitted from a less linier story progression.  Choosing which allies to help first, and it altering slightly depending on priorities (i.e. if you help the Quarians first then the Krogan are slightly less receptive), and maybe even having the option of not seeking help from certain species.  Heck, I'd have loved a time limit that made it nearly impossible to get everyone in one playthrough, and even have a few 'dead end' missions where you fail to get support or maybe even lose some.

Just like in ME1&2, where you could choose the order of missions.... ahhhhhhhh good times, good olde times^_^

The galaxy map actually had a greater purpose!