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[The Heretic of Time]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I dismissed the assertion that the background noise in Shepard's dreams is the same as the noise during the TIM standoff. That is simply not true. I don't know about the FOB. I'd have to listen to it again.

Now you have the attention of those who are your superior. Prepare. 

Wha? What the hell are you talking about? 

I've got an innocent question for you. Is it true that a player who controls a character in a game is also controlling the vehicle the character is controlling? True or False?

Is this a question about game-design or a philosophical question or what?


When it comes to game-design, I can tell you that when you enter a vehicle with your character in a video-game, you directly control the vehicle as a player. The programming for the character's controls are temporarily shut off and a new control-scheme (the control-scheme of the vehicle) is temporaily turned on. The character in the vehicle, if you even see him, is just animated to make him look as if he's driving.

Once you press the button that makes you exit the vehicle, the vehicle's controls are turned off again and the controls for your character are turned back on.

[masster blaster]

Don't forget Saren TJ. Soveregin controld Saren, and told Shepard there can be a place for Shepard.

[Home run MF]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Home run MF wrote...
snip*

Was it THAT obvious? Oh well. 

The second post gave it away, but well played 

[masster blaster]

Hnar we was talking about TIM.

[Genetic Destiny]

masster blaster wrote...

Hey Genetic Destiny long time no seen.

I've been lurking on this thread for a bit.

TJBartlemus wrote...

I was waiting until Hanar answered before I explained myself. Seeing as he won't, I will anyway. Yes you are correct. The Reapers are controlling TIM. TIM in turn at one point is controlling Shepard. So at one point in the end it is definite, literalist or not, that the Reapers control Shepard. 

I agree with this.

[The Heretic of Time]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

Is this a reference to TIM?

I was waiting until Hanar answered before I explained myself. Seeing as he won't, I will anyway. Yes you are correct. The Reapers are controlling TIM. TIM in turn at one point is controlling Shepard. So at one point in the end it is definite, literalist or not, that the Reapers control Shepard. 

Except the Reapers didn't really control TIM, they merely indoctrinated him. An indoctrinated individual still has free will, it's just that your will is now to serve the reapers, knowingly or unknowingly, that is your will now.


Indoctrination works through suggestions and the subconsiousness, not through direct commands.

[smokingotter1]

FifthBeatle wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

cdtrk65 wrote...

Wiki about A brave new world...

http://en.wikipedia....Brave_New_World

I know I cite a lot of literature... but I have not read everything... from the ahem* here is a quote from a cliff notes essay on the ending to Brave New World:

"Huxley (author) emphasizes the necessity of resisting the power of tyranny by
keeping one's mind active and free. The individual freedoms may be
limited in the modern world, Huxley admits, but they must be exercised
constantly or be lost."
(emphasis mine). Big clue here guys.

Otter - I really like all of your literature based clues to IT. I think examining themes like these might eventually be the best evidence we have. Have you written them all up somewhere or do I have to cmb through 4500+ pages to find them all?

I've been going through the last 4000 pages of IT forum looking for useful tidbits, but also bookmarking some of my best posts, I'll share them with you when I'm done

Some of the posts I've written about (Arian and Simon_says also have alot of useful stuff to add about literature)

Recommended readings:

• Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes
• Dante's Divine Comedy
• The play "the Crucible" the important part is the end message and John's trial
• Brave New World (did not read this one)
• Watch the Matrix
• Read up on Sigmued Freud's ID/EGO/Superego
• And for my personal take on IT: Overlay-Time hypothesis the movies Inception and Momento (both works by Christopher Nolan of the Dark Knight Trilogy) will help

I did my bookmarking on my other computer so I'll have to bookmark this so I can send you the links that I bookmarked.

Bookmarkception.

[The Heretic of Time]

masster blaster wrote...

Hnar we was talking about TIM.

Yeah I figured as much.

[masster blaster]

Well it's good to have you back Genetic Destiny.

[TJBartlemus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

Is this a reference to TIM?

I was waiting until Hanar answered before I explained myself. Seeing as he won't, I will anyway. Yes you are correct. The Reapers are controlling TIM. TIM in turn at one point is controlling Shepard. So at one point in the end it is definite, literalist or not, that the Reapers control Shepard. 

Except the Reapers didn't really control TIM, they merely indoctrinated him. An indoctrinated individual still has free will, it's just that your will is now to serve the reapers, knowingly or unknowingly, that is your will now.


Indoctrination works through suggestions and the subconsiousness, not through direct commands.

This is true. As long as you don't have Reaper tech inside of you. (How else do they control husks?) Which TIM does have. (As evident of his face...) So the Reapers do control TIM, as they did with Saren. Had he not had Reaper tech inside of him it might of been a different story...

PS. It is also Reaper tech that TIM used that controls Shepard too. 

EDIT - The Catalyst, leader of the Reapers, also even went out to say that they controlled TIM. So they did indeed control him. No doubt.

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 08 août 2012 - 02:53 .

[byne]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


Except the Reapers didn't really control TIM, they merely indoctrinated him. An indoctrinated individual still has free will, it's just that your will is now to serve the reapers, knowingly or unknowingly, that is your will now.


Indoctrination works through suggestions and the subconsiousness, not through direct commands.

'He could never control us, because we already controlled him.' - Godchild

So godchild is a liar, as confirmed by Heretic_Hanar.

[Home run MF]

TJBartlemus wrote...


This is true. As long as you don't have Reaper tech inside of you. (How else do they control husks?) Which TIM does have. (As evident of his face...) So the Reapers do control TIM, as they did with Saren. Had he not had Reaper tech inside of him it might of been a different story...

PS. It is also Reaper tech that TIM used that controls Shepard too. 

EDIT - The Catalyst, leader of the Reapers, also even went out to say that they controlled TIM. So they did indeed control him. No doubt.

"Yes, but he could never have taken control... because we already controlled him." 

Edit: dammit byne can you get out of my head?

Modifié par Home run MF, 08 août 2012 - 03:20 .

[FifthBeatle]

smokingotter1 wrote...

FifthBeatle wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

cdtrk65 wrote...

Wiki about A brave new world...

http://en.wikipedia....Brave_New_World

I know I cite a lot of literature... but I have not read everything... from the ahem* here is a quote from a cliff notes essay on the ending to Brave New World:

"Huxley (author) emphasizes the necessity of resisting the power of tyranny by
keeping one's mind active and free. The individual freedoms may be
limited in the modern world, Huxley admits, but they must be exercised
constantly or be lost."
(emphasis mine). Big clue here guys.

Otter - I really like all of your literature based clues to IT. I think examining themes like these might eventually be the best evidence we have. Have you written them all up somewhere or do I have to cmb through 4500+ pages to find them all?

I've been going through the last 4000 pages of IT forum looking for useful tidbits, but also bookmarking some of my best posts, I'll share them with you when I'm done

Some of the posts I've written about (Arian and Simon_says also have alot of useful stuff to add about literature)

Recommended readings:

• Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes
• Dante's Divine Comedy
• The play "the Crucible" the important part is the end message and John's trial
• Brave New World (did not read this one)
• Watch the Matrix
• Read up on Sigmued Freud's ID/EGO/Superego
• And for my personal take on IT: Overlay-Time hypothesis the movies Inception and Momento (both works by Christopher Nolan of the Dark Knight Trilogy) will help

I did my bookmarking on my other computer so I'll have to bookmark this so I can send you the links that I bookmarked.

Bookmarkception.

Awesome. Thank you. I haven't read most of these since highschool (which was longer ago than I'd like to admit), but from what I remember they all seem to fit in perfectly with the overal themes of the Mass Effect universe and the ending specifically.  

[The Heretic of Time]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

Is this a reference to TIM?

I was waiting until Hanar answered before I explained myself. Seeing as he won't, I will anyway. Yes you are correct. The Reapers are controlling TIM. TIM in turn at one point is controlling Shepard. So at one point in the end it is definite, literalist or not, that the Reapers control Shepard. 

Except the Reapers didn't really control TIM, they merely indoctrinated him. An indoctrinated individual still has free will, it's just that your will is now to serve the reapers, knowingly or unknowingly, that is your will now.


Indoctrination works through suggestions and the subconsiousness, not through direct commands.

This is true. As long as you don't have Reaper tech inside of you. (How else do they control husks?) Which TIM does have. (As evident of his face...) So the Reapers do control TIM, as they did with Saren. Had he not had Reaper tech inside of him it might of been a different story...

Not true.

Paul Grayson also had reaper tech in his body and he was not a puppet of the reapers, not literally. He still had his own free will, it's just that the indoctrination altered his believes and made him want to serve the reapers.

Same with Saren.

Same with TIM.


If Saren and TIM weren't in control of their own bodies, they wouldn't have been able to shoot themselves after their conversation with Shepard. This proofs that they are not under direct control of the reapers.

EDIT - The Catalyst, leader of the Reapers, also even went out to say that they controlled TIM. So they did indeed control him. No doubt.

Being in control of something does not mean you literally control it as a puppet or an extention of yourself. You can also control someone through brainwashing and telling him what to do. The brainwashed individual is still in control of his own body, he simply feels the desire to obey his master.

[The Heretic of Time]

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


Except the Reapers didn't really control TIM, they merely indoctrinated him. An indoctrinated individual still has free will, it's just that your will is now to serve the reapers, knowingly or unknowingly, that is your will now.


Indoctrination works through suggestions and the subconsiousness, not through direct commands.

'He could never control us, because we already controlled him.' - Godchild

So godchild is a liar, as confirmed by Heretic_Hanar.

Godchild is a plothole-ridden disasted that should have never ever been added to the Mass Effect universe, that's what he is. 

"Goddamn abomination" - Admiral Anderson 

[byne]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


Except the Reapers didn't really control TIM, they merely indoctrinated him. An indoctrinated individual still has free will, it's just that your will is now to serve the reapers, knowingly or unknowingly, that is your will now.


Indoctrination works through suggestions and the subconsiousness, not through direct commands.

'He could never control us, because we already controlled him.' - Godchild

So godchild is a liar, as confirmed by Heretic_Hanar.

Godchild is a plothole-ridden disasted that should have never ever been added to the Mass Effect universe, that's what he is. 

"Goddamn abomination" - Admiral Anderson 

Well, at least we agree on that.

Edit: I said at least twice. I must be tired.

Modifié par byne, 08 août 2012 - 03:16 .

[masster blaster]

But Hanar so is Shepard. Has Shepard not been in our Control since ME1. And Bioware said that they felt that if the player lost Control over Shepard it would not be fair to the players, so they are the Reapers in the end because the choice that Shepard makes determins on weather or not Shepard get's Indoctrinated, or not.

Also do remember that Shepard's eyes change into Saren's/ TIM's eyes if you/Shepard pick Synthesis, and Control.

[smokingotter1]

FifthBeatle wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

FifthBeatle wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

cdtrk65 wrote...

Wiki about A brave new world...

http://en.wikipedia....Brave_New_World

I know I cite a lot of literature... but I have not read everything... from the ahem* here is a quote from a cliff notes essay on the ending to Brave New World:

"Huxley (author) emphasizes the necessity of resisting the power of tyranny by
keeping one's mind active and free. The individual freedoms may be
limited in the modern world, Huxley admits, but they must be exercised
constantly or be lost."
(emphasis mine). Big clue here guys.

Otter - I really like all of your literature based clues to IT. I think examining themes like these might eventually be the best evidence we have. Have you written them all up somewhere or do I have to cmb through 4500+ pages to find them all?

I've been going through the last 4000 pages of IT forum looking for useful tidbits, but also bookmarking some of my best posts, I'll share them with you when I'm done

Some of the posts I've written about (Arian and Simon_says also have alot of useful stuff to add about literature)

Recommended readings:

• Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes (author argues for a social contract for rule under an absolute soverign, reapers believe in bringing order to chaos through their control)
• Dante's Divine Comedy (end of ME3 is an inverse to the divine comedy where main character Dante is lost in the woods, goes through three levels: hell, purgatory, and heaven, or post harbinger hit conduit run, citadel, and decision chamber. Dante finally accepts god into his life. Decision chamber is same, does Shepard accept the reapers as god?)
• The play "the Crucible" the important part is the end message and John's trial. (John in the crucible is under trial, circumstances does not matter, what matters is John is given a choice to live but sacrifice his integrity or die. He choose death. My overlay hypothesis is that the decision chamber is a subconcious test of Shepard's will to succumb to indoctrination, if he fails indoctrination and chooses destroy he is tricked into walking to his death via Harbinger's laser... unless you have a high EMS you live)
• Brave New World (did not read this one)
• Watch the Matrix (everyone has seen the Matrix)
• Read up on Sigmued Freud's ID/EGO/Superego (citadel, TIM: ID, lust for control. Shepard: Ego, Anderson: Superego, father figure.)
• And for my personal take on IT: Overlay-Time hypothesis the movies Inception and Momento (both works by Christopher Nolan of the Dark Knight Trilogy) will help

Overlay-time hypthesis (OTH) in a nutshell is the argument that the ending to ME3 is already shown but details are missing like in the movie Momento which does not end in chronological order. OTH argues that Shepard's breathe scenes is not in chronological order to what is happening in space.)


I did my bookmarking on my other computer so I'll have to bookmark this so I can send you the links that I bookmarked.

Bookmarkception.

Awesome. Thank you. I haven't read most of these since highschool (which was longer ago than I'd like to admit), but from what I remember they all seem to fit in perfectly with the overal themes of the Mass Effect universe and the ending specifically.  

I can give you the tl:dr. I should be going to bed, but theres a noisy cricket that's keeping me up. Edited my quoted text above.

Modifié par smokingotter1, 08 août 2012 - 03:13 .

[masster blaster]

And Hanar I am implying that we are the Reapers at the end, and yes we are Shepard, so if you don't get what I was saying here you go.

[masster blaster]

Then stay up Otter.

[TJBartlemus]

@ Hanar - Not true. Most of the book Paul had no control over his body. How is that not literally being a puppet? Nanides literally changed his body so the reapers could transform it and control it. Same with TIM and Saren. Both also had Reaper implants. Sure Paul fought it but that was because he was aware of it. TIM and Saren weren't aware they were being controlled until the end in which they commited suicide.

TIM and Saren weren't in control of their bodies. They just weren't aware of it. When they do they commit suicide.

[smokingotter1]

masster blaster wrote...

Then stay up Otter.

I was going to run out with an axe doing my battlecry trying to kill the beast...but roommates might not take kindly to that. I'll probably fall asleep typing at my desk about IT tonight.

[TJBartlemus]

And thus I join the double post club.... 

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 08 août 2012 - 03:19 .

[Home run MF]

Masster have you tried the new weapons?

[masster blaster]

That would be funny if you did Otter, and don't forget total recall for your bookmarking.