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[zigamortis]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

The themes present within the trilogy make their intentions quite clear. But they also want speculation. For there to be speculation there must be at least two popular interpretations.

But what about the players who didn't play or finish the previous games OR didn't pay enough attention? For them there are less reasons to root for the IT than a literal interpretation.

I don't think speculations was one of the main motivations to include a literal interpretation. It was so that everyone had something to enjoy.
Besides, I find that it comes naturally. Is there even a possibility to have the ending without a literal interpretation (and NOT have a Gainax ending)?

Thats their own damn fault. Who the hell starts with part 3 of a trilogy and expects to understand much anything about it? The designers don't have to deviate from their original intentions to cater to players who don't make the effort to understand the story. 

The retarded kind of people.....

[Dwailing]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

And like I said before.  There's people who think "what if" scenarios are a good reason for genocide.  They're called "templars."

That is a very good point. But it's not so much about making a decision based on mistrust, as it is about trying to find out if there could be any validity in what I'm claiming.

I'm just trying to find out if -with what we do know- we can make an informed decision on this.

If you ask me, I don't think there's any way to know for certain whether or not you're right.  Not until ME4/IT DLC.  Until that time, I don't think there's any justification for letting the geth die.  Remember one of the key points of indoctrination, "Betraying friends."  That's what letting the geth die is.  You have to betray Legion, a friend.

[Rifneno]

Dwailing wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

And like I said before.  There's people who think "what if" scenarios are a good reason for genocide.  They're called "templars."

That is a very good point. But it's not so much about making a decision based on mistrust, as it is about trying to find out if there could be any validity in what I'm claiming.

I'm just trying to find out if -with what we do know- we can make an informed decision on this.

If you ask me, I don't think there's any way to know for certain whether or not you're right.  Not until ME4/IT DLC.  Until that time, I don't think there's any justification for letting the geth die.  Remember one of the key points of indoctrination, "Betraying friends."  That's what letting the geth die is.  You have to betray Legion, a friend.

QFT.  QFT so hard.

[MaximizedAction]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...
But what about the players who didn't play or finish the previous games OR didn't pay enough attention? For them there are less reasons to root for the IT than a literal interpretation.

Thats their own damn fault. Who the hell starts with part 3 of a trilogy and expects to understand much anything about it? The designers don't have to deviate from their original intentions to cater to players who don't make the effort to understand the story.

But then the marketing kind of sucks because it never gave me the feeling that it was the game wrapping up a trilogy that is worth playing but only as this one game that is titled with a '3'. And it also was more marketed as a 3rd person scifi shooter than a story driven game.
Why is that important? Because not every game with an integer number in the title relies on the previous game to be understood. Take the GTA games for example. While they are surely entertaining, you don't need to play GTA 2 to understand GTA 4's story.

So yes, marketing has to make sure of that by mentioning the importance of the trilogy, too. But fortunately, ME3 did offer a "story experience" for newcomers. Just the resolution thereof might've confused a couple of people.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 22 décembre 2012 - 05:51 .

[spotlessvoid]

There is two and 3/4 games that say literal isn't legitimate. That, or Bioware ****ed up the ending in every conceivable way.

[Eryri]

Rifneno wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Unrelated, but I've just realised why I find the Leviathans vaguely disgusting - they look like a giant version of the Facehuggers from the Alien movies.

I disagree. They aren't "vaguely" disgusting.

 I meant they're only vaguely disgusting in terms of their physical appearance, which they can't help, to be fair to them.

However in terms of their morality and ethics, they may as well have been fished from the toilet bowl of Satan himself.

Modifié par Eryri, 22 décembre 2012 - 06:05 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Dwailing wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

And like I said before.  There's people who think "what if" scenarios are a good reason for genocide.  They're called "templars."

That is a very good point. But it's not so much about making a decision based on mistrust, as it is about trying to find out if there could be any validity in what I'm claiming.

I'm just trying to find out if -with what we do know- we can make an informed decision on this.

If you ask me, I don't think there's any way to know for certain whether or not you're right.  Not until ME4/IT DLC.  Until that time, I don't think there's any justification for letting the geth die.  Remember one of the key points of indoctrination, "Betraying friends."  That's what letting the geth die is.  You have to betray Legion, a friend.

You don't think there's any justification for letting the Geth die?

You mean, other than that they want to use Reaper code to upgrade themselves?
Other than that Legion suddenly no longer has any problems accepting the Reapers' gifts?
Other than that the Geth willingly aligned themselves with the Reapers?
Other than that Legion is of the opinion that submission is preferable to extinction? (That alone clearly shows Reaper influence, IMO)
Other than that there are eerie similarities between the Zha'til and the Geth/Quarian situation?
Other than that Legion lied to you about the Reaper code?

As far as betrayal goes, if you don't allow him to use the code, he attacks you. I think this is not a case of betraying Legion, it's a case of having to put someone down because he's been indoctrinated, as painful and heartbreaking as that may be.

I think that's the whole point with decisions in Mass Effect: we never know what the results of our choices are, until we play the next game. I want to be able to make an informed decision now, not with the knowledge of what happens in a possible sequel. It's just like controllers and synthesizers saying there can't be any negative consequences, because we're not shown any.

Also, note that when you're doing the Rannoch missions, and you have all these conversations with the crew about the Geth (Vega distrusting Legion, Javik warning about the Zha'til, etcetera), your conversation with Garrus is about the ruthless calculus of war:

Garrus: I'm starting to understand why the galaxy needs coldhearted dictators every now and then.
Shepard: They get things done?
Garrus: They don't give a damn about the consequences. Suppose that's what it's going to take, Shepard: the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die, so twenty billion over there can live. Are we up for that? Are you?
Shepard: If all life in the galaxy vanishes because we hesitate, what choice do we have?
Garrus: *sigh* This is going to be a rough war.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 décembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[byne]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

As far as betrayal goes, if you don't allow him to use the code, he attacks you. I think this is not a case of betraying Legion, it's a case of having to put someone down because he's been indoctrinated, as painful and heartbreaking as that may be.

He attacks you because, by not allowing him to upload the code, you're dooming his entire people. You cant use that as evidence. It'd be like saying that Wrex attacking you after you sabotage the genophage is proof of his indoctrination. They're acting out of loyalty to their people, not loyalty to the Reapers.

[spotlessvoid]

The geth are awesome. I consistently sided with Legion. That said, I'd kill each one of them by hand if it meant ridding the galaxy of the Reapers

[MegumiAzusa]

Eryri wrote...

Also the Citadel doesn't strike me as being designed to accommodate a race of gigantic, aquatic crayfish. There's a lot of small spaces and a distinct lack of water. I suppose the Reapers could have remodeled it later, but that's getting into over complicated headcanon territory. It's simpler storytelling to just assume the Reapers built it.

Leviathans used other races as sort of slaves, it's not a far stretch to believe it's a central hub made for them in the first place. No one said it was made for the Leviathans.
You basically say "believe our IT hadcanon, but we don't believe yours because it's too complicated", wut?

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 22 décembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

byne wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

As far as betrayal goes, if you don't allow him to use the code, he attacks you. I think this is not a case of betraying Legion, it's a case of having to put someone down because he's been indoctrinated, as painful and heartbreaking as that may be.

He attacks you because, by not allowing him to upload the code, you're dooming his entire people. You cant use that as evidence. It'd be like saying that Wrex attacking you after you sabotage the genophage is proof of his indoctrination. They're acting out of loyalty to their people, not loyalty to the Reapers.

I'm not using it as evidence for him being indoctrinated. I see your point though.

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

byne wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

As far as betrayal goes, if you don't allow him to use the code, he attacks you. I think this is not a case of betraying Legion, it's a case of having to put someone down because he's been indoctrinated, as painful and heartbreaking as that may be.

He attacks you because, by not allowing him to upload the code, you're dooming his entire people. You cant use that as evidence. It'd be like saying that Wrex attacking you after you sabotage the genophage is proof of his indoctrination. They're acting out of loyalty to their people, not loyalty to the Reapers.

I'm not using it as evidence for him being indoctrinated. I see your point though.

Soo betraying the Quarians who were our friends, at least some, isn't betraying friends?

[Rifneno]

spotlessvoid wrote...

The geth are awesome. I consistently sided with Legion. That said, I'd kill each one of them by hand if it meant ridding the galaxy of the Reapers

+1.

[byne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

byne wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

As far as betrayal goes, if you don't allow him to use the code, he attacks you. I think this is not a case of betraying Legion, it's a case of having to put someone down because he's been indoctrinated, as painful and heartbreaking as that may be.

He attacks you because, by not allowing him to upload the code, you're dooming his entire people. You cant use that as evidence. It'd be like saying that Wrex attacking you after you sabotage the genophage is proof of his indoctrination. They're acting out of loyalty to their people, not loyalty to the Reapers.

I'm not using it as evidence for him being indoctrinated. I see your point though.

Soo betraying the Quarians who were our friends, at least some, isn't betraying friends?

Who said we were betraying the quarians?

Even when they get wiped out, Shep warned them, and they chose to keep firing. As usual, the quarians have no one but themselves to blame.

[DoomsdayDevice]

spotlessvoid wrote...

The geth are awesome. I consistently sided with Legion. That said, I'd kill each one of them by hand if it meant ridding the galaxy of the Reapers

I always sided with Legion as well. But I've always had an extremely uneasy feeling about the whole Reaper code thing. It always feels wrong to me.

I love Legion just as much as everyone else, I just think the sad truth is that he's been compromised.

I mean, seriously: No one thinks it's strange he thinks ridding the Geth of free will is "evidently an acceptable trade"?

Hello? This is the IT thread, is it not? Aren't we always rushing to point out how all of our crewmembers would rather die than be brainwashed?

[byne]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

The geth are awesome. I consistently sided with Legion. That said, I'd kill each one of them by hand if it meant ridding the galaxy of the Reapers

I always sided with Legion as well. But I've always had an extremely uneasy feeling about the whole Reaper code thing. It always feels wrong to me.

I love Legion just as much as everyone else, I just think the sad truth is that he's been compromised.

I mean, seriously: No one thinks it's strange he thinks ridding the Geth of free will is "evidently an acceptable trade"?

Hello? This is the IT thread, is it not? Aren't we always rushing to point out how all of our crewmembers would rather die than be brainwashed?

Its pretty clear that when he says it was evidently an acceptable trade that he didnt approve.

[Rifneno]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

The geth are awesome. I consistently sided with Legion. That said, I'd kill each one of them by hand if it meant ridding the galaxy of the Reapers

I always sided with Legion as well. But I've always had an extremely uneasy feeling about the whole Reaper code thing. It always feels wrong to me.

I love Legion just as much as everyone else, I just think the sad truth is that he's been compromised.

I mean, seriously: No one thinks it's strange he thinks ridding the Geth of free will is "evidently an acceptable trade"?

Hello? This is the IT thread, is it not? Aren't we always rushing to point out how all of our crewmembers would rather die than be brainwashed?

You obviously missed the vaguely mournful tone of his usually deadpan voice when he said that.  Why would he say "evidentially" if he approved?  For that matter, why are there hardware shackles on him?  You know, when you find him and he specifically states that he would never agree to this?

Edit: Oh, and his obvious shame on the shuttle to the Reaper base?
Shepard: How'd we get here? The geth are better than this.
Legion: (hanging head) No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.
It's obvious that he's opposed to the rest of the geth's decision.

Modifié par Rifneno, 22 décembre 2012 - 06:48 .

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

byne wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

As far as betrayal goes, if you don't allow him to use the code, he attacks you. I think this is not a case of betraying Legion, it's a case of having to put someone down because he's been indoctrinated, as painful and heartbreaking as that may be.

He attacks you because, by not allowing him to upload the code, you're dooming his entire people. You cant use that as evidence. It'd be like saying that Wrex attacking you after you sabotage the genophage is proof of his indoctrination. They're acting out of loyalty to their people, not loyalty to the Reapers.

I'm not using it as evidence for him being indoctrinated. I see your point though.

Soo betraying the Quarians who were our friends, at least some, isn't betraying friends?

Who said we were betraying the quarians?

Even when they get wiped out, Shep warned them, and they chose to keep firing. As usual, the quarians have no one but themselves to blame.

And the Geth could just have left. Also as Legion states they left the Quarians escape because they could not know if destroying them would somehow have grave consequences, and they seem to have made their mind up about it. It also means if the same clarity for the Geth would have been there 300 years ago no Quarian would even be alive. Both sides are to blame here.

[MegumiAzusa]

Rifneno wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

The geth are awesome. I consistently sided with Legion. That said, I'd kill each one of them by hand if it meant ridding the galaxy of the Reapers

I always sided with Legion as well. But I've always had an extremely uneasy feeling about the whole Reaper code thing. It always feels wrong to me.

I love Legion just as much as everyone else, I just think the sad truth is that he's been compromised.

I mean, seriously: No one thinks it's strange he thinks ridding the Geth of free will is "evidently an acceptable trade"?

Hello? This is the IT thread, is it not? Aren't we always rushing to point out how all of our crewmembers would rather die than be brainwashed?

You obviously missed the vaguely mournful tone of his usually deadpan voice when he said that.  Why would he say "evidentially" if he approved?  For that matter, why are there hardware shackles on him?  You know, when you find him and he specifically states that he would never agree to this?

Edit: Oh, and his obvious shame on the shuttle to the Reaper base?
Shepard: How'd we get here? The geth are better than this.
Legion: (hanging head) No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.
It's obvious that he's opposed to the rest of the geth's decision.

Reapers have no problems when they are lying, why should the Geth/Legion? Also nothing tells you how many Geth in Legion are indeed pro or con this decision.

[DoomsdayDevice]

The point is, Geth operate on consensus. If individual Geth programs get compromised, they will start having an influence on decisions made in the consensus. If a significant part of the Geth have been rewritten by the Reapers, (like Javik suggests), they could cause the Geth as a whole to reach different conclusions and take different decisions.

Whether or not a number of the programs that make up Legion could have been compromised, isn't even relevant when the Geth as a whole have been.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 décembre 2012 - 07:01 .

[demersel]

By the way - Kenson is NOT a squadmate.

[Rifneno]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

The geth are awesome. I consistently sided with Legion. That said, I'd kill each one of them by hand if it meant ridding the galaxy of the Reapers

I always sided with Legion as well. But I've always had an extremely uneasy feeling about the whole Reaper code thing. It always feels wrong to me.

I love Legion just as much as everyone else, I just think the sad truth is that he's been compromised.

I mean, seriously: No one thinks it's strange he thinks ridding the Geth of free will is "evidently an acceptable trade"?

Hello? This is the IT thread, is it not? Aren't we always rushing to point out how all of our crewmembers would rather die than be brainwashed?

You obviously missed the vaguely mournful tone of his usually deadpan voice when he said that.  Why would he say "evidentially" if he approved?  For that matter, why are there hardware shackles on him?  You know, when you find him and he specifically states that he would never agree to this?

Edit: Oh, and his obvious shame on the shuttle to the Reaper base?
Shepard: How'd we get here? The geth are better than this.
Legion: (hanging head) No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.
It's obvious that he's opposed to the rest of the geth's decision.

Reapers have no problems when they are lying, why should the Geth/Legion? Also nothing tells you how many Geth in Legion are indeed pro or con this decision.

Goddamn.  You're still replying to me?  What's your malfunction?

[byne]

demersel wrote...

By the way - Kenson is NOT a squadmate.

...was that ever in dispute?

[TheConstantOne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

byne wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

As far as betrayal goes, if you don't allow him to use the code, he attacks you. I think this is not a case of betraying Legion, it's a case of having to put someone down because he's been indoctrinated, as painful and heartbreaking as that may be.

He attacks you because, by not allowing him to upload the code, you're dooming his entire people. You cant use that as evidence. It'd be like saying that Wrex attacking you after you sabotage the genophage is proof of his indoctrination. They're acting out of loyalty to their people, not loyalty to the Reapers.

I'm not using it as evidence for him being indoctrinated. I see your point though.

Soo betraying the Quarians who were our friends, at least some, isn't betraying friends?

Who said we were betraying the quarians?

Even when they get wiped out, Shep warned them, and they chose to keep firing. As usual, the quarians have no one but themselves to blame.

And the Geth could just have left. Also as Legion states they left the Quarians escape because they could not know if destroying them would somehow have grave consequences, and they seem to have made their mind up about it. It also means if the same clarity for the Geth would have been there 300 years ago no Quarian would even be alive. Both sides are to blame here.

Why should the geth leave? They came into consciousness, they have just as much of a right to be there as the quarians do.  The war continuing for as long as it has was a result of stupid behavior on both sides but the geth are definitely NOT at fault here.  Of course, my argument assumes a free willed AI should have the same rights as an organic.  If you disagree with that assumption, then there has to be a completely different debate here

Modifié par TheConstantOne, 22 décembre 2012 - 07:05 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Rifneno wrote...

Goddamn. You're still replying to me? What's your malfunction?

I'm just usually able to have a discussion without letting my personal feelings of the other person get the better of myself. And even if you ignore what I'm saying that's fine, then it's just for the others to see there isn't just one valid interpretation.