80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

[spotlessvoid]

I don't trust the Geth, but I trust Legion.

What if the Reaper code was just studied?
Would you refuse to learn about say the theory of relativity if it was learned from studying Reaper tech? I understand software code is different, but what I'm saying is it's possible things were learned from that Reaper code without modeling the new Geth code directly on specific Reaper code sequences.

[byne]

DD, you make good points, I just dont agree with your conclusion.

You can claim I'm ignoring your points, and by not addressing every single one, I guess I technically am, its just I dont feel like arguing about it anymore. You believe one thing, I believe another, and neither of us is going to convince the other one.

[BleedingUranium]

Addressing one point I found: siding with the Reapers does not always equal indoctrination, especially with synthetics. indoctrination is like a medical condition, and you can side with the Reapers without it, there's just almost never reason to do that.

[Eryri]

I was reading Ieldra2's cheerleading thread for control, when a thought occured to me. The control supporters were pointing out that the Shepalyst is based on Shepard's values and memories, and so if based on a paragon Shepard, it can be trusted to use it's absolute power responsibly and not decide to go on another reaping spree.

However, in the ME universe, it is impossible to make a perfect copy of a mind. We know this because Edi states that she can never be transfered to another Blue box, because to do so would create a new AI, that just happened to have her memories. 

However, literal control asks us to believe that Shepard's personality can be perfectly copied from his squishy human brain, into a completely different synthetic substrate.

Wouldn't this violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle? To accurately copy Shepard's mind, you would have to record the position and structure of each and every one of his billions of neurons, each with hundreds of neurotransmitter binding sites, ion channels etc. And all the neurotransmitter molecules floating round in his synapses. In short you'd have to record the position and momentum of every single atom in his brain. This is not just difficult, this is physically impossible. It violates the laws of quantum mechanics.

The Shepalyst can never be anything more than an imperfect copy of Shepard. As such it cannot be trusted to behave as even the most paragon of Shepards.

TLDR: I think Edi's speech about being bound to her Blue box, is actually forshadowing that Control can never be trusted.

[Rifneno]

Eryri wrote...

I was reading Ieldra2's cheerleading thread for control, when a thought occured to me. The control supporters were pointing out that the Shepalyst is based on Shepard's values and memories, and so if based on a paragon Shepard, it can be trusted to use it's absolute power responsibly and not decide to go on another reaping spree.

However, in the ME universe, it is impossible to make a perfect copy of a mind. We know this because Edi states that she can never be transfered to another Blue box, because to do so would create a new AI, that just happened to have her memories. 

However, literal control asks us to believe that Shepard's personality can be perfectly copied from his squishy human brain, into a completely different synthetic substrate.

Wouldn't this violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle? To accurately copy Shepard's mind, you would have to record the position and structure of each and every one of his billions of neurons, each with hundreds of neurotransmitter binding sites, ion channels etc. And all the neurotransmitter molecules floating round in his synapses. In short you'd have to record the position and momentum of every single atom in his brain. This is not just difficult, this is physically impossible. It violates the laws of quantum mechanics.

The Shepalyst can never be anything more than an imperfect copy of Shepard. As such it cannot be trusted to behave as even the most paragon of Shepards.

TLDR: I think Edi's speech about being bound to her Blue box, is actually forshadowing that Control can never be trusted.

Another interesting thing was that someone pointed out that in the control ending, you only see Reaper starships.  All other species are notable absent.

[BleedingUranium]

Eryri wrote...

*snip*

Good points, along with: "My personality matrix can predict what the real Commander Shepard would say with 7% accuracy."

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 22 décembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[Eryri]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eryri wrote...

*snip*

Good points, along with: "My personality matrix can predict what the real Commander Shepard would say with 7% accuracy."

Thanks. 

Even though the Shepard VI was probably intended for comic relief, did anyone else find it really disturbing?

I can't put my finger on why, but something about it absolutely made my skin crawl.

[GethPrimeMKII]

What the reapers gave the geth was simply the ability to fight effectively without having to network with other geth. They basically got an upgrade and a means of overcoming the quarians' latest weapon.

I understand where DD is coming from. Regardless the geth have proven they are well worth taking a chance on.

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 22 décembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[spotlessvoid]

I think actual Reaper code is exponentially more complex than the upgrades using concepts learned from studying the Reaper that Legion uploaded. Reaper code likely has a, lot of intentionally designed hidden functionality (something incomprehensible can be "hidden" too) and all Reaper code sequences aren't inherently corrupting. I think using information gleaned from that code, especially from more benign sequences, isn't going to necessarily put the Geth at risk for Reaper control. Considering the Reapers already know how to corrupt the current Geth systems, it's not really creating a risk that wasn't already manifestly present.

However, I do think endowing each Geth unit with individuality changes the Geth's perspective on the importance of self determination, which weakens the Reapers ability to subvert the Geth by altering the Geth's logical conclusion that survival is preferential to free will. The Reapers are also no longer to corrupt the Geth as a whole. Legion's actions are detrimental to the Reapers ability to control the Geth, so I think it's unlikely the Reapers support it.

[BleedingUranium]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

What the reapers gave the geth was simply the ability to fight effectively without having to network with other geth. They basically got an upgrade and a means of overcoming the quarians' latest weapon.

I understand where DD is coming from. Regardless the geth have proven they are well worth taking a chance on.

I also see where he's coming from, and there's supposed to be some stuff that makes you doubt Legion/the Geth, in the exact same way there's stuff that makes you doubt Wrex/the Krogan.

The Genophage arc and Geth arc are about two things: showing that that species has grown and shouldn't be looked down on anymore, and to show your trust in your close friend and leader of that race.

It's just like the Citadel coup, only reversed. We're the VS, and Wrex/Legion are Shepard; we have to trust them, even in the face of some doubt. It's about loyalty.

Edit: I only just realized this while writing it 

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 22 décembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[masster blaster]

So...about Control I've seen the ending, and I know for certin that nobodys Shepard ever said. Eternal, infinate. The man/woman used these words, but only now do I truly understand what they mean.

Honest the only time I have heared anyone said this was Sovergin.

[MegumiAzusa]

masster blaster wrote...

So...about Control I've seen the ending, and I know for certin that nobodys Shepard ever said. Eternal, infinate. The man/woman used these words, but only now do I truly understand what they mean.

Honest the only time I have heared anyone said this was Sovergin.

Using these words doesn't necessarily mean Shep has to use them on any other occasion. It simply means they are part of Shep's vocabulary, but still without true understanding.

[Rifneno]

masster blaster wrote...

So...about Control I've seen the ending, and I know for certin that nobodys Shepard ever said. Eternal, infinate. The man/woman used these words, but only now do I truly understand what they mean.

Honest the only time I have heared anyone said this was Sovergin.

The whole thing is a montage of Sovereign/Harbinger quotes coated liberally in sugar.  Then he has a nice self-righteous speech about "saving the many" like the Catalyst, all to a bunch of slides that are oddly missing any living thing that's not a Reaper.

I'm sure it'll all work out for the best.  No foreshadowing there!

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

So...about Control I've seen the ending, and I know for certin that nobodys Shepard ever said. Eternal, infinate. The man/woman used these words, but only now do I truly understand what they mean.

Honest the only time I have heared anyone said this was Sovergin.

Using these words doesn't necessarily mean Shep has to use them on any other occasion. It simply means they are part of Shep's vocabulary, but still without true understanding.

No.

[MegumiAzusa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

So...about Control I've seen the ending, and I know for certin that nobodys Shepard ever said. Eternal, infinate. The man/woman used these words, but only now do I truly understand what they mean.
Honest the only time I have heared anyone said this was Sovergin.

Using these words doesn't necessarily mean Shep has to use them on any other occasion. It simply means they are part of Shep's vocabulary, but still without true understanding.

No.

Which is based on?

[Rifneno]

Oh damn, and I forgot the whole "Become a Reaper" thing. It's mindblowing how people can kid themselves into thinking BadChoiceA: Become a Reaper will turn out okay.

[MegumiAzusa]

Rifneno wrote...

Oh damn, and I forgot the whole "Become a Reaper" thing. It's mindblowing how people can kid themselves into thinking BadChoiceA: Become a Reaper will turn out okay.

If you use that and follow logic you have to say green is the good ending as it's named "Harmony of Man and Machine".

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Oh damn, and I forgot the whole "Become a Reaper" thing. It's mindblowing how people can kid themselves into thinking BadChoiceA: Become a Reaper will turn out okay.

If you use that and follow logic you have to say green is the good ending as it's named "Harmony of Man and Machine".

[Rifneno]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Oh damn, and I forgot the whole "Become a Reaper" thing. It's mindblowing how people can kid themselves into thinking BadChoiceA: Become a Reaper will turn out okay.

If you use that and follow logic you have to say green is the good ending as it's named "Harmony of Man and Machine".

Again?  Again?

[masster blaster]

Ah remeber in ME1 Anderson thought that maybe the conduit was a weapon, yet it turned out to be a relay.So what if Crucible is thought to be some kind of weapon, but turns out to be a trap?

Or Brat is not the Catalyst, and Shepard is. I mean who at the end can make the Crucible fire Shepard.

Honest Citadle was found out to be a huge *** relay/ a trap. So what isn't a trap, and not Reaper made?

[MegumiAzusa]

Rifneno wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Oh damn, and I forgot the whole "Become a Reaper" thing. It's mindblowing how people can kid themselves into thinking BadChoiceA: Become a Reaper will turn out okay.

If you use that and follow logic you have to say green is the good ending as it's named "Harmony of Man and Machine".

Again?  Again?

You can't have one without the other. Simple as that, your personal feelings don't matter.

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Oh damn, and I forgot the whole "Become a Reaper" thing. It's mindblowing how people can kid themselves into thinking BadChoiceA: Become a Reaper will turn out okay.

If you use that and follow logic you have to say green is the good ending as it's named "Harmony of Man and Machine".

Again?  Again?

You can't have one without the other. Simple as that, your personal feelings don't matter.

Yes we can, and it makes perfect sense.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

masster blaster wrote...

So...about Control I've seen the ending, and I know for certin that nobodys Shepard ever said. Eternal, infinate. The man/woman used these words, but only now do I truly understand what they mean.

Honest the only time I have heared anyone said this was Sovergin.

Yeah, I dont even think the Geth or EDI ever referred to themselves as eternal despite beeing AI.

[CmdrShep80]

Eryri wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eryri wrote...

*snip*

Good points, along with: "My personality matrix can predict what the real Commander Shepard would say with 7% accuracy."

Thanks. 

Even though the Shepard VI was probably intended for comic relief, did anyone else find it really disturbing?

I can't put my finger on why, but something about it absolutely made my skin crawl.

maybe it's an AI  desguised as a VI?