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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#71651
BleedingUranium

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masster blaster wrote...

You know if you think literally... Brat says they control TIM. Now if that's the case, then doesn't that makes TIM's ideas the Reapers ideas.

Wanting to control the Reapers. The Reapers idea.
Wanting to save humanity. The Reapers idea.
Experimenting on all the galaxy's races. Reapers idea.

TIM's talk about how destroying the Reapers gains us nothing. The Reapers idea.
What TIM does in ME3 all the Reapers doing. Ya what the brat says is true right, so that means he is behind TIM's crimes.

Oh wait he is just following his prgraming. Ya it has chocie, just like soldiers have chocie to follow the order through, as did Victors monster.

Oh ya IT, or literal TIM is being controlled by the Reapers. If you don't see TIM is their puppet, then I don't know.


Indoctrination is Inception; implanting an idea in someone's head that they think is their own.

#71652
Rifneno

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masster blaster wrote...

You know if you think literally... Brat says they control TIM. Now if that's the case, then doesn't that makes TIM's ideas the Reapers ideas.

Wanting to control the Reapers. The Reapers idea.
Wanting to save humanity. The Reapers idea.
Experimenting on all the galaxy's races. Reapers idea.

TIM's talk about how destroying the Reapers gains us nothing. The Reapers idea.
What TIM does in ME3 all the Reapers doing. Ya what the brat says is true right, so that means he is behind TIM's crimes.

Oh wait he is just following his prgraming. Ya it has chocie, just like soldiers have chocie to follow the order through, as did Victors monster.

Oh ya IT, or literal TIM is being controlled by the Reapers. If you don't see TIM is their puppet, then I don't know.


And TIM "needs you to believe" that control is possible.

I'm sure control will work just fine and everyone will live happily ever after!

#71653
masster blaster

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Okay guys I have to go see ya.

#71654
Restrider

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Eryri wrote...

I was reading Ieldra2's cheerleading thread for control, when a thought occured to me. The control supporters were pointing out that the Shepalyst is based on Shepard's values and memories, and so if based on a paragon Shepard, it can be trusted to use it's absolute power responsibly and not decide to go on another reaping spree.

However, in the ME universe, it is impossible to make a perfect copy of a mind. We know this because Edi states that she can never be transfered to another Blue box, because to do so would create a new AI, that just happened to have her memories. 

However, literal control asks us to believe that Shepard's personality can be perfectly copied from his squishy human brain, into a completely different synthetic substrate.

Wouldn't this violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle? To accurately copy Shepard's mind, you would have to record the position and structure of each and every one of his billions of neurons, each with hundreds of neurotransmitter binding sites, ion channels etc. And all the neurotransmitter molecules floating round in his synapses. In short you'd have to record the position and momentum of every single atom in his brain. This is not just difficult, this is physically impossible. It violates the laws of quantum mechanics.

The Shepalyst can never be anything more than an imperfect copy of Shepard. As such it cannot be trusted to behave as even the most paragon of Shepards.

TLDR: I think Edi's speech about being bound to her Blue box, is actually forshadowing that Control can never be trusted.


Interesting.
I have a different take on it though.
Here is a thought experiment. If you would take your brain on three different occasions on the same day, you would still have a lot of changes on a molecular - let alone atomic level.
However I guess you would not be able to tell the difference between these three individuals, unless you asked them what time of the day it is. You would perceive them as the same person.
The big question here is, what is self-awareness and what makes you an individual?
Usually you'd say all your experiences stored in the neural network, the way your brain recieves input, the features of your brain chemistry etc.

The point I am trying to say is the following:
If your individuality/self-awareness/soul/conscience/personality - or however you want to call it - is determined by the subatomic position of all the particles your brain is comprised of, why is there always some sort of core-identity that prevails throughout your life (ignoring heavy traumata/turning-points that change a personality)?
And don't tell me that the matter your brain consists of is in a fixed state...

I do not really have an answer and I would really like more information on that topic (I guess some others are more adept on this kind of topic than I am).
I am not trying to defend Synthesis or Control here, I am just genuinely interested on this topic.

#71655
Rifneno

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Restrider wrote...

The point I am trying to say is the following:
If your individuality/self-awareness/soul/conscience/personality - or however you want to call it - is determined by the subatomic position of all the particles your brain is comprised of, why is there always some sort of core-identity that prevails throughout your life (ignoring heavy traumata/turning-points that change a personality)?
And don't tell me that the matter your brain consists of is in a fixed state...

I do not really have an answer and I would really like more information on that topic (I guess some others are more adept on this kind of topic than I am).
I am not trying to defend Synthesis or Control here, I am just genuinely interested on this topic.


Oh dear.  I think that translates roughly into "Does this unit have a soul?"

#71656
demersel

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By the way - i got a very close look at the object Rho. It has some white-blueish stuff flowing through it. Very much like the Shadow Broker's ship has a white stuff (presumably - information) - flowing through the pipes.

And there is more.
The reactor core in arrival - is a giant blue ball of light. And it is supported by tubes that feed blue lequid into it to stabilize it. That blue ball looks very much like the core of the reaper.
Omega also has power pipes, through which red fluid lfows - power, and blue pipes with blue liquid - refined eazo, No that is very interesting. The reapers tell you that all races and all technology in the galaxy develops by the path that they desire. Now, what if that path - that all technology is like a reaper - more so that we are aware of? What if blue round energy balls, like the reaper core IS the way ALL reactors are? And all power flows? In every ship? In factory? In everything? What if all technology that we use are pieces of the puzzle that makes out a reaper if combined?
Omega is more like a living, breathing organism.
Shadow Broker's has the same interior design as Omega by the way.

Modifié par demersel, 22 décembre 2012 - 11:16 .


#71657
CoolioThane

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Hey Blur, fancy some MP?

#71658
BleedingUranium

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demersel wrote...

By the way - i got a very close look at the object Rho. It has some white-blueish stuff flowing through it. Very much like the Shadow Broker's ship has a white stuff (presumably - information) - flowing through the pipes.

And there is more.
The reactor core in arrival - is a giant blue ball of light. And it is supported by tubes that feed blue lequid into it to stabilize it. That blue ball looks very much like the core of the reaper.
Omega also has power pipes, through which red fluid lfows - power, and blue pipes with blue liquid - refined eazo, No that is very interesting. The reapers tell you that all races and all technology in the galaxy develops by the path that they desire. Now, what if that path - that all technology is like a reaper - more so that we are aware of? What if blue round energy balls, like the reaper core IS the way ALL reactors are? And all power flows? In every ship? In factory? In everything? What if all technology that we use are pieces of the puzzle that makes out a reaper if combined?
Omega is more like a living, breathing organism.
Shadow Broker's has the same interior design as Omega by the way.


An eezo core is an eezo core, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

#71659
BleedingUranium

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CoolioThane wrote...

Hey Blur, fancy some MP?


When my TV isn't being used Posted Image

#71660
demersel

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I'm not trying to prove anything, Blur. It is just, what is eazo anyway? And where does it come from? It is the Spice of Mass Effect. And you know where that came from. And raw eazo really looks like something that is left over from leviathans. (as seen in Omega).

#71661
paxxton

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Rifneno wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

You know if you think literally... Brat says they control TIM. Now if that's the case, then doesn't that makes TIM's ideas the Reapers ideas.

Wanting to control the Reapers. The Reapers idea.
Wanting to save humanity. The Reapers idea.
Experimenting on all the galaxy's races. Reapers idea.

TIM's talk about how destroying the Reapers gains us nothing. The Reapers idea.
What TIM does in ME3 all the Reapers doing. Ya what the brat says is true right, so that means he is behind TIM's crimes.

Oh wait he is just following his prgraming. Ya it has chocie, just like soldiers have chocie to follow the order through, as did Victors monster.

Oh ya IT, or literal TIM is being controlled by the Reapers. If you don't see TIM is their puppet, then I don't know.


And TIM "needs you to believe" that control is possible.

I'm sure control will work just fine and everyone will live happily ever after!

On Mars he says that he doesn't need Shepard to believe or agree with him. Change of mind is not something TIM is known of to have.

Modifié par paxxton, 22 décembre 2012 - 11:21 .


#71662
BleedingUranium

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demersel wrote...

I'm not trying to prove anything, Blur. It is just, what is eazo anyway? And where does it come from? It is the Spice of Mass Effect. And you know where that came from. And raw eazo really looks like something that is left over from leviathans. (as seen in Omega).


It's a (fictional) naturally occurring element, not a Reaper creation.

#71663
spotlessvoid

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Restrider :

Sufficient processing power to create enough redundancy to allow part of that processing power to be used for internal monitoring.

If your asking about quantum mechanics, them it's a simple matter of scale. Organic matter does not immediately decay because the uncertainty of particles does not directly interfere with order above a certain scale

#71664
cyrexwingblade

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I do find the argument that Shepalyst validly copying Shepard is a violation of the Heisenberg principle a bit silly when we're saying the Reapers retain the knowledge and memories of their respective races after *reducing them to protein paste*.

The game-world is clear that Reaper tech can extrapolate organic mental processes in ways real science would either scream about or hide in a corner and cry over.

Using too much RL approach for a fictional and fringe-science scenario at best is just going to give you an anuerism. Much safer to just examine it literarily, and see about author-intent.

#71665
Restrider

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@CmdrShep80
Would you kindly provide me with that sound comparision you found? Thanks in advance.

#71666
byne

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demersel wrote...

I'm not trying to prove anything, Blur. It is just, what is eazo anyway? And where does it come from? It is the Spice of Mass Effect. And you know where that came from. And raw eazo really looks like something that is left over from leviathans. (as seen in Omega).


Eezo is from stars going supernova. It helps to read the codex sometimes. ;)

#71667
Eryri

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BleedingUranium wrote...

demersel wrote...

I'm not trying to prove anything, Blur. It is just, what is eazo anyway? And where does it come from? It is the Spice of Mass Effect. And you know where that came from. And raw eazo really looks like something that is left over from leviathans. (as seen in Omega).


It's a (fictional) naturally occurring element, not a Reaper creation.


I seem to remember the explanation for eezo in the codex, was that it was matter that had been irradiated by a supernova explosion? 

Edit: :ph34r:'d

Modifié par Eryri, 22 décembre 2012 - 11:29 .


#71668
Dwailing

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Restrider :

Sufficient processing power to create enough redundancy to allow part of that processing power to be used for internal monitoring.

If your asking about quantum mechanics, them it's a simple matter of scale. Organic matter does not immediately decay because the uncertainty of particles does not directly interfere with order above a certain scale


Pft, atheists. :P [jk, I'm totally not a religious person.  I'm the commonly thought of definition of agnostic at best (Not wanting to restart that discussion, not for any particular reason, just don't want to start it again.).]

#71669
Restrider

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Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Yeah, I mean, Shepard is asleep for two days being studied by indoctrinated peopel. There's no way that could possibly mean anything sinister happens/is happening. ****ing idiots


Not only that, but he can hear Harbinger in his head BEFORE he get's knocked out, and has a long conversation with a giant transparent image of him in outer space AFTER. Yeah, sure, nothing is wrong with Shepard.  


But he's not having anymore visions! :whistle:

On this note:
What do people think about Sovereign's "YOU TOUCH MY MIND"?
It appeared to be normal holo-communication back on Virmire, but so did the discussion with Harbinger on that remote landing pad...

#71670
CmdrShep80

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Rifneno wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Anyone can and should be able to post anything to anyone as long as it's IT related. If it's a personal attack it doesn't belong here. Be professional, both of you.


speaking of IT I have both art books. When I'm done with what I'm doing I'll look for the dreadnaught pics you posted earlier and see if I can find them


How are the art books?  I was considering getting another.  Only have that trial-sized one that came with the collector's edition at the moment, but it's nice.


i liked them. They are a bit of the behind the scenes of what they intended on doing with the game. Some of their thoughts were downright strange though. Some of it makes sense like the TIM being indoctrinated and wanting you to fight a monster but the. They changed the fighting monster part into fighting tIM's intelligence. They didn't take out the indoctrinated part

#71671
BleedingUranium

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cyrexwingblade wrote...

I do find the argument that Shepalyst validly copying Shepard is a violation of the Heisenberg principle a bit silly when we're saying the Reapers retain the knowledge and memories of their respective races after *reducing them to protein paste*.

The game-world is clear that Reaper tech can extrapolate organic mental processes in ways real science would either scream about or hide in a corner and cry over.

Using too much RL approach for a fictional and fringe-science scenario at best is just going to give you an anuerism. Much safer to just examine it literarily, and see about author-intent.


Except that it's established in-universe that you can't do that either.

#71672
Restrider

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Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Of course not!  I'm sure he's talking to that coffee maker because it's voice programmable or something.


You mean Traynor?


Hey!  Traynor's good for more than coffee.  She can.. umm...  Well she...  Oh damn, that's my pager, gotta go.

She knows how to shower with her underwears...
Well, femShep as well.

#71673
CmdrShep80

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Restrider wrote...

Has something of interest happened in the last 24 hours?


the world ended Nd began anew and I posted about the sounds in the main menu being similar to the breath scene. Though the sound files themselves don't show that, when you listen with headphones it's earily similar

#71674
spotlessvoid

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Instead of lecturing a 7000+ page thread with hundreds of members about how to approach literary analysis, maybe you should actually provide some

#71675
Restrider

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Rifneno wrote...

Restrider wrote...

The point I am trying to say is the following:
If your individuality/self-awareness/soul/conscience/personality - or however you want to call it - is determined by the subatomic position of all the particles your brain is comprised of, why is there always some sort of core-identity that prevails throughout your life (ignoring heavy traumata/turning-points that change a personality)?
And don't tell me that the matter your brain consists of is in a fixed state...

I do not really have an answer and I would really like more information on that topic (I guess some others are more adept on this kind of topic than I am).
I am not trying to defend Synthesis or Control here, I am just genuinely interested on this topic.


Oh dear.  I think that translates roughly into "Does this unit have a soul?"

Simply put, but accurate...