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[ThisOneIsPunny]

Vilyn117 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Okay 117.

Leviathan.

Proved that Shepard is not that strong when it came down to Leviathan getting into Shepard's head.

Leviathan takes the form of Ann, and to other people you meet in Levithan. Similar to how the Reaper leader takes the form of the child. [/u][u]

Levithan's ending is in Shepard's head.

Leviathan tells Shepard that his/her memorys give them voice.

Leviathan creates Ann's father's lab table inside Shepard's head. Similar to how the Citadle is made up of places Shepard has been to.

Leviathan yes proved that their is an intellengence/ leader of the Reapers, but it did not say where it is, nor it is the Catalyst.
Leviathan also lied to us about the Crucible. Leviathan's eyes look down to the left when Shepard ask about them knowing about the crucible, yet it only said that they watched it's creation, but always failed.

Leviathan in all proves that yes Shepard can be undergoing Indoctrination at the end. The brat/ Leader of the Reapers ( Harbinger which I believe is) is inside Shepard's head. How else does it know about that one child. His/her memorys being used against him/her to think everything is real.

Omega not much to say, never played it, so can some one explain Omega to 117.

I don't feel as strongly pulled by this evidence as with the original theory. Some of it just seems like...forced. I can never take anything regarding eyes seriously with Bioware, since that was also something brought up from TIM, but since the entirety of the game has horrible animations, I'm going to disregard that and settle with story plot. It does seem weird how shepard went from strong minded to be weak in Leviathin, but I took it as the original reapers...the organics, were simply better at it or stronger than they synthetic, faked, counterparts. Just like how a computer is weaker than a human brain.

And it's in his head...how so? The mech thing never happened? Is that what youre getting at?



Edit: And while this DLC showed that yes, they CAN get in shepards head, the rest of the DLC is simply taken at face value when SHepard is Shepard, if you know what I mean. When leviathin gets in shepards head, wouldnt he be aware that shepard was indoctrinated? Fighting control for shepard?

The eye movement was very obvious body language, what it could suggest is up for speculation but most tend to believe it signifies deceit.
What's so important about the forms Leviathan takes is that they're:
A. People Shepard has recently met
B. People Leviathan has enthralled and killed(or potentially killed in the case of Ann)
C. Used both by the Leviathans and Bioware for the sake of expressions (i.e. facial expressions, general body language, etc see D. Vocal expression not so much, but there are still some parts that can be discernable)
and D. speak some.. pretty strange lines and have specific body language that kind of fall into a pattern??
Ann Bryson-Resolve, Curiosity
Derek Hadley- Defensive, Self-Preservation
Fake Garneau-Deception, Unknowns(Ambiguity probably works better?? hm)
I will find some lines upon request, but it would take a while(it's one in the morning here).
I can also try to do a more in-depth analysis of the body language I guess?? but again, it wouldn't be until later.

Also other things.. that i am forgetting..

[Vilyn117]

masster blaster wrote...

Ah but in Control the brat didn't tell you that the cycle will start over did it now. All it said was Shepard is going to control the Reapers, and that's it. Also um do you not see that your Shepard in Control does not sound the same? It's a copy of a use to be Shepard nothing more.

If you argue that Shepard is alive in Control no he/she is not. If you believe the brat, then the brat told you that Shepard is going to die, but will control the Reapers. How? Ya downloading your thoughts/ memorys into the hive mind.

Also why else did you not pick Destroy pray do tell?

Shepard is controlling them, he may not be "alive" but he is the new owner of the reapers, if you take it at face value. So no, they wouldnt be coming in and attacking randomly. Becuase of what I said before. It kills a non hostile race who is highly intelligent and wants to live like anybody else, it does not stop the cycle, shepard dies for nothing, and fails. Also I want to put out shepard "living" doesnt have to be "living". He is PART synthetic, and took a breath. Maybe his final breath? Maybe you watched shepard die. Maybe he'll die in the rubble he's trapped in. I do not believe shepard actually gets up and walks away like in ME1. Also, how do you take the EC ending where you shoot the catalyst and they just kill everyone and it shows liaras message in the future? How does that tie into your theory?

[masster blaster]

Restrider wrote...

----------Preamble----------

This list has been compiled to enable an easy access to The Indoctrination Theory. While there are many other aspects, hints and signs throughout Mass Effect 3 and the entire trilogy that may also point to The Indoctrination Theory, the concepts presented in this list are - to the best of my knowledge - the most compelling ones. Take into account that my role in this undertaking was mainly the role of an editor, though many broader suggestions I found to be convincing, made it into the list. The vast majority of the points listed below were reported by fellow associates of The Indoctrination Theory and they deserve the correspondent gratitude.
The order of the list was determined through surveys and polls that can be found here.

----------The Ten Most Important Concepts Supporting The Indoctrination Theory----------

     
        I) Indoctrination in general :

          1.   Regarding IT, Shepard is in the process of indoctrination and the outcome is decided by the final decision taken.
          2.   The concept of indoctrination is a crucial part throughout the trilogy and nothing new to the player (link 1 and 2).
          3.   Rana Thanoptis is an example of how subtle and slow indoctrination can be.
          4.   Shepard was knocked out for two days by a Reaper artifact that indoctrinated an entire facility.
          5.   Logs on the derelict Reaper and in Arrival (link) illustrate the reactions of victims of indoctrination.
          6.   Paul Grayson's indoctrination show its effects on someone's mind.
          7.   Harbinger's smacktalk (link 1 and 2).

 
       II) The Breath Scene :

          1.   London rubble (link 1 and 2).
          2.   Mako in the background.
          3.   Citadel explosion (link 1 and 2).


    III) The Dreams :
         
          1.   Dream sequences and post-beam sequence share the same game mechanics.
          2.   Reality-nonreality transition after beam shot (post-beam, dreams, Geth Consensus).
          3.   Oily shadows and whispering.
          4.   Nightmares are mentioned in the Arrival by subjects being indoctrinated.
          5.   Chambers and Asari having PTSD as comparison between PTSD & Shepard's dreams.


    IV) Leviathan :

          1.   Harbinger/the Reapers perfected enthrallment to indoctrination.
          2.   Enthrallment uses memories of its victim.
          3.   Similarities between Leviathan end and decision chamber.
          4.   Zap sound as a sign to enter/leave virtual reality (link 1 and 2).


     V) The Choices :

          1.   Shepard on his knees happened only during/after some mind control.
          2.   The Guardian is aligned to the Reapers.
          3.   Control and Synthesis being supported by indoctrinated characters.
          4.   A swap in the colours (TIM = Paragon; Anderson = Renegade).
          5.   Huskification during Control/Synthesis vs. Shepard gaining strength while shooting the tubes.
          6.   Guardian losing it when you refuse ("SO BE IT!").
          7.   Decision chamber looks like a dialogue wheel from an aerial view.
          8.   Decision chamber resembling beam scenery (link 1 and 2).
          9.   Ambiguous end dialogue (Control/Synthesis).
        10.   Slide shows in Control/Synthesis/Destroy illustrate future possibilities, not facts that already happened.
        11.   Soldiers in Destroy fighting fiercely while in Control/Synthesis they are losing (note: no cheering in Synthesis).


    VI) The Kid :

         1.   Moves from one roof to another during an invasion (all links).
         2.   It can open a door that is marked as locked.
         3.   It survives a blast from a Reaper laser.
         4.   It is not seen by anyone else.
         5.   There always are warning symbols around it.
         6.   It disappears without making any noise.
         7.   It does not behave like a normal kid ("You cannot save me!").
         8.   The Guardian has the same form as the kid.


   VII) Anderson & TIM :

         1.   How did Anderson follow Shepard?
         2.   How can Anderson reach the control first?
         3.   Why did no one else follow Anderson?
         4.   From where did TIM shows up?
         5.   TIM's scars are only present at the end of the game.
         6.   Anderson may be addressing Shepard ("They are controlling you!").
         7.   Shepard is dominated by TIM and thus through him by the Reapers.
         8.   Anderson and Shepard have wounds at the same place (link 1 and 2).
         9.   Reaper horn played in the background (at 1/2 speed).
       10.   The EMS requirements depend on Anderson's fate in the confrontation with TIM.


  VIII) The Guardian :

         1.   It has the same shape as the kid ( thus an extraction of Shepard's memories).
         2.   It speaks with femshep's and maleshep's voice.
         3.   Harbinger's line in the MP trailer (link 1 and 2).
         4.   The Guardian is a liar regardless of the interpretation of the endings.


    IX) The Beam Run :

        1.   Harbinger is pin-pointing everyone and everything but Shepard.
        2.   Harbinger does not destroy the Normandy.
        3.   Shepard survives a blast that should one-shot Makos and Gunships.
        4.   Harbinger just leaves.


     X) The Citadel :

        1.   The Citadel resembles events of the past.
        2.   You can find Coats dead on the Citadel.

----------Epilogue----------

I would again like to thank everyone that has contributed to this list and if only a single person gains a broader perspective of The Indoctrination Theory through this list, the porpuse of this undertaking has been fulfilled and not in vain. This list may seem to be complete, but there are certainly going to be new discoveries in the course of exploring new content and I will try to adjust this list accordingly.


Version 1.1  (01.12.2012)

This explains all of IT 117, well most of it.

[CmdrShep80]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Ah and there it is. Tell me 117 what ending did you pick?

Control, obviously. Shepard is not a "dictator", just because he controls reapers doesnt mean hes just going to become Big Brother. Synthesis is wrong on many levels. Both of those endings has shepard performing his own sacrifice. Destroy he does not sacrifice himself, he somehow "lives", while failing his mission, because a temporary win is not a real victory.

hmm an analogy I could help it. So Mubarak a dictator was ousted and Morsi a fair person of the people steps in via a vote. Next thing we know he overrides the judiciary, creates a document that gives more power and does a few other things. All in the name of bringing a few to justice...


another analogy. Assad claimed to be a fair dictator ruling with a fair hand. He is in charge of a nice country. Next thing you know, 40,000 civies later...well scuds are raining on the population, tanks and choppers, etc. 

now you have Shepard, a fair and nice person ruling over the galaxy. Suddenly the Krogan want to reignite their blood fuss with the Salarians. What will Control Shepard do?  Suddenly the Quarians and Geth go at it again over a miscommunication ovation, What will control Shepard do?  Suddenly the Rach I decide to invade Palave. What will Control Shepard do?  The Volus puts a bad bank deal on the Elcor for damages to their home world. What will control Shepard do?

[GethPrimeMKII]

Vilyn117 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Ah and there it is. Tell me 117 what ending did you pick?

Control, obviously. Shepard is not a "dictator", just because he controls reapers doesnt mean hes just going to become Big Brother. Synthesis is wrong on many levels. Both of those endings has shepard performing his own sacrifice. Destroy he does not sacrifice himself, he somehow "lives", while failing his mission, because a temporary win is not a real victory.

You're kidding right? That entire speech he gives for the control pretty much tells you Big Brother is exactly what he intends to become.

[Vilyn117]

It's as if Bioware doesn't reuse textures everywhere. Oh wait. It's as if Shepard doesn't always survive stupid odds in all 3 games. Oh wait. People never overthink the "normal" things, but as soon as something is interpreted in a certain way, they manipulate mountains of random evidence and call it proof. SOME things are interesting, yes, and that gives backing. But anything that relies on reused textures, shoddy animations (which is an issue in ALL of Me3), or requires a damn flycam to see (which means it isnt actually meant to be seen ingame and hence cant be used as evidence because Bioware isnt trying to press it on the player), just cant be counted as evidence. Now I don't entirely dismiss the fun and thought of the theory, but the reason a lot of it is just laughable is because of a lot of the things you quoted surmount to nothing. Harbinger misses shepard? So does every other gun in the galaxy. So does the reaper on rannoch. Shepard survives a blast that one shots makos? My shepard in ME1 also had a gun that never overheated and put out better damage than the mako. If that was in ME3, it'd be used as evidence because of how absurd it is. That's my take on most of this. But the evidence that is story related is the interesting stuff.

Edit: I'm not saying youre wrong, I'm just saying most of the "evidence" is piles of manure. Both sides have their claims, both sides are right. (I side with the, bioware got a little downhill with their story ability, crowd).

Modifié par Vilyn117, 23 décembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[masster blaster]

Um question is why would the brat tell Shepard in Destroy " Even you are partly synthetics." Unless Shepard is going to die in Destroy, yet some how he/she lives, then the brat lied/ missed calculated. Also Shepard alive in Destroy means that he/she can help build a future, were the cycle won't start over again.

Then again how does the brat know about what all three endings will happen?

[Vilyn117]

masster blaster wrote...

Um question is why would the brat tell Shepard in Destroy " Even you are partly synthetics." Unless Shepard is going to die in Destroy, yet some how he/she lives, then the brat lied/ missed calculated. Also Shepard alive in Destroy means that he/she can help build a future, were the cycle won't start over again.

Then again how does the brat know about what all three endings will happen?

As I alreadysaid before rebuttling your theory...who says shepard lives? You? Yeah. thats it. YOU.  Have you never been to a hospital? People breath and die. He's trapped under rubble. You saw your hero taking  one of his final breaths before it was over. That's that.

[masster blaster]

Well I tried, but...look 117 since you can't see IT haveing anything at all, then go to the Control thread. Comman things are comman things, but what is to say about life itself. Do huamns believe on what they see, or what they believe in. The problem with humans is that they would believe in anything. Right or worng what is the truth, and what is a lie. Can people lie, as can machins, or can people just believe in what they want to believe.

[Vilyn117]

magnetite wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...
Shepard is controlling them, he may not be "alive" but he is the new owner of the reapers, if you take it at face value. So no, they wouldnt be coming in and attacking randomly. Becuase of what I said before. It kills a non hostile race who is highly intelligent and wants to live like anybody else, it does not stop the cycle, shepard dies for nothing, and fails. Also I want to put out shepard "living" doesnt have to be "living". He is PART synthetic, and took a breath. Maybe his final breath? Maybe you watched shepard die. Maybe he'll die in the rubble he's trapped in. I do not believe shepard actually gets up and walks away like in ME1. Also, how do you take the EC ending where you shoot the catalyst and they just kill everyone and it shows liaras message in the future? How does that tie into your theory?

It's been said many times in the past that anyone who thinks they can control Reapers, they get controlled by Reapers. That's no different now. If people let themselves be convinced that isn't the way it's supposed to be, they've been indoctrinated.

If you synthesize with the Reapers and merge your DNA with theirs, the Reapers win. Reapers aren't synthetic, they're a hybrid of organic and synthetic as said during the suicide mission. If people thought the synthesis ending was to basically take organics and turn people into machine-hybrids, they somehow got convinced that the Reaper's solution was the best choice (as stated by Starbinger, as the "ideal" solution).

Quarians are actually partly synthetic according to Harbinger, but they live during all endings.

It's only no different if you say it isn't. But it's very different because the crucible was never finished before, which gave the ability to actually do it. (or so one side of the argument says).

[masster blaster]

I am going to bed guys, but I will repost something before I go.

[Vilyn117]

masster blaster wrote...

Well I tried, but...look 117 since you can't see IT haveing anything at all, then go to the Control thread. Comman things are comman things, but what is to say about life itself. Do huamns believe on what they see, or what they believe in. The problem with humans is that they would believe in anything. Right or worng what is the truth, and what is a lie. Can people lie, as can machins, or can people just believe in what they want to believe.

It's a discussion forum about IT, so I came here to have a discussion. Being in a thread for people to go YEAAAH CONTROL ROCKS DUDE, isn't any fun.

masster blaster wrote...

I am going to bed guys, but I will repost something before I go.

Night dude, nice chatting.

Modifié par Vilyn117, 23 décembre 2012 - 06:47 .

[masster blaster]

masster blaster wrote...

Byne:Wake up.

Shepard:Where am I?


Byne:The IT thread. It's my home.

Shepard:Who are you?

Byne:I am the Catayst.

Shepard:I thought the IT thread
was the Catalyst.

Byne:No the IT thread is a part of me.

Shepard: I need to know how to stop wake up. Do you know how I can do that?

Byne: I created the IT thread. It is my solution.

Shepard: Solution? To what.

Byne: Explation to what happened at the end of ME3.

Some time later.....

Byne: I know you thought about Destroying the Reapers. You could pick Destroy and wake up.

Shepard: And the Reapers will be Destroyed?

Byne. No you would have to wake up from the visions you will have at the end. Then you would have to Destroy the Reapers another way. Unless you didn't prepare the galaxy, and gather enough war assets, then you could not wake up.

Shepard: Explain to me how prepareing the galaxy, and gathering my allies can help wake myself up.

Byne: You have gathered enough war assets/ prepared the galaxy. However if you made very bad chocies your mind will be plunged into a state of grief which may cause you to experence real life visions. So do not be tricked.

Shepard: But I can wake up?

Byne: That depends again on your choices.

Shepard: what about that choice on the left, and the one in the middle? Do they help wake me up?

Byne: they do but...

Shepard: but what?

Byne: You will never be the same. Everything you are now will be over writen. Your thoughts, your memorys all will be used against you.

Shepard: What do you mean? I don't understand what you are talking about.

Byne: right now your being Indoctrinated.

Shepard: Indoctrinated? How I thought I am....

Byne: No your not immune to Indoctrination. Everything you see right now is all made up of your memeories including me.

Shepard: So if I pick those two other choices....

Byne: You will lose yourself to the Reapers.

Shepard: But what if I refused these choices. Will I wake up?

Byne: You will....resist the Reapers, but no matter how much war assets you brought/ prepared the galaxy. You will not wake up. Your body right now is under Harbingers watch. If you don't make a choices right now Harbinger will kill you here right now.

Shepard: So what's to stop Harbinger from killing me if I pick Destroy?

Byne: Your ship, and crew are on their way to save you. If you move to the right they can save you from Harbingers laser.But if you refuse Harbinger, then you will stand in place, and the Normandy can't save you.

Shepard: But how? How do they save me in Destroy, but not refuse?

Byne: Why are you here?

Shepard: To stop the Reapers...why do you ask?

Byne: And how far will you go to end the Reapers?

Shepard: I....I.. don't know how far I would go. I can't kill the ones I love because I am not like that.

Byne: Then the war is lost.

Shepard: It's not..just because I can't Destroy the Reapers this way doesn't mean I can't another way.

Byne: There is no other way. If you want to refuse Harbinger go a head. But know all your love ones will die because you could not kill a race, and a friend.

Shepard: I thought you said I would wake up in Destroy if I pick it, but now your telling me one of my friends and a race will die.

Byne: That's if you will believe in what Harbinger tells you/ shows you. But if they do die, then it will be trying to save you. More may die in Destroy, than what Harbinger will tell you, but if you prepared the galaxy, and gathered enough war assets, then maybe you won't have to loose more than what you would have lost.

Shepard:.......

Byne: Harbinger is coming. Shepard what is about to happen right now you must not fall for Harbingers falls words/ promisses, and remember he will take the form of the......

* byne vanishes, and scene changes to the catalyst chambers*


Few minutes later.

Catalyst: The paths are open you must choose.

[masster blaster]

117 why not. Donesn't the Control thread have fun their, or do they just talk about Control?

Here on the IT thread we talk about anything. IT,ME,DAO,life,X mas, and more. Oh and pie.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Lols alright I'm calling it a night.h

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 23 décembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[Vilyn117]

masster blaster wrote...

117 why not. Donesn't the Control thread have fun their, or do they just talk about Control?

Here on the IT thread we talk about anything. IT,ME,DAO,life,X mas, and more. Oh and pie.

I came here to not be OT.

I actually enjoy coming to the ME3 forums to talk about ME3. Not...something else.

Modifié par Vilyn117, 23 décembre 2012 - 06:58 .

[masster blaster]

Mag almost. Pax is a Controller that likes IT, and LDS is a Synthesiser, yet likes IT, and Jade is a refuser that likes IT. So it's a mixture, but mostly Destroyers.

[masster blaster]

Well 117 not as much OT, but when there is nothing to speculate on, or we need a break we go OT for a bit. Plus it's a bonding time for us. That's how many of use got to know eachother.

Oh guys we just need 51 more members to go to have 500 ITers.

[masster blaster]

I am not sure about Hanar. He changes sides from time to time.

[masster blaster]

Crap I really need some sleep. Night.