80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Schachmatt wrote...
Nope. The memories of the harvested civilizations are a part of every reaper. He as their mastermind does exactely know what pain is - and that it is not a pleasent sensation. As Mordin states in ME 2 - iirc - the collectors weapons are specificially designt to cause them great pain.

if each Reaper retained the memories of the harvested  species, the Reapers would turn on the Catalyst. By memories, they mean the essance, or what that species was, are preserved in each Reaper.

[Rifneno]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...
Nope. The memories of the harvested civilizations are a part of every reaper. He as their mastermind does exactely know what pain is - and that it is not a pleasent sensation. As Mordin states in ME 2 - iirc - the collectors weapons are specificially designt to cause them great pain.

if each Reaper retained the memories of the harvested  species, the Reapers would turn on the Catalyst. By memories, they mean the essance, or what that species was, are preserved in each Reaper.

I like how you start coming up with headcanon to defend the ridiculous stance that the most intelligent AI ever created doesn't realize that pain is unpleasant.

[ElSuperGecko]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
While i wouldn't go that far, I'd argue that someone being right or wrong is subjective. For example, Catalyst thinks he is doing the right thing, and we think what he's doing is terrible.

Of course, the Catalyst isn't burdened by such petty organic principles such as freedom, morality, empathy and emotion.  No such thing as love or hope or honour clouding it's judgement!

That being the case, I wonder why it's original "solution" failed...

I direct you to read my previous posts on the subject.

Actually, that's probably not the most important question anyway.  The most important question is "does the problem which the Catalyst is attempting to find a solution for even exist in the first place?"

Maybe it did for the Leviathan, when the organic races they subjugated tried to fight back against them, but does it exist now?

Is the Catalyst's programming actually no longer relevant?

If so, shouldn't we just throw it out of the airlock and be done with it once and for all?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Rifneno wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...
Nope. The memories of the harvested civilizations are a part of every reaper. He as their mastermind does exactely know what pain is - and that it is not a pleasent sensation. As Mordin states in ME 2 - iirc - the collectors weapons are specificially designt to cause them great pain.

if each Reaper retained the memories of the harvested  species, the Reapers would turn on the Catalyst. By memories, they mean the essance, or what that species was, are preserved in each Reaper.

I like how you start coming up with headcanon to defend the ridiculous stance that the most intelligent AI ever created doesn't realize that pain is unpleasant.

It's not headcanon that if you've never experienced something, you don't know what it's truly like. The entire Legion story was based on that concept.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

ElSuperGecko wrote...
Actually, that's probably not the most important question anyway.  The most important question is "does the problem which the Catalyst is attempting to find a solution for even exist in the first place?"

Maybe it did for the Leviathan, when the organic races they subjugated tried to fight back against them, but does it exist now?

Is the Catalyst's programming actually no longer relevant?

If so, shouldn't we just throw it out of the airlock and be done with it once and for all?

Didn't Leviathan say the synthetic races rebelled against their organic thralls, not their thralls rebel against them, unless I'm missreading your second line?

As for the latter bit, I've stated that he is beyond redeemable, and thus should return to nothing.

[Rifneno]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

It's not headcanon that if you've never experienced something, you don't know what it's truly like. The entire Legion story was based on that concept.

No, the headcanon is that bit about memory wipes so they won't turn on the "catalyst."  The notion that this superintelligent being never happened to notice that people try desperately to avoid pain, or hell, even just knows the definition of the word... that's just asinine.

[ElSuperGecko]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Didn't Leviathan say the synthetic races rebelled against their organic thralls, not their thralls rebel against them, unless I'm missreading your second line?

Sorry, you're correct.

As for the latter bit, I've stated that he is beyond redeemable, and thus should return to nothing.

On that we can agree.  I'm almost convinced that the Catalyst represents a technological singularity itself.  Paradoxes abound.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Rifneno wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

It's not headcanon that if you've never experienced something, you don't know what it's truly like. The entire Legion story was based on that concept.

No, the headcanon is that bit about memory wipes so they won't turn on the "catalyst."  The notion that this superintelligent being never happened to notice that people try desperately to avoid pain, or hell, even just knows the definition of the word... that's just asinine.

He doesn't seem to understand that each cycle involves a war, he's just "doing what he was created to do." In fact, that brings up a good point. The Leviathans gave him the mandate to preserve life at any cost. We've established that he considers Reapers preserving them, so even if he does know what pain is, he simply doesn't care because it's requires for his plan to succeed.

[ElSuperGecko]

Posted the other day to... not much response, but going to post again.

Does anyone see any similarity between the Leviathan and the Aboleth of D&D?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboleth

The Reapers bear a passing resembelence to Aboleth, they're both incredibly ancient and alien, they both use a form of pychic mind control to subjugate lesser races to act as thralls...

...and interestingly the Aboleth's ruling body is known as the Sovereignity... 

[Schachmatt123]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

It's not headcanon that if you've never experienced something, you don't know what it's truly like. The entire Legion story was based on that concept.

A few posts earlier you implied this:

'For all he knows, pain is a pleasant sensation.'

How did you came up with this?

Face it: The memories are part of every reaper. It's part of the established lore. The reapers does exately know what they're doing. They use indoctrination to counteract resistance - and resistance does not grow from enjoing something.

Modifié par Schachmatt, 24 décembre 2012 - 06:01 .

[Rifneno]

*sigh* I miss the days when this thread was free from people actually believing starbinger's bull****...

[BleedingUranium]

Dwailing wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Merry Christmas Eve everyone!

Merry Christmas Eve!  I've already opened my first gift (We always open one gift on Christmas Eve in my family.), and it's a Master Chief action figure!

We do that too! I think it's a Danish tradition, my grandpa (dad's dad)'s family is all from there. Sadly I won't be home tonight

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...
Nope. The memories of the harvested civilizations are a part of every reaper. He as their mastermind does exactely know what pain is - and that it is not a pleasent sensation. As Mordin states in ME 2 - iirc - the collectors weapons are specificially designt to cause them great pain.

if each Reaper retained the memories of the harvested species, the Reapers would turn on the Catalyst. By memories, they mean the essance, or what that species was, are preserved in each Reaper.

I like how you start coming up with headcanon to defend the ridiculous stance that the most intelligent AI ever created doesn't realize that pain is unpleasant.

It's not headcanon that if you've never experienced something, you don't know what it's truly like. The entire Legion story was based on that concept.

Except every time you have one of those talks with Legion, he goes out of his way to say that he understands the concepts even if he doesn't experience them.

Schachmatt wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

While i wouldn't go that far, I'd argue that someone being right or wrong is subjective. For example, Catalyst thinks he is doing the right thing, and we think what he's doing is terrible.

If he really thinks he is doing the right thing, then why does he agonize organics? After all this endless cycles he sure must know that his methods are painful. Like the collectors are in pain when using their weapons or banshees are in constant pain? And he must be aware that diluting organics must be horrible and painful for them.

If the simply cares about organics, he must've found a way to 'ascend' them without inflicting pain.



Sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker.

He has never experienced pain himself, and so doesn't know what pain is. For all he knows, pain is a pleasant sensation. As I said in the above post, I don't think he's redeemable, but there are two sides to everything. I'd post this anime poster since it's relevent, but since everyone on right now seems to hate it, I'll just quote the words. "War doesn't determine who is right...only who is left."

Nope. The memories of the harvested civilizations are a part of every reaper. He as their mastermind does exactely know what pain is - and that it is not a pleasent sensation. As Mordin states in ME 2 - iirc - the collectors weapons are specificially designt to cause them great pain.

Great point! BansheeOwnage just reminded me of this yesterday, while I was playing ME2.

[ElSuperGecko]

Rifneno wrote...
*sigh* I miss the days when this thread was free from people actually believing starbinger's bull****...

Could be worse.  I'm having a debate with someone who thinks Shepard's will influences the Reapers in Synthesis...

[ElSuperGecko]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
Nope. The memories of the harvested civilizations are a part of every reaper. He as their mastermind does exactely know what pain is - and that it is not a pleasent sensation. As Mordin states in ME 2 - iirc - the collectors weapons are specificially designt to cause them great pain.

Great point! BansheeOwnage just reminded me of this yesterday, while I was playing ME2.

To put it even more simply...

...THIS HURTS YOU.

[Rifneno]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
Nope. The memories of the harvested civilizations are a part of every reaper. He as their mastermind does exactely know what pain is - and that it is not a pleasent sensation. As Mordin states in ME 2 - iirc - the collectors weapons are specificially designt to cause them great pain.

Great point! BansheeOwnage just reminded me of this yesterday, while I was playing ME2.

To put it even more simply...

...THIS HURTS YOU.

Clearly he thought Shepard would enjoy it!  </sarcasm>

[byne]

Rifneno wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
Nope. The memories of the harvested civilizations are a part of every reaper. He as their mastermind does exactely know what pain is - and that it is not a pleasent sensation. As Mordin states in ME 2 - iirc - the collectors weapons are specificially designt to cause them great pain.

Great point! BansheeOwnage just reminded me of this yesterday, while I was playing ME2.

To put it even more simply...

...THIS HURTS YOU.

Clearly he thought Shepard would enjoy it!  </sarcasm>

Maybe Harby and Shep are just kinky like that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Rifneno wrote...

*sigh* I miss the days when this thread was free from people actually believing starbinger's bull****...

And i miss the days people actually followed the rule "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."
Also, I'never said I believed him, in fact i said the contrary(in the anime turned me more against him than the IT thread post). All i've been argueing is that the Catalyst believes what he is saying.

[Andromidius]

Was playing Metro 2033. Really atmospheric game, really tense.

But my point here is this. There's a part where you're walking down a tunnel, and you bend down to listen to the pipes. You hear the echoy laughter of a child. Its exactly the same sound as the laugh you hear from the Child at the start of ME3.

Further reinforcement that the Child isn't real, and is a 'ghost' in Shepard's mind? It certainly joins up the dots for me, even if its not 'concrete proof'.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Schachmatt wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

It's not headcanon that if you've never experienced something, you don't know what it's truly like. The entire Legion story was based on that concept.

A few posts earlier you implied this:

'For all he knows, pain is a pleasant sensation.'

How did you came up with this?

Face it: The memories are part of every reaper. It's part of the established lore. The reapers does exately know what they're doing. They use indoctrination to counteract resistance - and resistance does not grow from enjoing something.

I've changed my mind to "He doesn't know what it is, but he simply doesn't care to find out."
As for the memories, you can think that it actually means memories, i won't stop you. Do whatever lets you enjoy the game. I just see the term memories to mean more what that race was, for example a democratic artisan race, than what each individual remembers, like what being huskified felt like. Otherwise, there would be at least some renegade Reapers who don't want other races going though what they did and try to stop the Catalyst, but instead they all mindlessly serve him. We're both right, but just by seeing it in different ways.

[Rifneno]

byne wrote...

Maybe Harby and Shep are just kinky like that.

Could be worse.

[Schachmatt123]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...
Nope. The memories of the harvested civilizations are a part of every reaper. He as their mastermind does exactely know what pain is - and that it is not a pleasent sensation. As Mordin states in ME 2 - iirc - the collectors weapons are specificially designt to cause them great pain.

if each Reaper retained the memories of the harvested  species, the Reapers would turn on the Catalyst. By memories, they mean the essance, or what that species was, are preserved in each Reaper.

For all we know, they are billions of minds: Legion on the reapers nature

I guess a mind contains memories?

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

We're both right, but just by seeing it in different ways.

Sorry, no. I don't headcanon and ignore the simple meaning of words in our discussion.

Modifié par Schachmatt, 24 décembre 2012 - 06:32 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

It's not headcanon that if you've never experienced something, you don't know what it's truly like. The entire Legion story was based on that concept.

Except every time you have one of those talks with Legion, he goes out of his way to say that he understands the concepts even if he doesn't experience them.

True, though that doesn't mean he truly knows what it's like. For example, I've never drunken alcohol, but I understand the concept of geting drunk. But since I will never drink, I will never actually experience it. Same goes with Catalyst towards pain: he knows it's a function of the nervous system, yet having none, will never know what pain truly is.

[Rifneno]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

It's not headcanon that if you've never experienced something, you don't know what it's truly like. The entire Legion story was based on that concept.

Except every time you have one of those talks with Legion, he goes out of his way to say that he understands the concepts even if he doesn't experience them.

True, though that doesn't mean he truly knows what it's like. For example, I've never drunken alcohol, but I understand the concept of geting drunk. But since I will never drink, I will never actually experience it. Same goes with Catalyst towards pain: he knows it's a function of the nervous system, yet having none, will never know what pain truly is.

He should join this conversation.  It's making me learn what pain is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Rifneno wrote...
He should join this conversation.  It's making me learn what pain is.

Remember the golden rule now, Rifneno: Treat others the way you want to be treated.

Edit: wow, critiqueing Rifneno to be nice, during Christmas Eve no less, getting top. That's divine providence right there.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 24 décembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

*sigh* I miss the days when this thread was free from people actually believing starbinger's bull****...

And i miss the days people actually followed the rule "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

That's never been a good rule. Ever.