80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Norlond]

Repost! For back-on-topic-ness!

Norlond wrote...
From Psychological manipulation and Persuasion:

"According to Simon, successful psychological manipulation primarily involves:
- manipulator concealing aggressive intentions and behaviors"
Checked
"- manipulator knowing the psychological vulnerabilities of the victim to determine what tactics are likely to be the most effective. "
Starbrat being Starbrat: Checked
"- manipulator having a sufficient level of ruthlessness to have no qualms about causing harm to the victim if necessary."
"So be it! The cycle continues!" Checked

"Simon identified the following manipulative techniques:

- Lying
- Lying by omission (lying by withholding truth)
- Denial (has done nothing wrong)
- Rationalisation (as excuse)
- Minimization (behavior is not as harmful as others think)
- Selective inattention or selective attention (ignores anything that distracts from his agenda)
- Diversion (not giving straight answer to straight question)
- Evasion (giving irrelevant, vague responses)
- Covert intimidation (throwing victim onto defensive)
- Guilt tripping (make victim feel guilty, selfish...)
- Shaming (increase self-doubt)
- Playing the victim role ("poor me")
- Vilifying the victim (putting victim onto defensive while masking aggressive behavior)
- Playing the servant role (of a noble cause)
- Seduction (charm, praise, flattery)
- Projecting the blame (just blaming others)
- Feigning innocence (any harm done was not intentional)
- Feigning confusion (playing dumb)
- Brandishing anger (acting angry)"

Starbrat does almost everything of these things, especially the bold ones

"Manipulation strategy:
1: Assessment phase: Determining the victims potential and its weak points
2: Manipulation phase: Putting on a mask and using the above techniques
3: Abandonment phase: If victim is no longer useful. It can happen quickly and without the victim knowing the manipulators intentions"

3 kind of applies to Refuse I think

So
it's clear Starbrat is manipulating us (who knew?), but how exactly
does he convince most players to choose Control/Synthesis?

"[Carl
Hovland] and his colleagues did experimental research into the factors
that can affect the persuasiveness of a message:

- Target Characteristics
The
way of conveying the message needs to be adapted to the
character/traits of the victim (intelligence, self-esteem, overall
mood...)
- Source Characteristics
It's important how the source of
the message presents itself; authority for example can be an important
factor in the effectivness of the persuasion
- Message Characteristics
What is the message the manipulator wants to convey and how does he do it?
- Cognitive Routes
The
message needs to appeal to the victims cognitive evaluation, in a way
that the received data will change the victims conclusion and/or view on
the situation. Another method is hiding the message behind its
source."

It should be quite obvious that Starbrat is adapting
his message to Shepards personality (heroism, willing to sacrifice
him/herself, for control/synthesis paragon-alignment, ...)
Source
characteristics... all I need to say is that Starbrat looks like the kid
from the beginning, the 'symbol of guilt' and blah
The Message
characteristics go hand in hand with the Target characteristics,
Starbrat appeals to Shepards traits (above) and presents Control and
Synthesis as Utopias to lure us into believing they are the right
choices that grant peace to the Galaxy forever (sounds beautiful doesn't
it?)
Starbrat knows exactly hoe Shepard will perceive his arguments
since he has almost full access to Shepards mind, he gives us just
enough data to come to the conclusion that destroying the Reapers is not
the way to go.
He does all that by using the techniques I listed above

Hope
it's not too confusing, most people tell me they can't follow my trains
of thoughts when I try to put my conclusions on paper [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

[Norlond]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Clevernoob's stuff is the worst IMO.

I think he makes a lot of bad calls, and his conclusions are just bizarre. Most IT-ers don't even really agree with most of his stuff. At least, AFAIK.

+1

The first two docs were... ok
But the last one... meh

[GethPrimeMKII]

Dysjong wrote...

Okay, i have just watch clevernoobs case regarding the Indoctrinarion Theory. He does have some valid points but not all of those he confirmed i agree on.

I will continue with going through all the content about IT.

Clevernoob tends to write off quite a few great peices of evidence that strongly support the theory. In some instances its almost like he does it to appease people who claim its all bad writing. 

[DoomsdayDevice]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Okay, i have just watch clevernoobs case regarding the Indoctrinarion Theory. He does have some valid points but not all of those he confirmed i agree on.

I will continue with going through all the content about IT.

Clevernoob tends to write off quite a few great peices of evidence that strongly support the theory. In some instances its almost like he does it to appease people who claim its all bad writing. 

Not to mention he makes mistakes, misses things, and then declares things that are completely doubtful as totally legit.

[lex0r11]

Dwailing wrote...

So, I just got done playing Halo 4 with Banshee and a few of his friends. I officially have a new nickname: Boston Guy. It's because of my accent.

East Coast!

[Andromidius]

Dysjong wrote...

Okay, i have just watch clevernoobs case regarding the Indoctrinarion Theory. He does have some valid points but not all of those he confirmed i agree on.

I will continue with going through all the content about IT.

Honestly, ignore Clevernoob.  He's not representitive of all of us.  Despite what he seems to think.

[DoomsdayDevice]

I really can't stand him. Just that condescending tone in his voice, as if he's explaining things to five year olds. And the way he explains the same thing over and over. It's so long-winded.... ugh. Everything about it just gets on my ******.

I always rant about this lol.

The first time I saw a CN "documentary" (the pretentiousness, ugh), I instantly realized how people can hate IT. Seriously.

I blame freaking clevernoob for all the hate we get.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 26 décembre 2012 - 02:04 .

[Gwyphon]

His first 2 videos were alright. They were a good introduction to the theory. The third one was pretty preachy though... He's just a classic outspoken member of the internet, really.

[Xilizhra]

If this is a hallucination, why does any of the Catalyst's dialogue or character matter? Wouldn't it just be some kind of psychodrama where it doesn't really matter what's being said, only that Shepard resists the hallucination?

[CoolioThane]

Dwailing, your accent is awesome

[Dysjong]

I have seen worse IT believers here on BSN.

As i have said, i will be going through all IT content and then compare them, that includes Clevernoobs documentary aswell.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Xilizhra wrote...

If this is a hallucination, why does any of the Catalyst's dialogue or character matter? Wouldn't it just be some kind of psychodrama where it doesn't really matter what's being said, only that Shepard resists the hallucination?

Because it's designed to fool people into thinking the whole thing makes sense.

[Ghaleon]

Playing Mass Effect 3 again really has me wondering wth is bioware doing, they do not seem to support IT but ME3 is full of subtle sometimes glaring hints that shepard is succumbing to indoctrination.

Did i miss something here like a developer interview or something that discusses this? i'm not just drawing conclusions cause i hate the ending, there are some pretty big game smacks you in face saying HEY! Shepard is becoming indoctrinated moments.

Some examples Shepards dreams he sees figured that look like oily shadows(the rachni queen mentioned songs the color fo oily shadows)

Final conversation with TIM you see oily like lines at some scenes, the whispers shepard hears in the dreams.

I could keep listing things but wrote enough already, i'm just confused did i miss something, it's like devs are trolling us or had planned to have shapard be indoctrinated then changed minds.

[Gwyphon]

Well the developers did have plans to have Shepard be controlled by the Reapers but couldn't work it in gameplay wise, or something like that.

[Andromidius]

Xilizhra wrote...

If this is a hallucination, why does any of the Catalyst's dialogue or character matter? Wouldn't it just be some kind of psychodrama where it doesn't really matter what's being said, only that Shepard resists the hallucination?

If you'd been paying attention, you'd remember why.  Because this isn't merely a hallucination.  Its a Reaper induced hallucination that's part of the indoctrination process.

Seriously, remember next time.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Gwyphon wrote...

Well the developers did have plans to
have Shepard be controlled by the Reapers but couldn't work it in
gameplay wise, or something like that.

But they did use it.

If they took away our control, the thing would have been too obvious. Instead they give you the option to go along willingly, which is exactly what it should be like.

All these people believing in the literal endings are exactly like TIM.

"I know with certainty: The Crucible will allow me to control the Reapers."

Why? Because the "collective intelligence of all Reapers" told them so.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 26 décembre 2012 - 02:31 .

[Gwyphon]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Well the developers did have plans to
have Shepard be controlled by the Reapers but couldn't work it in
gameplay wise, or something like that.

But they did use it.

If they took away our control, the thing would have been too obvious. Instead they give you the option to go along willingly, which is exactly what it should be like.

All these people believing in the literal endings are exactly like TIM.

"I know with certainty: The Crucible will allow me to control the Reapers."

Why? Because the "collective intelligence of all Reapers" told them so.

Well they did take control away in the dreams. 

[CoolioThane]

IT is so perfect, it has to be true

[BansheeOwnage]

estebanus wrote...

Hey Banshee. What did you get for christmas?

Crap! I left 1 minute before you posted that! Mostly not too interesting, but then again, I didn't ask for anything. Some shirts, chocolates, a knife, and some movies. Oh, most importantly, these

[spotlessvoid]

Banshee, please tell me you and blur have a matching set!

[spotlessvoid]

CoolioThane wrote...

IT is so perfect, it has to be true

Literal is so stupid it has to be false

[BansheeOwnage]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Banshee, please tell me you and blur have a matching set!

Ha! Not yet, but Blur was planning on getting that - or at least something like that. I also just discovered there are ME playing cards, which I will totally get as well. Each card pack has 2 Jokers!

[BansheeOwnage]

spotlessvoid wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

IT is so perfect, it has to be true

Literal is so stupid it has to be false

Well that certainly puts things into perspective doesn't it?

[spotlessvoid]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Banshee, please tell me you and blur have a matching set!

Ha! Not yet, but Blur was planning on getting that - or at least something like that. I also just discovered there are ME playing cards, which I will totally get as well. Each card pack has 2 Jokers!

2 jokers? Sarcasm overload!

[DoomsdayDevice]

I'm so jealous, I might cry, haha.

I need to get me some N7 merchandise.