80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Sure. ME2 was kill or capture.

But still, you see no strategic value in controlling VIP's of the races? They should just go on without indoctrinating people?

I imagine them studying the races as they evolve during their cycle. Indoctrinated agents would help to gather information. And in knowing even the simple basics of organic behavior and moral they would consider psychological warfare.

Oh, there's value in indoctrinating VIPs... when they're not tremendous threats to you by virtue of their very existence, on the front lines so that they can't be slowly indoctrinated and thus retain any use to you, or fighting you in what will definitely be, one way or another, the final battle of any significance.

But that gun can cut dreadnoughts in half. Yet Shepard is merely singed.

That's because it misses, but barely. Shepard's already shown the ability to dodge Reaper gunfire, she's just scripted for this dodge to not quite work as well.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 décembre 2012 - 04:55 .

[lex0r11]

estebanus wrote...

Can't you just agree to disagree and leave it at that? Your arguing isn't going anywhere. Nobody's going to be convinced that they're wrong. 

EDIT: Top! If only banshee were here...

I think it's fine as long as nobody is branded as silly.

Kind of interesting to discuss if indoctrinating Shepard is of strategic importance or not, don't you think?

Modifié par lex0r11, 26 décembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Eryri]

Xilizhra wrote...

But that gun can cut dreadnoughts in half. Yet Shepard is merely singed.

That's because it misses, but barely. Shepard's already shown the ability to dodge Reaper gunfire, she's just scripted for this dodge to not quite work as well.

However, this strains credulity even more in the EC, as Shepard stumbles to the ground and is helpless. (Harbinger even gives out what I interpret as a little sigh of satisfaction). Yet somehow Harbinger misses, despite being perfectly capable of obliterating every single other soldier approaching the beam, sometimes even several at once.

Modifié par Eryri, 26 décembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Xilizhra]

Eryri wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But that gun can cut dreadnoughts in half. Yet Shepard is merely singed.

That's because it misses, but barely. Shepard's already shown the ability to dodge Reaper gunfire, she's just scripted for this dodge to not quite work as well.

However, this strains credulity even more in the EC, as Shepard stumbles to the ground and is helpless. (Harbinger even gives out what I interpret as a little sigh of satisfaction). Yet somehow Harbinger misses, despite being perfectly capable of obliterating every single other soldier approaching the beam, sometimes even several at once.

Harbinger thought it had killed Shepard with the blast, but evidently did not. It also seemed to fail to account for Anderson, who also made it to the beam. Harbinger's accuracy is good, but not perfect.

[Eryri]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sure. ME2 was kill or capture.

But still, you see no strategic value in controlling VIP's of the races? They should just go on without indoctrinating people?

I imagine them studying the races as they evolve during their cycle. Indoctrinated agents would help to gather information. And in knowing even the simple basics of organic behavior and moral they would consider psychological warfare.

Oh, there's value in indoctrinating VIPs... when they're not tremendous threats to you by virtue of their very existence, on the front lines so that they can't be slowly indoctrinated and thus retain any use to you, or fighting you in what will definitely be, one way or another, the final battle of any significance.

Also, remember that the reapers have quite a difficult task, they have to destroy every single member of their target species, everywhere in the entire galaxy, in order to ensure the next cycle knows nothing about them. Imagine how difficult that must be, given how vast the galaxy is. Especially if a group decides to hole up on some planet with a pre-spaceflight civilisation and adopt a primitive existence in the woods so that signals from their technology won't give them away. 

The only way to ferret out such groups, would be using sleeper agents from within.

[Xilizhra]

The only way to ferret out such groups, would be using sleeper agents from within.

Which, again, is clearly not what's happening here, because that only works with slow indoctrination, and if IT is true, that's obviously not what's happening because of how not-indoctrinated Shepard acts before, and how quickly the hallucinations come on. The most they could do is turn Shepard into a frothing berserker who'd get shot down rather fast.

[Eryri]

Xilizhra wrote...

Harbinger thought it had killed Shepard with the blast, but evidently did not. It also seemed to fail to account for Anderson, who also made it to the beam. Harbinger's accuracy is good, but not perfect.

I'm afraid I find that quite hard to swallow. The Reapers are depicted as insanely powerful entities (at least until we meet the catalyst). It seems very unlikely that Harbinger could hit multiple moving targets with ease, yet fail to hit a prostrate Shepard. Additionally, his beam is a jet of molten metal moving at nearly the speed of light. Harbinger wouldn't even have to be pin-point accurate to kill Shepard, the heat from a near miss should roast him alive.

Also, remember that if this is a hallucination, and Shepard is still on Earth, we don't know if Anderson did in fact make it to the Citadel.

[lex0r11]

Both is possible. This could be the reapers choosing the lesser evil because they have no more time and just zap Shepard. And we don't know everything about the process of indoctrination other tahn what is in the codex.

We don't know when it was induced. If it was in Arrival (Shepard was unconscious for more than a day) or it happened later. We know that quick indoctrination turns the victim into mush after a short time, so no use as a agent. We don't know what critical injuries do to someone who is in the process of being indoctrinated (this process might take months).

Shock is known to intensify or trigger psychological conditions that were not "in effect" yet. And Shepard had something with all those dreams, be it indoctrination or something else. But these were very odd.

Modifié par lex0r11, 26 décembre 2012 - 05:19 .

[Eryri]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only way to ferret out such groups, would be using sleeper agents from within.

Which, again, is clearly not what's happening here, because that only works with slow indoctrination, and if IT is true, that's obviously not what's happening because of how not-indoctrinated Shepard acts before, and how quickly the hallucinations come on. The most they could do is turn Shepard into a frothing berserker who'd get shot down rather fast.

Perhaps. Maybe Harbinger panicked as it looked like Shepard may actually be a real threat, and turned the indoctrination dial up to 11. Maybe Shepard has been being slowly indoctrinated by his exposure to Reapers and their artifacts. His indoctrination has just been bubbling away under his conscious awareness, beneath even the detection threshold of the Prothean VI's, and this is just the final, tiny little nudge that brings on the full blown hallucination. This hallucination would be the crunch point, the decision that decides the fate of Shepard's soul.

We don't know, but I think there's enough ambiguity and unanswered questions to be very sceptical of everything that happens, even as far back as the Mako crash.

Edit: What Lexor said - rather more concisely than me.

Modifié par Eryri, 26 décembre 2012 - 05:23 .

[AresKeith]

I can see indoctrinating Shepard as a strategic importance to the Reapers

[Xilizhra]

I'm afraid I find that quite hard to swallow. The Reapers are depicted as insanely powerful entities (at least until we meet the catalyst). It seems very unlikely that Harbinger could hit multiple moving targets with ease, yet fail to hit a prostrate Shepard. Additionally, his beam is a jet of molten metal moving at nearly the speed of light. Harbinger wouldn't even have to be pin-point accurate to kill Shepard, the heat from a near miss should roast him alive.

That's because Harbinger didn't aim at a prostrate Shepard, only at a moving one and assumed that Shepard was dead. And the near-miss wasn't near enough of a miss to kill Shepard, just do a lot of damage.

Perhaps. Maybe Harbinger panicked as it looked like Shepard may actually be a real threat, and turned the indoctrination dial up to 11. Maybe Shepard has been being slowly indoctrinated by his exposure to Reapers and their artifacts. His indoctrination has just been bubbling away under his conscious awareness, beneath even the detection threshold of the Prothean VI's, and this is just the final, tiny little nudge that brings on the full blown hallucination. This hallucination would be the crunch point, the decision that decides the fate of Shepard's soul.

That... doesn't really work. It doesn't match any other variety of indoctrination we've seen in the game, and Shepard hasn't been taking any subtle actions to help the Reapers at all, or coming to favor any kind of accommodation, or anything of the sort. We can see a sort of slow process of indoctrination with TIM, and Shepard displays none of this. Moreover, Vendetta, who can sense indoctrinated people, never labels Shepard has being indoctrinated (this ability is shared by Vigil), and a tiny nudge would never have such power alone.

[Andromidius]

lex0r11 wrote...

Both is possible. This could be the reapers choosing the lesser evil because they have no more time and just zap Shepard.

No more time?  Time is on their side.  They are easily defeating the entire allied fleet, and are slaughtering Hammer on the surface.  The entire offensive is to steal time off the Reapers, but the Reapers have all the time in the world.

Not to mention there's more a case for the Reapers, you know, defending their one weak point.  Harbinger dropping down, killing everyone bar Shepard and Anderson, then retreating is just a silly waste of time.

The whole scene is fabricated.  We see soldiers who get hit by Harbinger's beam turn to ash.  So why are there wounded all over the place once Shepard gets up?  To emotionally break Shepard, to have soldiers crying out for help but you're unable to do anything about it.

And since when have the Reapers ever picked the lesser evil?  They seem to delight in picking the most offensive and perverse methods possible!

[Andromidius]

AresKeith wrote...

I can see indoctrinating Shepard as a strategic importance to the Reapers

Indeed.  Perhaps moreso then that.  There's some musing that for a Reaper construct to be viable it needs a 'host' personality to dominate all the other minds within it. 

Hense maybe why the Reapers took so long with the Protheans, as they searched for one capable of being that host, before finally scrapping the plan and instead turning the Protheans into slave drones that are designed to suffer as they serve them.  The Collectors failed the Reapers, and they are being punished for it.

The Reapers want Shepard.  This is obvious, as Harbinger itself declared many times that it desires Shepard and will possess Shepard's mind eventually.

[Xilizhra]

Not to mention there's more a case for the Reapers, you know, defending their one weak point. Harbinger dropping down, killing everyone bar Shepard and Anderson, then retreating is just a silly waste of time.

Again, it didn't think that anyone was alive. Or at least that anyone was a danger.

The whole scene is fabricated. We see soldiers who get hit by Harbinger's beam turn to ash. So why are there wounded all over the place once Shepard gets up? To emotionally break Shepard, to have soldiers crying out for help but you're unable to do anything about it.

Or... because those beams aren't precision weapons, because Shepard wasn't the last person to go on that charge, and because not everyone would necessarily be incinerated immediately.

The Reapers want Shepard. This is obvious, as Harbinger itself declared many times that it desires Shepard and will possess Shepard's mind eventually.

It desires Shepard's body... if possible. Shepard's death is the higher priority.

[Andromidius]

Okay, Reapers are stupid. Happy now?

Because essentially that's what you're saying. Reapers are stupid and incompetant.

Seriously, last time I ever reply to you. All good will is gone.

[clarkusdarkus]

Cant be bothered to read through over 2k posts, but considering the other threads got locked through bickering then try not get this one the same fate as there is and always will be awesome ideas/feedback for if bioware gave in and did such an IT dlc.... As it would make me buy ME3 again and do that 2nd playthrough....

[Xilizhra]

Andromidius wrote...

Okay, Reapers are stupid. Happy now?

Because essentially that's what you're saying. Reapers are stupid and incompetant.

Seriously, last time I ever reply to you. All good will is gone.

Well, they're not exactly geniuses. They've never really needed to be; a combination of brute force and a repeating cycle did the work for them.

In fact, their not being all that smart is the main reason we stand any chance against them at all; if they matched our intelligence, their numerical and technological advances would be our inevitable doom.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 décembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[demersel]

magnetite wrote...

Eryri wrote...
Bioware are waiting for the anger to subside, so the IT reveal DLC would seem more of semi-sequel, like BG Throne of Bhaal, than a cynical "Asura's Wrath" type move.

Some people are still angry over this, I mean not just a little bit, they are furious.

Some wounds never heal though. These people will be scarred for life.

The ability to make people care is the greatest achivement any artist can ever aspire.

[Smeffects]

Xilizhra wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Okay, Reapers are stupid. Happy now?

Because essentially that's what you're saying. Reapers are stupid and incompetant.

Seriously, last time I ever reply to you. All good will is gone.

Well, they're not exactly geniuses. They've never really needed to be; a combination of brute force and a repeating cycle did the work for them.

In fact, their not being all that smart is the main reason we stand any chance against them at all; if they matched our intelligence, their numerical and technological advances would be our inevitable doom.

I have to agree with this Reapers often show huge lack of logic. Even Sovereign in ME1 makes stupid moves all over the place.

-At the start of the game, he let geth protect charges to destroy the artifact? He has a giant gun that can pulverise the whole docking area while he is flying away? Hello? He looks like a spaceship, no one know he is a reaper, why not use his gun and destroy that base and artifact once saren was back on board. It would have been destroyed before Shepard even got near.

-At the very end of the game, Shepard has defeated saren and opened the citadel doors. Shepard becomes a non factor as the remaning fight is a spacefight. Sovereign is shown absolutly destroying the entire turian/human fleet. It shows its impossible for current weapons to even damage him while his shields are up. Sovereign decide to fight shepard on foot as well and risk lose his shields in a battle he is winning? Why not wait and deal with the fleet and then once its cleared deal with Shepard, the arms are already opened nothing worse can happen then this.

The answer is simple, in the history of every story ever made up, the good guy wins so often and the bad guy is always shown to have supperior forces, technology, magic, whatever you want. But is always shown as ridiculously stupid or making huge mistakes and losing to the good side. Reapers are the bad guys, they have to do stupid things to lose and they do lose.

Modifié par Smeffects, 26 décembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[demersel]

magnetite wrote...

demersel wrote...
The ability to make people care is the greatest achivement any artist can ever aspire.

I won't go into details, but they are upset because of this, aside from the ending. Even though I tried to explain to them that the link I posted is just a natural thing that happens with businesses.

Way I see it though a big company helping out a smaller one can be a good thing, but some don't see it that way.

I agree. If anything - i think that the IT is possible if only for the fact that they have EA. 
Because EA can take it. EA aready has nothing to loose reputation wise from this. EA is the honey badger of gaming business - they just don't give a damn. . And the best thing about it - they can really take this risk and pull it off.  
If they fail - they lose nothing. 
If the succede - they will gain a boost to their reputation, as a company that supports creativity. And make a lot of money while at it. 

[CoolioThane]

estebanus wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Golly. IT must be false because more people don't believe in it (whether or not that be due to lack of knowledge about it, or to an ignorance and love of whining/complaining about anything).

Those open to it but still choose to believe literal make no sense to me. Literally I'm at a loss for words.

What does it matter if people like me make no sense to you? Just respect our opinion. 

That kind of thinking alienates people otherwise open to it. Simply because they're open-minded but choose not to believe in it doesn't mean that somethings wrong with them, and telling them that they make no sense will not help in the least.

As a matter of fact, believing that people muast either believe in the IT or be against it is rather close-minded.

Oh, no. I do respect your opinion, just can't understand it myself. I'm not trying to say you're either for or against; just trying to say I understand people who hate the IT, and those who do not know about the IT, but I can't get those in the middle. I'm not being rude, I'm just unable to understand why! Not having a go; on the contrary, I'm interested to know! 

[MegumiAzusa]

As Harbinger fires 3 shots that don't hit while every shot gets closer it shows it has no idea how much stress Sheps armor and body can handle.
Arrival also shows they miscalculated Sheps resistance to whatever they gave her as sedative.
This all shows if in an controlled environment Sheps body can be preserved they try to do that.
The whole beam run scene just screams limited resources, especially with the EC, that you could just handwave all inconsistencies away.
Just a few examples for the extraction: we suddenly have tons of other soldiers, fighting between Alliance and Reaper forces, explosions, etc while the run itself had none of that. Also you can hear Harbinger still shooting, but it doesn't draw the laser.

In conclusion: it takes less to explain why the setting feels unreal just by looking at it literally. It can even explain Harby missing Shep on purpose.