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[estebanus]

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

[Rifneno]

estebanus wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

estebanus wrote...

The protheans had already lost when the war started. It was essentially just a hunt for the reapers by then. 

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Because this isn't fiction, and miracle comebacks never happen.

No, I'm not talking fiction. I'm talking conventional logic. If you're going to invoke fiction, I might as well say that space magic can happen.

facepalm.jpg

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

IT - at least 50% of the fleet is already dead for a failed plan and the protagonist dead or incapacitated without managing to do anything.

Which is why IT is depressing...

You've already lost. The only thing that may be secured is survival.

Which is exactly the first thing you and everyone is told BY Shepard in the very beginning of the game.

That's why there would be no feeling of having achieved something if the outcome is much worse then what we had at first. There is absolutely no glimmer of hope, at the beginning we at least had Shepard and her ability to make the impossible possible. That's quite a difference.

You realize that not every version of IT says the Crucible is a trap, right? We still havent used it in IT. Once we wake up, theres nothing stopping us from doing so.

I'm not talking about any trap. I'm talking about Sheps inability to go up to the Citadel. If Shep lies in the London rubble how is she supposed to reach the beam? Harbinger should still be there (at least that's one thing said over and over as pro IT that Harby wouldn't just leave), and there should be a huge amount of Reaper troops, and Shep has to find and get to the controls to open the arms. How is that more plausible then what we got?
The only form of IT that would not completely destroy hope would be if Shep was already on the Citadel and opened the arms and the Crucible fired and the Guardian is the last try to subvert Shep and break her before they get blown to hell.

Except we have no idea under IT what kind of condition Shepard is in. We only know he is waking up after beeing knocked down, possibly knocked out by...something. It could be Harbingers beam or it could be the mysterious utterly unexplained sudden cut to black crash of the Mako (or whatever they are called) we were riding in.

Shepard may primarily be knocked out and once we repel the Reapers in his mind he is ready to get up again.

Or if Shepard is truly out of the fight we still have a team of the most skilled people the galaxy has ever seen who could carry on the fight and possibly even win it. Shepard may be the protaganist, but no one says he has to be the one to push every button along the way.

More than a few ideas of how it ends under IT actually present the idea of Shepard dying and his team finishing the battle. This could be situations like high EMS where you fail the choice, but Shepard is stopped Saren style. Even if dead everything he did to ready the galaxy could be enough to push through in the final moment.

In fact i support Shepard dying in all but the most extremely prepared of situations. The situations where only those who truly completed it all sees their Shepard walk out on the other side. Kinda like the Breath scene.

But as for how to win, there has been several ideas spread throughout the thread. I personally beleive the Crucible is a trap, but it is also a source of massive energy and we just need to point the energy at something or use its rseoruces for something else.

Among other things it always bothered me that the Javelin Missile Launchers War Asset for the fleets was located under the Crucible though it ha snothing to do with it.

But then I realized Javelin Missiles work by releasing dark enrrgy detonations in precisely timed brusts which amplify the effect between missiles, kinda like the Crucible also handles Dark Energy calculations as part of its energy.

Now if every single ship in the fleet has Javelin Missiles (even the Dreadnoughst despite javelins beeing a close range weapon, a place Dreadnoughts really shouldnt be) what would happen if something was able to time the detonation of a few thousand of those at once? You like linking the missiles up to the Crucible calculations kinda like we linked the Quarian fleet weapons to the target painter.

I am not saying such a volley would win us the battle, but the amplified explosions might turn out to be a devatstating pucnh to the Reapers.

And that is just one idea.

Another possibility and more grim is to overload the Citadel core and take out everything in the Earth system Arrival. Would not win us the war, but would give later cycles a much better chance.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Or that we can turn the energy of the Crucible against the Reapers even if it is a trap. No matter what we know the Crucible generates immense amounts of energy and no one says we have to use that for its intended pupose if we can find another way to harness it.

[dorktainian]

lets face it. as it stands at the moment Bioware are happy with the ending to their game. They've said it many times. they are happy with it.

Yes. I know the IT is a much better explanation of what actually was going on. Yes I know I have my own theories on what really went on. Yes this thread can go on for another 1000 pages without getting any answers off Bioware. I get the feeling they dont give a smeg.

I do hope none of you lose hope. At the end of the day thats really all we're holding on to. no matter if we're IT supporters, Refusal Supporters or whatever.

Keep the faith.

[MegumiAzusa]

In Leviathan Shep isn't even able to get from the Atlas to the Shuttle without help after her mind being attacked. And you think that and wounds which we clearly see would be less painful?

[demersel]

Let's make a thought-experiment.
Imagine you are Shepard.
Imagine that you wake up in the rubble in london with the buttle going on everywhere around you. The beam is turned off. What do you do? Do you shoot yourself in the head with your gun cause, "oh damn that magical reaper beam that you know nothing about is not not working, and hence you can't use it to go to the citadel (which is a strange thing to assume a migical reaper beam would do in the first place, but OK)?
Really? You'll really go, "oh, damn, now i can't go jump into magical reaper beam, that will bring me into the citadel two steps from the very console i need to open it, dock the crucible and end this thing in like five minutes. If i can't end this thing in five minutes - it is hopeless. Might as well shoot myself, out of shame before all the people that i brought here for the reapers to slaughter, and who i failed, by failing to jump into some magical reaper beam." Really? That is your reaction?

Or would you rather think about A REAL and realible way to get into the citadel, once the quick and easy path is out of the quastion? There are millions of people and geth and creatures of all sorts fighting the reapers. each of them does their part. Hell, you don't know, they might even take them down all by themself with absolutely NO help from you. After all you ARE STILL ALIVE, while being in the middle of reaper occupied London, after blind-charging HARBINGER on FOOT - there must be a reason for it.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

In Leviathan Shep isn't even able to get from the Atlas to the Shuttle without help after her mind being attacked. And you think that and wounds which we clearly see would be less painful?

No, but we dont know how quickly Shepard recovered after the meeting with Leviathan either. It could have been hours or it could have been minutes before he was back on his feet.

Also unlike what happened in Leviathan under IT Shepard either succumbs or pushes the Reapers back, he isent simply released like in Leviathan.

[estebanus]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Or that we can turn the energy of the Crucible against the Reapers even if it is a trap. No matter what we know the Crucible generates immense amounts of energy and no one says we have to use that for its intended pupose if we can find another way to harness it.

Yes, but no one knows how to use it. If you don't know what it does, how can you reprogram it?

[demersel]

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Says who? Don't go losing a fight without thowing even a single punch. 

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

demersel wrote...

Let's make a thought-experiment.
Imagine you are Shepard.
Imagine that you wake up in the rubble in london with the buttle going on everywhere around you. The beam is turned off. What do you do? Do you shoot yourself in the head with your gun cause, "oh damn that magical reaper beam that you know nothing about is not not working, and hence you can't use it to go to the citadel (which is a strange thing to assume a migical reaper beam would do in the first place, but OK)?
Really? You'll really go, "oh, damn, now i can't go jump into magical reaper beam, that will bring me into the citadel two steps from the very console i need to open it, dock the crucible and end this thing in like five minutes. If i can't end this thing in five minutes - it is hopeless. Might as well shoot myself, out of shame before all the people that i brought here for the reapers to slaughter, and who i failed, by failing to jump into some magical reaper beam." Really? That is your reaction?

Or would you rather think about A REAL and realible way to get into the citadel, once the quick and easy path is out of the quastion? There are millions of people and geth and creatures of all sorts fighting the reapers. each of them does their part. Hell, you don't know, they might even take them down all by themself with absolutely NO help from you. After all you ARE STILL ALIVE, while being in the middle of reaper occupied London, after blind-charging HARBINGER on FOOT - there must be a reason for it.

And regarding getting to the Citadel...

We still have a bunch of Citadel War Assets which are never explained how they factor in the final battle as for all we now anyone related to those assets are dead. We also have the mysterious fact that the Relays have not been shut down despite the Reapers taking the Citadel...

Is it impossible to consider that those might be connected? That someone on the Citadel is still fighting and giving us a chance by keeping the Reapers from shutting down the Relay network?

[estebanus]

demersel wrote...

Let's make a thought-experiment.
Imagine you are Shepard.
Imagine that you wake up in the rubble in london with the buttle going on everywhere around you. The beam is turned off. What do you do? Do you shoot yourself in the head with your gun cause, "oh damn that magical reaper beam that you know nothing about is not not working, and hence you can't use it to go to the citadel (which is a strange thing to assume a migical reaper beam would do in the first place, but OK)?
Really? You'll really go, "oh, damn, now i can't go jump into magical reaper beam, that will bring me into the citadel two steps from the very console i need to open it, dock the crucible and end this thing in like five minutes. If i can't end this thing in five minutes - it is hopeless. Might as well shoot myself, out of shame before all the people that i brought here for the reapers to slaughter, and who i failed, by failing to jump into some magical reaper beam." Really? That is your reaction?

Or would you rather think about A REAL and realible way to get into the citadel, once the quick and easy path is out of the quastion? There are millions of people and geth and creatures of all sorts fighting the reapers. each of them does their part. Hell, you don't know, they might even take them down all by themself with absolutely NO help from you. After all you ARE STILL ALIVE, while being in the middle of reaper occupied London, after blind-charging HARBINGER on FOOT - there must be a reason for it.

What I'd do is to contact Hackett and ask him what to do now. We don't know of any other way to board the Citadel. Hackett is closest to it. If he can find a way, he can do it. 

What you're doing is that you're dealing in totals. You're saying that either you win, or you commit suicide. But if there's no other way to win this war, what do you do? That's right, you fight until the end. If you can't defeat the reapers, then the next cycle will. That's what I'd focus on if no hope was left.

[TJBartlemus]

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Have you guys ever had the thought that there may be a backup plan? Any good strategist knows not to blindly hope for Plan A to go and work. It would be foolish to only have the Crucible. 

[estebanus]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

In Leviathan Shep isn't even able to get from the Atlas to the Shuttle without help after her mind being attacked. And you think that and wounds which we clearly see would be less painful?

No, but we dont know how quickly Shepard recovered after the meeting with Leviathan either. It could have been hours or it could have been minutes before he was back on his feet.

Also unlike what happened in Leviathan under IT Shepard either succumbs or pushes the Reapers back, he isent simply released like in Leviathan.

It would be interesting that, depending on your citadel war assets, they could possibly open the arms for you.

[demersel]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Another possibility and more grim is to overload the Citadel core and take out everything in the Earth system Arrival. Would not win us the war, but would give later cycles a much better chance.

Actually yes If crucible doesn't work - go all Arrival with the charon mass realy and take out the entire system. In fact if the crucible doesn't work - you just retreat as much of the fleet as possible and destroy the system with all the reapers inside - even if it doesn't kill all of them - they will be cut off from the rest of the network at least for some time. And then we can start the dirty war - by taking out the relays in the systems with the most concentration of the reapers. Ideally the whole network NEEDS to be taken down in order to beat the reapers. 

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

estebanus wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Or that we can turn the energy of the Crucible against the Reapers even if it is a trap. No matter what we know the Crucible generates immense amounts of energy and no one says we have to use that for its intended pupose if we can find another way to harness it.

Yes, but no one knows how to use it. If you don't know what it does, how can you reprogram it?

We know what it does, it generates a bloody lot of energy, the question has always been what that energy was for and how we harness it, aka the Catalyst.

But even if we dont harness the energy, it might still teach us something which can be of use of itself be of use if its systems are configured for a different yet similar task. Like what I suggested above with the Javelins.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 26 décembre 2012 - 08:22 .

[AresKeith]

estebanus wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

In Leviathan Shep isn't even able to get from the Atlas to the Shuttle without help after her mind being attacked. And you think that and wounds which we clearly see would be less painful?

No, but we dont know how quickly Shepard recovered after the meeting with Leviathan either. It could have been hours or it could have been minutes before he was back on his feet.

Also unlike what happened in Leviathan under IT Shepard either succumbs or pushes the Reapers back, he isent simply released like in Leviathan.

It would be interesting that, depending on your citadel war assets, they could possibly open the arms for you.

It would make them more useful than they are now, Crap lol

[estebanus]

TJBartlemus wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Have you guys ever had the thought that there may be a backup plan? Any good strategist knows not to blindly hope for Plan A to go and work. It would be foolish to only have the Crucible. 

Yeah, except that both Hackett and Anderson said that that's the only plan they've got. They literally said that right before the battle of Earth. They literally say that the crucible is the only plan they have. 

Shall I find a video for you?

[TJBartlemus]

demersel wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Another possibility and more grim is to overload the Citadel core and take out everything in the Earth system Arrival. Would not win us the war, but would give later cycles a much better chance.

Actually yes If crucible doesn't work - go all Arrival with the charon mass realy and take out the entire system. In fact if the crucible doesn't work - you just retreat as much of the fleet as possible and destroy the system with all the reapers inside - even if it doesn't kill all of them - they will be cut off from the rest of the network at least for some time. And then we can start the dirty war - by taking out the relays in the systems with the most concentration of the reapers. Ideally the whole network NEEDS to be taken down in order to beat the reapers. 

So effectively the Prothean strategy of sacrificing planets to recoup but taken a step further. Mixed in with a little bit of suicide on the side.

[dorktainian]

can i throw in a bone about the crudible. i believe it was flagged in the first game. after Shep got zapped by the prothean beacon, shep and anderson are having a conversation on what they should tell the council, and anderson says to shep (something along the lines of) ''who knows what information was housed on that thing, blueprints or even a ANCIENT WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION'' (cant remember word for word)

[MegumiAzusa]

TJBartlemus wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Have you guys ever had the thought that there may be a backup plan? Any good strategist knows not to blindly hope for Plan A to go and work. It would be foolish to only have the Crucible.

If there was one Shep and the player would know about it.

[estebanus]

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Says who? Don't go losing a fight without thowing even a single punch. 

Says Hackett and many other people throughout the whole game. Oh, and logic dictates this as well.
Look, I'm not saying that people should go down without resistance. I'm saying that if the war can't be won, they should focus on helping the next cycle.

[TJBartlemus]

estebanus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Have you guys ever had the thought that there may be a backup plan? Any good strategist knows not to blindly hope for Plan A to go and work. It would be foolish to only have the Crucible. 

Yeah, except that both Hackett and Anderson said that that's the only plan they've got. They literally said that right before the battle of Earth. They literally say that the crucible is the only plan they have. 

Shall I find a video for you?

You realize they can lie right? You really think they would give 100% all their information to Shepard on a ship rigged with an unknown number of spy devices from Cerberus? To tell secrets on a ship that is the focus of all Reaper and Cerberus attention would be even more stupid. If there was a backup plan, there would be no speak of it to anyone. 

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Another possibility and more grim is to overload the Citadel core and take out everything in the Earth system Arrival. Would not win us the war, but would give later cycles a much better chance.

Actually yes If crucible doesn't work - go all Arrival with the charon mass realy and take out the entire system. In fact if the crucible doesn't work - you just retreat as much of the fleet as possible and destroy the system with all the reapers inside - even if it doesn't kill all of them - they will be cut off from the rest of the network at least for some time. And then we can start the dirty war - by taking out the relays in the systems with the most concentration of the reapers. Ideally the whole network NEEDS to be taken down in order to beat the reapers.

And where do we take the asteroid with the strapped on engines from?

[estebanus]

demersel wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Another possibility and more grim is to overload the Citadel core and take out everything in the Earth system Arrival. Would not win us the war, but would give later cycles a much better chance.

Actually yes If crucible doesn't work - go all Arrival with the charon mass realy and take out the entire system. In fact if the crucible doesn't work - you just retreat as much of the fleet as possible and destroy the system with all the reapers inside - even if it doesn't kill all of them - they will be cut off from the rest of the network at least for some time. And then we can start the dirty war - by taking out the relays in the systems with the most concentration of the reapers. Ideally the whole network NEEDS to be taken down in order to beat the reapers. 

And what will you slam into the charon relay, hmm?  And when will they have the time to do so? 

The fact is that there is no time. A battle is raging just a little bit away, and everyone is focused on battling the reapers. No one will think about it until it's too late. And when that happens, the reapers will easily secure the system.

Modifié par estebanus, 26 décembre 2012 - 08:30 .