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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#73476
demersel

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estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

Let's make a thought-experiment.
Imagine you are Shepard.
Imagine that you wake up in the rubble in london with the buttle going on everywhere around you. The beam is turned off. What do you do? Do you shoot yourself in the head with your gun cause, "oh damn that magical reaper beam that you know nothing about is not not working, and hence you can't use it to go to the citadel (which is a strange thing to assume a migical reaper beam would do in the first place, but OK)?
Really? You'll really go, "oh, damn, now i can't go jump into magical reaper beam, that will bring me into the citadel two steps from the very console i need to open it, dock the crucible and end this thing in like five minutes. If i can't end this thing in five minutes - it is hopeless. Might as well shoot myself, out of shame before all the people that i brought here for the reapers to slaughter, and who i failed, by failing to jump into some magical reaper beam." Really? That is your reaction?

Or would you rather think about A REAL and realible way to get into the citadel, once the quick and easy path is out of the quastion? There are millions of people and geth and creatures of all sorts fighting the reapers. each of them does their part. Hell, you don't know, they might even take them down all by themself with absolutely NO help from you. After all you ARE STILL ALIVE, while being in the middle of reaper occupied London, after blind-charging HARBINGER on FOOT - there must be a reason for it.

What I'd do is to contact Hackett and ask him what to do now. We don't know of any other way to board the Citadel. Hackett is closest to it. If he can find a way, he can do it. 

What you're doing is that you're dealing in totals. You're saying that either you win, or you commit suicide. But if there's no other way to win this war, what do you do? That's right, you fight until the end. If you can't defeat the reapers, then the next cycle will. That's what I'd focus on if no hope was left.


No. It is you who are dealing in totals - You say either we use the crucible and win - or we loose and as good as dead already. That is wrong. You lost the hope even before entering the fight. If crucible doesn't work - you just continue to fight, or to be more precise - you actually START to fight. You can't fight when you're dead. In control, synthesis and refuse - you are dead. The war might be getting won by the allied fleet - you can't know that. - all you know is what the reapers show and tell you. You could be winning the battle for earth and not know it - and get indoctrinated or killed - that way you'd be dead and won't be any help to anyone, regardless of the situation - YOU would have not survived the beam run and died pointlessly, just as nyreen did( for example), except even she menaged to save like five people. You would just run towards the reaper happily, and die, gidding lige an idiot, from brain damage, while whatching pretty pictures, provided by the Reapers Bros tm. 

#73477
TJBartlemus

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Have you guys ever had the thought that there may be a backup plan? Any good strategist knows not to blindly hope for Plan A to go and work. It would be foolish to only have the Crucible.

If there was one Shep and the player would know about it.


Why? Shepard is only a soldier. A very important/successful soldier but he is no high ranking official. He/She is also still a risk of being a double agent for Cerberus. Alliance Command wouldn't like it too much for Shepard to know ALL of their plans. PS. Story wise it would be a great twist.

#73478
estebanus

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TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.

Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.

Have you guys ever had the thought that there may be a backup plan? Any good strategist knows not to blindly hope for Plan A to go and work. It would be foolish to only have the Crucible.

If there was one Shep and the player would know about it.


Why? Shepard is only a soldier. A very important/successful soldier but he is no high ranking official. He/She is also still a risk of being a double agent for Cerberus. Alliance Command wouldn't like it too much for Shepard to know ALL of their plans. PS. Story wise it would be a great twist.

Oh? But they let Shepard take command of all the allied fleets and lead them into battle?

#73479
MegumiAzusa

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TJBartlemus wrote...

estebanus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

If the battle of Earth is lost, the crucible turns out to be a trap, then life is ddoomed. The largest fleet ever assembled would be broken. The remains wouldn't even prove to be much of a challenge for the reapers. It'd be a huge clean up.


Exactly. We destroy them, or they destroy us. It is All in. You can't fight when you're dead. In control synthesis and refuse - you are dead. 

You're not making any sense. The fleet would be destroyed even if Shepard would beat indoctrination. The only way to beat the reapers is if the crucible turns out to be no trap.


Have you guys ever had the thought that there may be a backup plan? Any good strategist knows not to blindly hope for Plan A to go and work. It would be foolish to only have the Crucible. 

Yeah, except that both Hackett and Anderson said that that's the only plan they've got. They literally said that right before the battle of Earth. They literally say that the crucible is the only plan they have. 

Shall I find a video for you?


You realize they can lie right? You really think they would give 100% all their information to Shepard on a ship rigged with an unknown number of spy devices from Cerberus? To tell secrets on a ship that is the focus of all Reaper and Cerberus attention would be even more stupid. If there was a backup plan, there would be no speak of it to anyone.

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.

#73480
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Oh and one last thing regading Shepard in the rubble before I leave again.

If the Reapers are Indoctrinating Shepard they would not want to incapitate him more than necesary to facilitiate the final part of the process. They would want him to be able to get back up the moment he is broken, ready to start stapping his former allies in the back.

Wouldnt really matter if Shepard spend 3 days in the infirmary out cold.

#73481
demersel

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estebanus wrote...
]And what will you slam into the charon relay, hmm?  And when will they have the time to do so?


Well you had plenty of time and opportunity to dock the slow, fragile crucible to the sitadel. How is this even possible? 


At any rate - you can slumm anything into the sharon relay. Sol is full of asteroids, and by the way, it is also pretty big. so it doesn't only limit to earth and suburbs. You could slam anything into it, just take your pick. Hell, you could even slup IT into something instead. It is not that hard. You just need to want to do it.

#73482
demersel

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.


Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually. 

#73483
TJBartlemus

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estebanus wrote...
Oh? But they let Shepard take command of all the allied fleets and lead them into battle?


He's a symbol. He is the symbol of all the hope organics have for survival. Besides other than leading them in, he really didn't do much of anything. It's all politics. 

#73484
dorktainian

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demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...
]And what will you slam into the charon relay, hmm?  And when will they have the time to do so?


Well you had plenty of time and opportunity to dock the slow, fragile crucible to the sitadel. How is this even possible? 

the reapers wanted it docked.

#73485
demersel

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dorktainian wrote...
]the reapers wanted it docked.


The wizard did it. )))

Modifié par demersel, 26 décembre 2012 - 08:39 .


#73486
Rifneno

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demersel wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

the reapers wanted it docked.


The wizard did it. )))


Damnit, Anders!

Modifié par Rifneno, 26 décembre 2012 - 08:39 .


#73487
estebanus

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demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...
]And what will you slam into the charon relay, hmm?  And when will they have the time to do so?


Well you had plenty of time and opportunity to dock the slow, fragile crucible to the sitadel. How is this even possible? 


At any rate - you can slumm anything into the sharon relay. Sol is full of asteroids, and by the way, it is also pretty big. so it doesn't only limit to earth and suburbs. You could slam anything into it, just take your pick. Hell, you could even slup IT into something instead. It is not that hard. You just need to want to do it.


Yeah, Even though we have seen first hand that the only thing that can destroy it is a huge asteroid twice the size of that relay. Not only that, but you have to build a base on the asteroid (all in the middle of a battle), get people to man it, prepare it all, and first then can you do anything. And the reapers would most certainly realize that they'd be up to something. 

The reapers couldn't stop the crucible from docking because almost all of the entire fleets were right there, defending it. At this point, the crucible would have already docked, it turned out not to work, and dozens, if not hundreds of ship would've been lost in the process.

Modifié par estebanus, 26 décembre 2012 - 08:42 .


#73488
MegumiAzusa

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demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.

Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually.

So Anderson is working for Cerberus or indoctrinated? Makes sense... not.

#73489
demersel

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Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

the reapers wanted it docked.


The wizard did it. )))


Damnit, Anders!


Yeah, he's a ****. (and i don't mean his sexual orientation)

#73490
Xilizhra

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Oh and one last thing regading Shepard in the rubble before I leave again.

If the Reapers are Indoctrinating Shepard they would not want to incapitate him more than necesary to facilitiate the final part of the process. They would want him to be able to get back up the moment he is broken, ready to start stapping his former allies in the back.

Wouldnt really matter if Shepard spend 3 days in the infirmary out cold.

Sooo... why is Shepard not imprisoned aboard Harbinger right now, ready to be deployed? Why leave her lying in London's rubble... where any number of stray weapons might obliterate her, if keeping her around was somehow important?

#73491
bip78

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Rifneno wrote...

bip78 wrote...

2938 pages/posts - are we anywhere closer to a final answer?


The final answer can only be given by BW.


Come on BW - how about making 2013 an awesome ME year!

#73492
Codename_Code

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I think the most fantastic thing about mass effect is the magnificent enemy. The reapers are not killers, are farmers, they farm intelligence and excellence to get stronger themselves, and they don't do this by just shooting lasers pew pew, they do this trough this terrible, fearful, omniscient process called indoctrination. Indoctrination is all over mass effect, more than the reapers themselves, and is a real enemy in our real lifes used by everybody who wants to screw us to gain power, indoctrination is the real evil.

Being indoctrination so important, bioware MUST have planned Shepard to fight indoctrination directly and by this I mean the famous quote " We wanted players to fight something familiar in the end, not some videogamey boss". The clues they left there are like indoctrination, very subtle.

I have this interpretation myself where the war really was impossible, shepard cant win, the real end here is that everybody gets killed, but at least shepard kept her mind, she won her personal mind battle, and bioware execute it in a way that makes you think everybody is safe and happy, when the reality is really dire but expected...

But godamn it, I want shepard to wake up and I want to see the galaxy together destroying the reapers in epic literal scene, we all want. make it happen bioware.

#73493
Rifneno

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demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

the reapers wanted it docked.


The wizard did it. )))


Damnit, Anders!


Yeah, he's a ****. (and i don't mean his sexual orientation)


But he picked Destroy in the end.  That's all that matters.  <3 Anders!

#73494
estebanus

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demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.


Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually. 

You're not making the situation on Earth look any better by saying that one of the leading commanders has been indoctrinated.

#73495
Eryri

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estebanus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Have you guys ever had the thought that there may be a backup plan? Any good strategist knows not to blindly hope for Plan A to go and work. It would be foolish to only have the Crucible.

If there was one Shep and the player would know about it.


Why? Shepard is only a soldier. A very important/successful soldier but he is no high ranking official. He/She is also still a risk of being a double agent for Cerberus. Alliance Command wouldn't like it too much for Shepard to know ALL of their plans. PS. Story wise it would be a great twist.

Oh? But they let Shepard take command of all the allied fleets and lead them into battle?


I could be mis-remembering, but I don't think Shepard was in total command of the fleet, Hackett was. As such it would only be sensible for him not to reveal every detail of their plans to Shepard, who was about to enter occupied territory, where he could be captured and interrogated.

Also, the allied fleet is still divided into factions. The Asari kept the Prothean beacon secret for centuries. They, or the Salarians, could have back up plans known only to themselves.

Finally, the wild card is finding the true Catalyst. If IT is true, then Glowboy is not the catalyst, and if Vendetta was compromised by Cerberus and gave false information to Shepard, the Citadel may not even be the Catalyst either. Finding and using it, whatever, or indeed whoever it may be, could make all the difference.

#73496
demersel

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.

Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually.

So Anderson is working for Cerberus or indoctrinated? Makes sense... not.


First off - he HAD dealings with Cerberus. Documented. 
Second - he COULD be  getting indoctrinated - Allience did stole the Leviathan of Dis from the Batarians, during ME2. And we all know what it did to the Batarians. 
Third - why do you assume that cerberus = reapers? They are both bad guys sure, but so what? 

#73497
Rifneno

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estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.


Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually. 

You're not making the situation on Earth look any better by saying that one of the leading commanders has been indoctrinated.


Haven't they been telling us for a while about how things are darkest before the dawn?

#73498
TJBartlemus

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.

Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually.

So Anderson is working for Cerberus or indoctrinated? Makes sense... not.


Why would an Admiral want to make a stealth frigate that constantly goes on missions far away from actual MAIN combat with the enemy and is in constant danger which could get him, a high ranking official, killed. Makes sense...not. Only reason the other admirals from other species were on Shepard's ship was in part cause they were once his crew, and in the fact that they were there for diplomatic reasons. Not there to plan out ENTIRE wars.

#73499
Guest_Ashep123_*

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"You were right Smith, you were always right, it was inevitable."

#73500
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Xilizhra wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Oh and one last thing regading Shepard in the rubble before I leave again.

If the Reapers are Indoctrinating Shepard they would not want to incapitate him more than necesary to facilitiate the final part of the process. They would want him to be able to get back up the moment he is broken, ready to start stapping his former allies in the back.

Wouldnt really matter if Shepard spend 3 days in the infirmary out cold.

Sooo... why is Shepard not imprisoned aboard Harbinger right now, ready to be deployed? Why leave her lying in London's rubble... where any number of stray weapons might obliterate her, if keeping her around was somehow important?


Yeah imagine the situation where some Alliance soldiers see Shepard beeing dragged aboard Harbinger by Marauder Shields, I mean it is not like people would keep an eye out for Commander Shepard...and then a few hours later he walks into camp saying he escaped...

...as opposed to wounded Shepard lying among rubble, possibly allready beeing protected by Alliance Soldiers or Soliders trying to reach and secure him when he/she wakes up? The Reapers are in control of their troops and could direct them away from where Shepard is.

...in fact there is not even any Reaper soldiers in the area which we see, all we see is Harbinger looming above.

Also there is the common feeling thaat something which happened in a dream seems to take much longer than it actually did. Shepard might only have been lying in the rubble for a few minutes in real time.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 26 décembre 2012 - 08:48 .