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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#73501
demersel

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estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.


Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually. 

You're not making the situation on Earth look any better by saying that one of the leading commanders has been indoctrinated.


Ok, How's that - ALL of the leading commanders might be indoctrinated to some degree. Is that better? 
The  real problem with the situation on earth and in the galaxy - is that you didn't even BEGAN to understand how deep in guano you are. And your assesment of the odds are wrong because of the initial wrong assesment of the situation. 

#73502
dorktainian

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demersel wrote...

estebanus wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.


Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually. 

You're not making the situation on Earth look any better by saying that one of the leading commanders has been indoctrinated.


Ok, How's that - ALL of the leading commanders might be indoctrinated to some degree. Is that better? 
The  real problem with the situation on earth and in the galaxy - is that you didn't even BEGAN to understand how deep in guano you are. And your assesment of the odds are wrong because of the initial wrong assesment of the situation. 

divide and conquer.  :whistle:

#73503
demersel

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MegumiAzusa wrote...
And where do we take the asteroid with the strapped on engines from?


Why, the same place you got it the first time around, stupid - Omega. That is why it costs 1200 bioware points. )))

#73504
Xilizhra

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Yeah imagine the situation where some Alliance soldiers see Shepard beeing dragged aboard Harbinger by Marauder Shields, I mean it is not like people would keep an eye out for Commander Shepard...and then a few hours later he walks into camp saying he escaped...

Just her being dragged aboard would be a major morale blow in and of itself, wouldn't it? And if Harbinger can supposedly kill everyone in the area, no one would even see it.

For that matter, in this scenario, the breath scene would happen regardless in-universe; the only difference would be whether or not Shepard woke up indoctrinated or not. Which would make the choice to show it only in Destroy very odd.

#73505
hukbum

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demersel wrote...

That is why it costs 1200 bioware points. )))

I like the way you think. You add sense everywhere :D

Btw.: Happy dings & bums!

Modifié par hukbum, 26 décembre 2012 - 08:53 .


#73506
MegumiAzusa

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TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.

Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually.

So Anderson is working for Cerberus or indoctrinated? Makes sense... not.


Why would an Admiral want to make a stealth frigate that constantly goes on missions far away from actual MAIN combat with the enemy and is in constant danger which could get him, a high ranking official, killed. Makes sense...not. Only reason the other admirals from other species were on Shepard's ship was in part cause they were once his crew, and in the fact that they were there for diplomatic reasons. Not there to plan out ENTIRE wars.

It's fact that the Normandy is the most advanced ship in the fleet. Also as you said yourself it's perfect for negotiations, which is what Anderson wanted to do and orders Shep to do.

#73507
TJBartlemus

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.

Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually.

So Anderson is working for Cerberus or indoctrinated? Makes sense... not.


Why would an Admiral want to make a stealth frigate that constantly goes on missions far away from actual MAIN combat with the enemy and is in constant danger which could get him, a high ranking official, killed. Makes sense...not. Only reason the other admirals from other species were on Shepard's ship was in part cause they were once his crew, and in the fact that they were there for diplomatic reasons. Not there to plan out ENTIRE wars.

It's fact that the Normandy is the most advanced ship in the fleet. Also as you said yourself it's perfect for negotiations, which is what Anderson wanted to do and orders Shep to do.


You remember in ME2 if Anderson is Councilor, he implies he hates politics. He is a soldier and wanting to conduct out negotiations doesn't really fit his MO.

#73508
nightcobra

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah imagine the situation where some Alliance soldiers see Shepard beeing dragged aboard Harbinger by Marauder Shields, I mean it is not like people would keep an eye out for Commander Shepard...and then a few hours later he walks into camp saying he escaped...

Just her being dragged aboard would be a major morale blow in and of itself, wouldn't it? And if Harbinger can supposedly kill everyone in the area, no one would even see it.

For that matter, in this scenario, the breath scene would happen regardless in-universe; the only difference would be whether or not Shepard woke up indoctrinated or not. Which would make the choice to show it only in Destroy very odd.


Shepard could either resist the indocrination attempt (Destroy, maybe even refusal) or be indocrinated (control, synthesis) but pull a "Benezia" with maybe a *shepard interrupt*

Posted Image

(rather than a paragon/renegade interrupt) during the credits in order to wake up (this could also be used for the resist indocrination route) and stay in control of his/her mind long enough to finish the fight but die afterwards like with any subject that succumbs to indocrination.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 26 décembre 2012 - 08:59 .


#73509
MegumiAzusa

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TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

So they don't trust the Ship which Anderson wanted to take as his flagship? Makes sense... not.

Actually Anderson wanting making this particular ship his flagship is what is not making sense in the first place. Use your brains instead of trying to be a smart-as$ - not the same thing, actually.

So Anderson is working for Cerberus or indoctrinated? Makes sense... not.


Why would an Admiral want to make a stealth frigate that constantly goes on missions far away from actual MAIN combat with the enemy and is in constant danger which could get him, a high ranking official, killed. Makes sense...not. Only reason the other admirals from other species were on Shepard's ship was in part cause they were once his crew, and in the fact that they were there for diplomatic reasons. Not there to plan out ENTIRE wars.

It's fact that the Normandy is the most advanced ship in the fleet. Also as you said yourself it's perfect for negotiations, which is what Anderson wanted to do and orders Shep to do.


You remember in ME2 if Anderson is Councilor, he implies he hates politics. He is a soldier and wanting to conduct out negotiations doesn't really fit his MO.

You play the cards you're dealt. Anderson is known and knows the situation best if we exclude Shepard.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 26 décembre 2012 - 09:02 .


#73510
TJBartlemus

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

You play the cards you're dealt.


 That would be correct in the fact if he "supposedly" made the decision during the Reaper war, but that is not the case. It is assumed that he made the decision that he wanted the Normandy as his flagship before the attacks.

 Also on the fact about not trusting the Normandy...even after the remodeling Cerberus still had devices on the Normandy according to the videos on Chronos Station. The Alliance possibly knew was no guarentee that they got all of them.

#73511
TJBartlemus

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

You play the cards you're dealt. Anderson is known and knows the situation best if we exclude Shepard.


PS. I'm also pretty sure there are much better politicians to negotiate than Anderson and Shepard. Only reason Shepard was involved was cause he knows some of the leaders and has high standing as a Council Specter. (Wrex and Tali) 

#73512
MegumiAzusa

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TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You play the cards you're dealt.


 That would be correct in the fact if he "supposedly" made the decision during the Reaper war, but that is not the case. It is assumed that he made the decision that he wanted the Normandy as his flagship before the attacks.

 Also on the fact about not trusting the Normandy...even after the remodeling Cerberus still had devices on the Normandy according to the videos on Chronos Station. The Alliance possibly knew was no guarentee that they got all of them.

The edit explains your first point, for the second the videos on Chronos made no hint when they were recorded but that it was after EDI was unshackled.

#73513
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah imagine the situation where some Alliance soldiers see Shepard beeing dragged aboard Harbinger by Marauder Shields, I mean it is not like people would keep an eye out for Commander Shepard...and then a few hours later he walks into camp saying he escaped...

Just her being dragged aboard would be a major morale blow in and of itself, wouldn't it? And if Harbinger can supposedly kill everyone in the area, no one would even see it.

For that matter, in this scenario, the breath scene would happen regardless in-universe; the only difference would be whether or not Shepard woke up indoctrinated or not. Which would make the choice to show it only in Destroy very odd.


Harbinger supposedly missed killing of Anderson and Shepard on the beam run.

But beyond that a Reaper is not perfect for all they want to say, it wouldnt take more than missing a single person for all of Shepards usefullness as an Indoctrinated agent to crumble in to nothing as no one would ever believe Shepard escaped Harbinger unaltered, at least not unless they were stupid.

Also even if no one has sight on Shepard they are without doubt tracking him/her through his/her communication equibment or similar ways as they seem to always know exactly where Shepard is. Having the signal coming from within Harbinger would not exactly be a good signal or even if it was cut of they would Shepard was in the same area as Harbinger when the signal disappeared.

Also yes Shepard beeing dragged aboard Harbinger might be a severe morale blow or it would have the opposite effect turning Shepard into a martyr, in fact that is more likely. Shepard or not everyone in that fleet came knowing they would either defeat the Reapers or die. The only way they are getting out is by winning, giving up, fleeing is not an option.

But if we talk morale blows what would be the biggest blow? Shepard dying/getting captured or an Indoctrinated Shepard wiping out the command of the fleet by turning upon them?

And regaridng the breath scene. Yeah under IT essentially happens no matter the choice, but what would your thoughts have been if Control or Synthesis where Shepard is vaporized suddenly cut to his body prefectly fine and breathing in rubble? The entire thing would be obvious then.

Though dont get destroy wrong, even if we dont see Shepard getting vaporized his survival is just as unbeliavable especially in a condition where he would be taking any kind of breath.

He is near the center of a fireball which is more than 10 times as large as the nukes over Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the devastation they wrought was without the fireball ever touching the ground. This explosions however is blowing chunks of the Citadel which has a hull described as so hard even the strongest weaponry can barely dent it.

In this Shepard, who is probably allready dying from blood loss, has passed out twice and who has a burned out armor with no shields is standing near the center of the explosion in an exposed area. To give another example from Hiroshima, a man who was killed by the nuke was incinerated his ashes melted into the staircase behind him creating what looked like a shadow of where he had been standing.

Shepard would be exposed to soemthing more than a thousand times as intense as that. Survival in Destroy from a litteral perspective is utterly impossible. 

#73514
TJBartlemus

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You play the cards you're dealt.


 That would be correct in the fact if he "supposedly" made the decision during the Reaper war, but that is not the case. It is assumed that he made the decision that he wanted the Normandy as his flagship before the attacks.

 Also on the fact about not trusting the Normandy...even after the remodeling Cerberus still had devices on the Normandy according to the videos on Chronos Station. The Alliance possibly knew was no guarentee that they got all of them.

The edit explains your first point, for the second the videos on Chronos made no hint when they were recorded but that it was after EDI was unshackled.


Which occured after the Collectors attacked the ship. Now why would Cerberus be trying to spy on the ship and EDI is spamming them? Cause Shepard broke off contact with them. That occurs after the Collector base. So that means that video was recorded after the event of ME2. That much is certain. And after the events of ME2 the Normandy was in possession of the Alliance. 

 Now if you make the point that EDI could of told the Alliance that the devices were taken care of, that would be invalid because EDI was acting as a VI during the reconstruction and wouldn't risk it. Even if she did, the Alliance would still be paranoid. All politicians are. So why risk the chance?

#73515
IronSabbath88

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Hey guys,

Sorry I haven't been around much lately... I have become heavily addicted to the Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood multiplayer.

I know I'm late to the party but there's actually people still playing it and lo and behold it's a multiplayer I'm actually pretty skilled at for a change.. lol

#73516
MaximizedAction

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IronSabbath88 wrote...

Hey guys,

Sorry I haven't been around much lately... I have become heavily addicted to the Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood multiplayer.

I know I'm late to the party but there's actually people still playing it and lo and behold it's a multiplayer I'm actually pretty skilled at for a change.. lol


Have you tried AC3's MP yet? Haven't tried myself but looking forward to playing it soon.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 26 décembre 2012 - 09:28 .


#73517
MegumiAzusa

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TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You play the cards you're dealt.


 That would be correct in the fact if he "supposedly" made the decision during the Reaper war, but that is not the case. It is assumed that he made the decision that he wanted the Normandy as his flagship before the attacks.

 Also on the fact about not trusting the Normandy...even after the remodeling Cerberus still had devices on the Normandy according to the videos on Chronos Station. The Alliance possibly knew was no guarentee that they got all of them.

The edit explains your first point, for the second the videos on Chronos made no hint when they were recorded but that it was after EDI was unshackled.


Which occured after the Collectors attacked the ship. Now why would Cerberus be trying to spy on the ship and EDI is spamming them? Cause Shepard broke off contact with them. That occurs after the Collector base. So that means that video was recorded after the event of ME2. That much is certain. And after the events of ME2 the Normandy was in possession of the Alliance. 

 Now if you make the point that EDI could of told the Alliance that the devices were taken care of, that would be invalid because EDI was acting as a VI during the reconstruction and wouldn't risk it. Even if she did, the Alliance would still be paranoid. All politicians are. So why risk the chance?

A VI that is supposedly bound to Joker.
Joker: "EDI display any Cerberus spy equipment."
EDI: "Of course, Jef."

#73518
TJBartlemus

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You play the cards you're dealt.


 That would be correct in the fact if he "supposedly" made the decision during the Reaper war, but that is not the case. It is assumed that he made the decision that he wanted the Normandy as his flagship before the attacks.

 Also on the fact about not trusting the Normandy...even after the remodeling Cerberus still had devices on the Normandy according to the videos on Chronos Station. The Alliance possibly knew was no guarentee that they got all of them.

The edit explains your first point, for the second the videos on Chronos made no hint when they were recorded but that it was after EDI was unshackled.


Which occured after the Collectors attacked the ship. Now why would Cerberus be trying to spy on the ship and EDI is spamming them? Cause Shepard broke off contact with them. That occurs after the Collector base. So that means that video was recorded after the event of ME2. That much is certain. And after the events of ME2 the Normandy was in possession of the Alliance. 

 Now if you make the point that EDI could of told the Alliance that the devices were taken care of, that would be invalid because EDI was acting as a VI during the reconstruction and wouldn't risk it. Even if she did, the Alliance would still be paranoid. All politicians are. So why risk the chance?

A VI that is supposedly bound to Joker.
Joker: "EDI display any Cerberus spy equipment."
EDI: "Of course, Jef."


Rebuttal in bold. :innocent:

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 26 décembre 2012 - 09:31 .


#73519
MegumiAzusa

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TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You play the cards you're dealt.


 That would be correct in the fact if he "supposedly" made the decision during the Reaper war, but that is not the case. It is assumed that he made the decision that he wanted the Normandy as his flagship before the attacks.

 Also on the fact about not trusting the Normandy...even after the remodeling Cerberus still had devices on the Normandy according to the videos on Chronos Station. The Alliance possibly knew was no guarentee that they got all of them.

The edit explains your first point, for the second the videos on Chronos made no hint when they were recorded but that it was after EDI was unshackled.


Which occured after the Collectors attacked the ship. Now why would Cerberus be trying to spy on the ship and EDI is spamming them? Cause Shepard broke off contact with them. That occurs after the Collector base. So that means that video was recorded after the event of ME2. That much is certain. And after the events of ME2 the Normandy was in possession of the Alliance. 

 Now if you make the point that EDI could of told the Alliance that the devices were taken care of, that would be invalid because EDI was acting as a VI during the reconstruction and wouldn't risk it. Even if she did, the Alliance would still be paranoid. All politicians are. So why risk the chance?

A VI that is supposedly bound to Joker.
Joker: "EDI display any Cerberus spy equipment."
EDI: "Of course, Jef."


Rebuttal in bold. :innocent:

That's no rebuttal but your belief.

#73520
TJBartlemus

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

That's no rebuttal but your belief.


 Why would the Alliance make a former Cerberus vehicle that could contain unknown tech and devices the flagship of an Admiral?

#73521
BansheeOwnage

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TJBartlemus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

That's no rebuttal but your belief.


 Why would the Alliance make a former Cerberus vehicle that could contain unknown tech and devices the flagship of an Admiral?

Because if Cerberus could do anything with it they would have by now. When you're fighting reapers, you take what you can get. I mean, you have to be careful - hence the Alliance refit - but the Normandy is still the fastest ship in the galaxy excluding reapers, and has other advantages you can't pass up.

Hello people. Hope everyone had/is having a good holiday!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 26 décembre 2012 - 09:40 .


#73522
Guest_magnetite_*

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dorktainian wrote...

lets face it. as it stands at the moment Bioware are happy with the ending to their game. They've said it many times. they are happy with it.

Yes. I know the IT is a much better explanation of what actually was going on. Yes I know I have my own theories on what really went on. Yes this thread can go on for another 1000 pages without getting any answers off Bioware. I get the feeling they dont give a smeg.

I do hope none of you lose hope. At the end of the day thats really all we're holding on to. no matter if we're IT supporters, Refusal Supporters or whatever.

Keep the faith.


Well to that I say this. In the end though, you decide what the ending is, not Bioware. If they don't confirm IT and just leave it open, then you can just say that's how it happened because of all the evidence we found.

Modifié par magnetite, 26 décembre 2012 - 09:40 .


#73523
dorktainian

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magnetite wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

lets face it. as it stands at the moment Bioware are happy with the ending to their game. They've said it many times. they are happy with it.

Yes. I know the IT is a much better explanation of what actually was going on. Yes I know I have my own theories on what really went on. Yes this thread can go on for another 1000 pages without getting any answers off Bioware. I get the feeling they dont give a smeg.

I do hope none of you lose hope. At the end of the day thats really all we're holding on to. no matter if we're IT supporters, Refusal Supporters or whatever.

Keep the faith.


Well to that I say this. In the end though, you decide what the ending is, not Bioware. If they don't confirm IT and just leave it open, then you can just say that's how it happened because of all the evidence we found.

yeah but when you have 4 endings there is always going to be trouble.  1 ending would have worked.  4 endings just leaves it a mess.  If IT is confirmed then i'll be as happy as the next man... unless we have to pay for it.  would bioware be so utterly utterly stupid to alienate its own fanbase over the ending to a game?  there are so many questions without even getting into IT.

#73524
BansheeOwnage

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dorktainian wrote...

lets face it. as it stands at the moment Bioware are happy with the ending to their game. They've said it many times. they are happy with it.

Yes. I know the IT is a much better explanation of what actually was going on. Yes I know I have my own theories on what really went on. Yes this thread can go on for another 1000 pages without getting any answers off Bioware. I get the feeling they dont give a smeg.

I do hope none of you lose hope. At the end of the day thats really all we're holding on to. no matter if we're IT supporters, Refusal Supporters or whatever.

Keep the faith.

Interesting, isn't it, that through all of this, the one thing we hold onto is hope? One of the key Mass Effect themes? I find it very cool actually. Maybe it taught us some things after all, even with this ending.

"Without hope... we might as well be machines - programmed to do what we're told."

"You have hope. More than you think."          
Was it a fourth wall break? Who knows...

Top! Posted Image

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 26 décembre 2012 - 09:47 .


#73525
Dysjong

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

lets face it. as it stands at the moment Bioware are happy with the ending to their game. They've said it many times. they are happy with it.

Yes. I know the IT is a much better explanation of what actually was going on. Yes I know I have my own theories on what really went on. Yes this thread can go on for another 1000 pages without getting any answers off Bioware. I get the feeling they dont give a smeg.

I do hope none of you lose hope. At the end of the day thats really all we're holding on to. no matter if we're IT supporters, Refusal Supporters or whatever.

Keep the faith.

Interesting, isn't it, that through all of this, the one thing we hold onto is hope? One of the key Mass Effect themes? I find it very cool actually. Maybe it taught us some things after all, even with this ending.

"Without hope... we might as well be machines - programmed to do what we're told."