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[Dwailing]

LadySuspense wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Whoa, I swear I just heard a woman scream on the Normandy. Freaky. And I think it reminded me a bit of that scream from the prologue when the shuttle gets shot down.

That was Vega.  There's a mouse down in the shuttle bay.  We're trying to get it taken care.

 Yes!

Oh, I think my robot dog just got it.  Crisis averted. 

[401 Kill]

LadySuspense wrote...

Yes, yes! It all makes so much sense and is beyond awesome! I mean I could have been making a mountain out of a mole hill there but my gutt says otherwise. Hey here is an interesting question for everyone: did you consider IT (or even know of it) before your first run through of ME3? I personally only heard about it after and after viewing evidence and taking it down to its thematic levels I really and truly think that it was biowares intention.

I beat it, saw the monstrosity that is the literal interpretation of the game, then found Acyvos' (if I spelled it correctly) video and was amazed! If you pay attention to what is happening around you, it all comes together and makes so much sense!

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

LadySuspense wrote...

Yes, yes! It all makes so much sense and is beyond awesome! I mean I could have been making a mountain out of a mole hill there but my gutt says otherwise. Hey here is an interesting question for everyone: did you consider IT (or even know of it) before your first run through of ME3? I personally only heard about it after and after viewing evidence and taking it down to its thematic levels I really and truly think that it was biowares intention.

IT was not my first thought, but something was off about the entire ending sequence and I ultimately picked Destroy as it is what every single person close to me had told me was the way to go.

Then I found this thread (or rather its first iteration) and the pieces just clicked into place. Been an active part of the thread ever since.

[Eryri]

Dwailing wrote...

LadySuspense wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Whoa, I swear I just heard a woman scream on the Normandy. Freaky. And I think it reminded me a bit of that scream from the prologue when the shuttle gets shot down.

That was Vega.  There's a mouse down in the shuttle bay.  We're trying to get it taken care.

 Yes!

Oh, I think my robot dog just got it.  Crisis averted. 

Oh so that's what that thing is for!

[Andromidius]

LadySuspense wrote...

Yes, yes! It all makes so much sense and is beyond awesome! I mean I could have been making a mountain out of a mole hill there but my gutt says otherwise. Hey here is an interesting question for everyone: did you consider IT (or even know of it) before your first run through of ME3? I personally only heard about it after and after viewing evidence and taking it down to its thematic levels I really and truly think that it was biowares intention.

I didn't expect anything like what we got, in all honesty.  And I was so irritated after playing it that it took me a few weeks to even think about how little the ending made sense.

[masster blaster]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

LadySuspense wrote...

Yes, yes! It all makes so much sense and is beyond awesome! I mean I could have been making a mountain out of a mole hill there but my gutt says otherwise. Hey here is an interesting question for everyone: did you consider IT (or even know of it) before your first run through of ME3? I personally only heard about it after and after viewing evidence and taking it down to its thematic levels I really and truly think that it was biowares intention.

IT was not my first thought, but something was off about the entire ending sequence and I ultimately picked Destroy as it is what every single person close to me had told me was the way to go.

Then I found this thread (or rather its first iteration) and the pieces just clicked into place. Been an active part of the thread ever since.

ME wanted to find out what happened at the end. came on here, and I was blown away by the IT thread, and beem here ever since.

[LadySuspense]

I kind of just sat there when I finished the game the first time I felt like I could deal with it until a few nasty plot holes were brought to my attention. Now IT kind of patches up most of those wounds (though the handling of the Rachni will never be fixed in my opinion, but that is neither here nor there,) and gives me more pizazz to play through the games again and see if I can pick up any other tidbits. Also I would like to take the time to say that man you guys are nice on this thread! I was treated well even after asking a somewhat stupid question and made to feel like a part of the group. Thank you!

[Andromidius]

LadySuspense wrote...

I kind of just sat there when I finished the game the first time I felt like I could deal with it until a few nasty plot holes were brought to my attention. Now IT kind of patches up most of those wounds (though the handling of the Rachni will never be fixed in my opinion, but that is neither here nor there,) and gives me more pizazz to play through the games again and see if I can pick up any other tidbits. Also I would like to take the time to say that man you guys are nice on this thread! I was treated well even after asking a somewhat stupid question and made to feel like a part of the group. Thank you!

Trust me.  We've heard much worse.  And much less sincere.

Someone pass me the mind-bleech, the nightmares are returning!

[LadySuspense]

Oh hey I had a question that maybe one of you guys can answer for me: How does refuse contribute to IT in the sense that with Destroy we see shepard waking up in what very well could be the final charge area, while with refuse we just see Liara saying a "don't make our mistake" message to the future alien race, it that supposed to be that we broke out of indoctrination and still lost?

[Andromidius]

LadySuspense wrote...

Oh hey I had a question that maybe one of you guys can answer for me: How does refuse contribute to IT in the sense that with Destroy we see shepard waking up in what very well could be the final charge area, while with refuse we just see Liara saying a "don't make our mistake" message to the future alien race, it that supposed to be that we broke out of indoctrination and still lost?

There's differing opinions.  The main one seems to be that Refuse is Shepard 'giving up' and dying.

Generally speaking:

Destroy low EMS = Shepard dead
Control = Shepard indoctrinated/hope for recovery
Synthesis = Shepard indoctrinated fully
Refuse = Shepard dies
Destroy high EMS = Shepard lives, resisting indoctrination

[401 Kill]

LadySuspense wrote...

Oh hey I had a question that maybe one of you guys can answer for me: How does refuse contribute to IT in the sense that with Destroy we see shepard waking up in what very well could be the final charge area, while with refuse we just see Liara saying a "don't make our mistake" message to the future alien race, it that supposed to be that we broke out of indoctrination and still lost?

That is sort of the odd-one-out. There are many different interpretations for refuse, but the prevelant one is that since Shepard was unwilling to even attempt to end the cycle, he remains stuck in the hallucination. Presumably useless to the Reapers who wanted Shepard for all of his strengths, if he is unwilling to make the final step he is effectively done for. There are different interpretations such as the Puzzle Theory as well.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

LadySuspense wrote...

I kind of just sat there when I finished the game the first time I felt like I could deal with it until a few nasty plot holes were brought to my attention. Now IT kind of patches up most of those wounds (though the handling of the Rachni will never be fixed in my opinion, but that is neither here nor there,) and gives me more pizazz to play through the games again and see if I can pick up any other tidbits. Also I would like to take the time to say that man you guys are nice on this thread! I was treated well even after asking a somewhat stupid question and made to feel like a part of the group. Thank you!

Oh yeah, the Rachni was the race which intrigued me the most in ME1. First of it was a Sci-fi bug race which was not hostile, which on its own was quite amazing, but then how the queen spoke, the focus on song and colors. It fascinated me, I wanted to learn more.

ME2 and ME3 dident exactly deliver on that, though an idea for IT I have might give some redemption.

Essentially a core part of my ideas is that certain events might allow even a Shepard who makes the wrong choice to get a chance. Like by pulling a Saren on himself allowing his squad to finish it.

But an idea i have repeated often is the idea that the Rahcni Queen might save Shepard. We know she is resistant to indoctrination, we know she can interact with the mind of living beeings and Bioware said the Rahcni would play a large role in the end.

Add that up with her talk of addiing her song to yours to burn away the darkness (from ME2) and you could imagine a Shepard succumbing to indoctrination, but the Rahcni Queen saving him through their song, their hivemind nad giving him the chance to finish the fight.

This might cost the Queen her life as she had to get close enough to Shepard, a afirmation that even if you got saved your choice cost you something. But such a death, such a sacrifice would be beatiful in cotext of how Shepard had saved the Rahcni Queen's life twice and that she died and with her her entire race, in order to save Shepard and the galaxy.

Might not give the deeper exploration of the Rahcni that I would want, but it would give the massive choice of ME1 a worthy pay off.

[LadySuspense]

If only we could have seen more of that amazing species... Btw thank you for answering my curious question. Hmm now to think on it and how Refuse is now not a favorable option to me.

[LadySuspense]

Man I remember how the fascinated me when I saw them in the game and then had a teaser like experience with them in 2. I had such high hopes for that storyline. Such a unique species that is unlike a lot of what sci fi produces.

[masster blaster]

Okay here it goes.

Catalyst master mind.
Leader of the Reapers.
Started the cycle why? To protect Organics, form the Synthetics. To preserve all life so they won't be lost.
Responsible for the past cycles.
Betrayed his creators why? So he could continue his programing/ purpose.
Why help Shepard? Shepard has changed everything.
Is one minded.
Manipulator.
Why does it not have full control over the Citadel?
Why doesn't the brat not want to tell us about the cycle that created the crucible? Not enough time to explain, yet it talks to Shepard about the endings.
Orders the Reapers to build a conduit on Earth.
Control's TIM.
Controlled every Indoctrinated person.
promised All Indoctrinated agents that if they helped the Reapers, then they will be spared/ pro missed a future to look forward to.

Harbinger
the first Reaper.
General of the Reapers/ the right hand of the Catalyst,
How is he controlled?
why did Harbinger not betray his creator?
Prime suspect to be the Catalyst at the end.
Why does Harbinger display independence if he is being controlled?
Why not kill Shepard in arrival, and the beam run?
Is ordered to begin the harvest of humanity/ create the first Reaper of this cycle.
Why does Harbinger not try to hunt down Shepard? Is leading the Reapers at Earth.

Nazara, or Sovereign
IS Harbingers/ the Brat's LT.
Why use the Geth to attack Organics, if the brat is telling the Reapers to protect Organics from Synthetics? Needs to find a way to get into the Citadel/ find the Prothean beacons.
Why would Nazara dispose the Geth after the Reapers come back? They are no more use to Him/ the brat.
Wanted Shepard is an ally.
Indoctrinated Saren.
Promised Saren that he would live/ the Reapers will spare anyone that does not stop them.
Hates Organics/ told Shepard that Organics are an error.


Saren.
Indoctrinated when he meet Nazara.
Slowly was Indoctrinated by the Monolith
Wanted to Destroy humanity for the death of his Brother.
Told Shepard that he was trying to save everyone by fusing man, and machine together.
The Reapers control him.
influenced people to join him by Indoctrination/ his reputation.
Betrayed everyone by joining the Reapers.


end of part 1.

[BleedingUranium]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

LadySuspense wrote...

Yes, yes! It all makes so much sense and is beyond awesome! I mean I could have been making a mountain out of a mole hill there but my gutt says otherwise. Hey here is an interesting question for everyone: did you consider IT (or even know of it) before your first run through of ME3? I personally only heard about it after and after viewing evidence and taking it down to its thematic levels I really and truly think that it was biowares intention.

IT was not my first thought, but something was off about the entire ending sequence and I ultimately picked Destroy as it is what every single person close to me had told me was the way to go.

Then I found this thread (or rather its first iteration) and the pieces just clicked into place. Been an active part of the thread ever since.

Pretty much the same for me. Something was up, the choices were what TIM/Saren/everyoneincludingShepard wanted, so it wasn't difficult. Then I found this thread and Acayvos's video, and it all fell into place.

LadySuspense wrote...

Also I would like to take the time to say that man you guys are nice on this thread! I was treated well even after asking a somewhat stupid question and made to feel like a part of the group. Thank you!

No problem!

[Cyberfrog81]

LadySuspense wrote...

If only we could have seen more of that amazing species... Btw thank you for answering my curious question. Hmm now to think on it and how Refuse is now not a favorable option to me.

In terms of dialogue, there is no stronger rejection of the enemy. It is however missing a "breath scene" or equivalent, which is a pretty hard blow.

I consider it less fail than Control and Synthesis, no matter how "happy" those endings appear to be.

[BleedingUranium]

LadySuspense wrote...

Man I remember how the fascinated me when I saw them in the game and then had a teaser like experience with them in 2. I had such high hopes for that storyline. Such a unique species that is unlike a lot of what sci fi produces.

With regards to the Rachni idea Raistlin posted, most pre-release quotes that seemed like a lies actually aren't if you look at the game with IT in mind. This is the only one that still is:

"[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers." -Mac Walters

That was from February 28th, one week to the day before launch. The game was beyond finished, they were in the stores at this point; something's up.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 27 décembre 2012 - 11:17 .

[masster blaster]

TIM
Why does he betray humanity? He is Indoctrinated.
Why experiment on his own kind?
Why does he order his troops to attack the galactic races? Reapers are telling him to do so.
Why does he not want Shepard dead?
How does TIM know about Thessia before Shepard can find out?
Why did TIM attack the Citadel?
Why leave Shepard the VI if he didn't want Shepard to have it?
Why does TIM want to implant Reaper tech in him? So he can Control the Reapers?
protector of humanity.
List his friends to the Reapers.
Why would TIM implant his troops with Reaper tech? To increase their combat skills, and test to see if he can control them.
If TIM was trying to Control the Reapers, then shouldn't the Reapers not know about his side project?


Indoctrinated Protheans/ Collectors
Wanted to Control the Reapers. Didn't end well
Became collectors.
Tried to stop the their own kind from Destroying the Reapers.
Their weapons cause them pain why?
Indoctrinated.
sabotaged the Crucible.
Can be controlled by Harbinger, yet not by any other Reaper that we know of,
Nothing left of them because the Reapers synthesis them to much.

Benezia.
Liara's mom.
Tried to help Saren, but became Indoctrinated.


Rana
Indoctrinated by the Reaper tech on Virmirer,
killed Asari high command if Shepard let her live.
convinced Shepard that she was not Indoctrinated.
told Shepard about Indoctrination, and how it feels like.

End of part 2

Modifié par masster blaster, 27 décembre 2012 - 11:22 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Eryri wrote...
I'd find it hard to single out the most compelling piece...

Same, but I'll post mine anyway.

What is IT’s best piece of evidence?
The utter improbability that Bioware would write such an awesome, deep game with such great lore and characters, then apparently forget all of those characters, break the lore, and release a generally unsatisfying end the their awesome trilogy. The end of ME3 is arguably the most important part of the series. But then, after that, release more awesomely written DLC. How could they be awesome, screw up very badly, then be awesome again? Doesn't make any sense! So my biggest piece of IT evidence is BW screwing up that badly, because it simply makes less sense than the endings!

Basically if the literal endings are true (regardless of breaking themes and lore) it means Shepard and all of Shepard's friends and allies are just stubborn idiots. They should have listened to the antagonists (Saren, TIM, Reapers) the whole time. Instead they're just soldiers only able to look at the world down the barrel of a gun. That would not only make no sense at all from a writing perspective, but it would be totally, totally lame.

I also want someone to ask why the apparent moral of the story was something like this:
“The villains were right all along; the hero and associates were just too stubborn to realize it. Also, free will sucks, and gets everyone killed. Better to force something on everything in the galaxy."

Here's how I see it: Whether intentionally or not, BW has in fact indoctrinated much of the playerbase. The fun thing about that is you can't really argue it, because said portion of the playerbase aligned themselves with the reapers willingly. If BW didn't intend this, they indoctrinated themselves, much like what the reapers may have done.

[LadySuspense]

Well more so that I wanted to see them become something of an incorruptible force not something that got so horribly tainted but I guess that shows the reapers power though

[BansheeOwnage]

LadySuspense wrote...

I kind of just sat there when I finished the game the first time I felt like I could deal with it until a few nasty plot holes were brought to my attention. Now IT kind of patches up most of those wounds (though the handling of the Rachni will never be fixed in my opinion, but that is neither here nor there,) and gives me more pizazz to play through the games again and see if I can pick up any other tidbits. Also I would like to take the time to say that man you guys are nice on this thread! I was treated well even after asking a somewhat stupid question and made to feel like a part of the group. Thank you!

Actually, on the note of the Rachni, I find it interesting that they admitted they effectively admitted their mistakes there and apologized for the handling of that decision. Apparently they were short on time, and originally had an entirely different mission planned, but couldn't do it in time. They apologized even though it was really EA's fault. But they won't admit they made any mistake with the endings? They only valid excuse for that I can think of is IT. Just saying.

[LadySuspense]

Banshee
"Here's how I see it: Whether intentionally or not, BW has in fact indoctrinated much of the playerbase. The fun thing about that is you can't really argue it, because said portion of the playerbase aligned themselves with the reapers willingly. If BW didn't intend this, they indoctrinated themselves, much like what the reapers may have done. "
oh how I love this quote of yours!

[Rifneno]

Javik: Anger. Good. We can use that.
Jack: What the hell are you?

You know, now that I think about it, I'm surprised we don't hear that question more often. That was my question when I first saw Thane, but I can see why in-game characters didn't react that way. Actually living in Mass Effect, they probably knew of drell even if the player didn't. But Javik...

[LadySuspense]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

LadySuspense wrote...

I kind of just sat there when I finished the game the first time I felt like I could deal with it until a few nasty plot holes were brought to my attention. Now IT kind of patches up most of those wounds (though the handling of the Rachni will never be fixed in my opinion, but that is neither here nor there,) and gives me more pizazz to play through the games again and see if I can pick up any other tidbits. Also I would like to take the time to say that man you guys are nice on this thread! I was treated well even after asking a somewhat stupid question and made to feel like a part of the group. Thank you!

Actually, on the note of the Rachni, I find it interesting that they admitted they effectively admitted their mistakes there and apologized for the handling of that decision. Apparently they were short on time, and originally had an entirely different mission planned, but couldn't do it in time. They apologized even though it was really EA's fault. But they won't admit they made any mistake with the endings? They only valid excuse for that I can think of is IT. Just saying.

Oh thank you I didn't know that and I feel ridiculously better about that now. Wow. Yeah IT all the way. I don't want to believe that Bioware copped out. They have given us deep themes in the past why would they stop now?