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[Dwailing]

Andromidius wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

http://social.biowar...ndex/15408359/1

Pure insanity.

Well, the guy DOES have a point.  Odds are we WOULDN'T be here without the Reapers.  That doesn't mean what they did was right, or that we should show them any mercy, it just means that enough thousands if not millions of races have been EXTERMINATED that we ended up existing.  Doesn't change my opinion of the Reapers at all.

Very first line - calling the Catalyst a force of nature.  Completely incorrect.

The rest of the post is basically apologetics for the Reapers.

Also, the Reapers had nothing to do with the evolution of Human life.  Humans would still likely exist without having Mass Effect technology.  And they'd also not be a target of the Reaper's sadistic little game.

Trust me, I agree with everything that you're saying.  However, without the Reapers, there is at least a possibility that another race, at some point, would have discovered Mass Effect technology on its own (I mean, even without the Reapers, that phenomenon still exists.  It's just that there wouldn't be any Relays, Citadel, etc. already built), and possibly would have colonized Earth before we existed.  OK, even if you won't say it's probable, please at least admit that it's possible.  Note, I'm not trying to defend the Reapers.  At all.  I'm just saying that there's at least a possibility that humanity wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the lack of other races in the galaxy.

Modifié par Dwailing, 28 décembre 2012 - 04:05 .

[CmdrShep80]

Andromidius wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the number of mistakes and plain old bad writing there is in Deception.

Yeah, THIS is bad writing. Take note, literalists.

iv e wanted to read that book. I've wondered if we're just mistaken about the bad writing. For example if mass effect was ported to marvel comics and redid the origin people would revolt

Wait, wait, wait.  What?  Kai Leng kills someone with a toothbrush?
...
The author HAS to be trolling.  Seriously.

ya but I can't speak on it cause I haven't read anything yet in the book

[Dwailing]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the number of mistakes and plain old bad writing there is in Deception.

Yeah, THIS is bad writing. Take note, literalists.

iv e wanted to read that book. I've wondered if we're just mistaken about the bad writing. For example if mass effect was ported to marvel comics and redid the origin people would revolt

Wait, wait, wait.  What?  Kai Leng kills someone with a toothbrush?
...
The author HAS to be trolling.  Seriously.

ya but I can't speak on it cause I haven't read anything yet in the book

I've read about fifty pages of it.  It makes the literal endings look like frakking Shakespeare.

[BansheeOwnage]

Dwailing wrote...

Trust me, I agree with everything that you're saying.  However, without the Reapers, there is at least a possibility that another race, at some point, would have discovered Mass Effect technology on its own (I mean, even without the Reapers, that phenomenon still exists.  It's just that there wouldn't be any Relays, Citadel, etc. already built), and possibly would have colonized Earth before we existed.  OK, even if you won't say it's probable, please at least admit that it's possible.  Note, I'm not trying to defend the Reapers.  At all.  I'm just saying that there's at least a possibility that humanity wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the lack of other races in the galaxy.

Many races discover it on their own. The salarians did.

[BleedingUranium]

Mr. Mojo Risen wrote...

red her·ring
1.misleading clue: something introduced, e.g. into a crime or mystery story, in order to divert attention or mislead

Crucible!

Humakt83 wrote...

The temperature -128.5˚ Fahrenheit

Freezing point of Heptane (close to anyway). From wikipedia:

"In the grease spot test, heptane is used to dissolve the oil spot to show the previous presence of organic compounds on a stained paper. This is done by shaking the stained paper in a heptane solution for about half a minute."

[401 Kill]

Requesting reinforcements! Everybody is gone!

[401 Kill]

Regaurding that thread, I'm sorry, that is either a troll attempt, or genuine insanity caused by the literal endings. Poor fellow, he could have been saved if only he read up on the first page of this thread. It's too late for him though.

[DoomsdayDevice]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

LadySuspense wrote...

Wow that is very interesting. I forgot that Legion had Reaper tech in him and holy smokes that could be bad for the Quarians...O.O It would be devilishly cunning for the Reapers to use him as a contingency plan because hey we never even doubted the logic of the ending of the war. We may not even see repercussions until years later when the tech they use would get even more advanced!

Keep in mind that Legion did not upload reaper code to the geth. Someone else could explain it better, but it's like reading a book (reaper code) and taking out the pages we want and using them. Legion took what he wanted from the code, but he made his own.

It's exactly like how we have thanix cannons based on a reaper's main gun. We aren't using reaper tech (which almost always leads to indoctrination) we reverse-engineered it.

It's exactly like how the protheans managed to build their own mass relay. Sure, the reapers built the others, but the protheans built this one on their own. By using it, they do not develop along the paths the reapers desire.

The reapers never even considered that the protheans could do that (hubris!) and it stopped the keeper signal 50000 years later. They never considered Sovereign would be destroyed and we would build thanix cannons from his tech. They never considered Legion would be able to upgrade the geth as he did.

That's why I don't think Legion is/was indoctrinated, and that's why I think the reapers will be defeated because of their hubris.

But Banshee, even though people keep saying this isn't Reaper code, it's modified, etcetera, there's nothing that actually supports that.

I posted about it, even linked to it earlier, but people just ignore it.

Here I'll post it again:

I've gone through all the dialogue in the entire mission, and there is absolutely nothing that even suggests this.

Here is literally everything that is ever said about the subject:

(Before the mission)

Legion: We will deactivate defense systems and acquire an escape vehicle.
Shepard: You can do that?
Legion:  This unit still carries remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code. We can break any Geth security. You are concerned.
Shepard: (renegade) Yes, I'm concerned! You're still hooked up to the Reapers?
Legion: No, we simply carry code upgrades that make us more effective--more intelligent.
Shepard: But you lied! You lied about rescuing those Geth on the server, and you're lying again now! Damn it, Legion, what do I have to do to gain your trust?
(...)

------

(After the mission)

Legion: Shepard-Commander. The Geth only acted in defense after the creators attacked. Do we deserve death?
Shepard: What are you suggesting?
Legion: Our upgrades. With the old machine dead, we could upload them to all Geth without sacrificing their independence.
Tali: You want to upload the Reaper code? That would make the Geth as smart as when the Reaper was controlling them!
Legion: Yes, but with free will. Each Geth unit would be a true intelligence. We would be alive, and we could help you.
(...)
Legion: Error. Copying code is insufficient. Direct personality dissemination
required. Shepard-Commander, I must go to them. I'm sorry, it's the only
way.

At best, you can assume he reworked the code because he mentions the word 'remnants'. But it is nowhere near solid proof that it was reverse engineered. He basically just talks about upgrades all the time, and Shepard definitely calls it "Reaper code".

tl;dr:

1. Legion does not mention modifying/reworking the code
2. Shepard calls it "Reaper code".

Also, there's nothing to suggest that the Reaper code only regrows as long as the Reaper is connected to the consensus. It's a complete assumption.

Correct me if I'm wrong, or if you have anything that disproves this.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 28 décembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[CmdrShep80]

Repent! The end is neigh! Only 42 till 3,000. Yet there are but a few days before evil cometh. We can succeed with one post! Do not let the darkness blind you. Repent! The end is neigh! IT must have proof to exist. Yet without existence IT cannot be proved! It is not the beginning that is important but how it ends! Destroy we must, yet belief we need. We must be as certain as I, lest the uncertain kill you. Do not control what you do not seek. Wake up to the truth of your genetic destiny! Seek those who will aid your cause, seek those who are not blinded, and wake those who are. Layeth in bed you may but the discomfort of rubble is worse than a lovers quarrel. Repent and post! Hypothesis, theory, and guesswork are one and the same. For speculate we must to rewrite how it all ends! The answer you seek is as plain as the star that hangs over the windowless sky!

Just a little mash up of a few ME themes

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 28 décembre 2012 - 05:58 .

[BleedingUranium]

@Doomsday

I specifically remember Legion talking about how he made it his own; you're missing something.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Dwailing wrote...

IMHO, if the Predator is meant to be a symbol of good and breaking indoctrination, then it has to act as that symbol every time it appears.  Since we have scenes where it does not act in that symbolic sense (The VS on the Citadel, Legion if you let the geth die, probably something else that I don't remember ), I don't think it can be unequivocally stated to be that symbol.  This is a bit subjective, but the doubt is just not something I can handle.

Agreed, either it's symbolism, or it's not.

The only kill that is made with the Predator that people see as 'betrayal' rather than 'freeing from indoctrination' is when you kill Legion, AFAIK.

So if it's 'not always' symbolism, then it's no symbolism at all. It only works when it's consistent.

[CmdrShep80]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

IMHO, if the Predator is meant to be a symbol of good and breaking indoctrination, then it has to act as that symbol every time it appears.  Since we have scenes where it does not act in that symbolic sense (The VS on the Citadel, Legion if you let the geth die, probably something else that I don't remember ), I don't think it can be unequivocally stated to be that symbol.  This is a bit subjective, but the doubt is just not something I can handle.

Agreed, either it's symbolism, or it's not.

The only kill that is made with the Predator that people see as 'betrayal' rather than 'freeing from indoctrination' is when you kill Legion, AFAIK.
So if it's 'not always' symbolism, then it's no symbolism at all. It only works when it's consistent.

so here's a thought. If the predator truly represents freeing from indoctrination then without looking at anything else why would we need to free Legion from indoctrination?  Let's assume for a moment the symbolism of the predator holds true 100% of the time and what we see in the scene isn't always what it seems. How will that change the legion scene?

[DoomsdayDevice]

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Doomsday

I specifically remember Legion talking about how he made it his own; you're missing something.

It's possible, but I've done the entire mission twice, tried both renegade and paragon dialogue options.

I'd be most interested to see some evidence for this.

Again: I'm not saying I'm 100% right on this, and I don't mind disagreeing, but if you're going to claim it's reworked code, then it's better to back up that claim, because I sure couldn't find where that's said, and I specifically did my playthrough for this.

Like I said, I would make up my mind on the mission. I was waiting for Legion to convince me that the upgrades were harmless, but it didn't happen.

[CmdrShep80]

By the way usually it is the people killing themselves with the predator so one thing about that scene is Legion is killed by someone else (particularly if you're a paragon and abhor characters killing characters senselessly). So is the person who shoots Legion believing that she is cleansing him of some sort of indoctrination?

edit- to add- has she done this to anyone else ever?

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 28 décembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[CmdrShep80]

@swooby - Swooby!

[DoomsdayDevice]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

IMHO, if the Predator is meant to be a symbol of good and breaking indoctrination, then it has to act as that symbol every time it appears.  Since we have scenes where it does not act in that symbolic sense (The VS on the Citadel, Legion if you let the geth die, probably something else that I don't remember ), I don't think it can be unequivocally stated to be that symbol.  This is a bit subjective, but the doubt is just not something I can handle.

Agreed, either it's symbolism, or it's not.

The only kill that is made with the Predator that people see as 'betrayal' rather than 'freeing from indoctrination' is when you kill Legion, AFAIK.
So if it's 'not always' symbolism, then it's no symbolism at all. It only works when it's consistent.

so here's a thought. If the predator truly represents freeing from indoctrination then without looking at anything else why would we need to free Legion from indoctrination?  Let's assume for a moment the symbolism of the predator holds true 100% of the time and what we see in the scene isn't always what it seems. How will that change the legion scene?

It changes the meaning of the scene.

If I'm right, and Legion is in the wrong for wanting to use the Reaper code, then the Quarians might end up like the Zha - A race that couldn't live on their homeworld anymore (sound familiar?) - they entered into a symbiotic relation with AI (sound familiar?), but the AI had been compromised by the Reapers and seized control of the Zha and turned them into the Zha'til.

Note that Javik tells you this story right before you do Priority Rannoch.

As for those of you who keep saying 'BUT THE GETH DON'T BETRAY US IN THE END!111!':

We've never seen the consequences of major decisions in the same game we made them. If this one gets a follow up, it's in the next game.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 28 décembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[BleedingUranium]

The Predator's the default pistol, it will inevitably appear places where there's no symbolism. That doesn't mean there can't ever be any with it at all, that's silly.

[DoomsdayDevice]

I'm off for now, ppl.

TTYL =)

[BleedingUranium]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I'm off for now, ppl.

TTYL =)

See ya DD

SwobyJ wrote...

Oh hi everyone.

Hi Swoby!

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 28 décembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[CmdrShep80]

Btw as a slight side note - that Reaper shooting at things during the defend the missile batteries part of London...his beams can reach past the missile batteries. Why didn't the Reaper just shoot and destroy it? Particularly after the first one fires?

[BleedingUranium]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Btw as a slight side note - that Reaper shooting at things during the defend the missile batteries part of London...his beams can reach past the missile batteries. Why didn't the Reaper just shoot and destroy it? Particularly after the first one fires?

Because Destroyers suck at aiming

[CmdrShep80]

Also I'm playing it without sound and I don't know I heard a weird garbled voice. Couldn't make it out. I think it may just have been a few enemies dying at the same time though

EDIT TOP and what I mean is I'm just using sound effects, everything else is off.  I'm also taking my time.  It doesn't feel rushed like it did on my first playthrough.  Did they tweak something?

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 28 décembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[CmdrShep80]

BleedingUranium wrote...

The Predator's the default pistol, it will inevitably appear places where there's no symbolism. That doesn't mean there can't ever be any with it at all, that's silly.

The idea is just assume 100% the predator is symbolized as freedom from indoctrination.  I'm wondering if we're looking at the scene wrong by focusing too much on the players and not the symbol