80611 réponses à ce sujet

[DoomsdayDevice]

Spot will be back. I hope.

If not, I'll grab him by the hair and drag him in here.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I want spotlessvoid back as well as Rifneno. Please come back and stay with us.

[masster blaster]

Okay so what if the Catalyst fused itself with Harbinger. I know I have said this, but I would like to bring it up again. The way the Catalyst talks about Organics look for perfection, while the Synthetics look for emotions/ singularity. What if that's what it wanted in the first place. It couldn't feel anything, nor was complete. It needed an Organics host to complete it's full functions. So maybe he told his creator he found a solution, and told his creator to build a Synthetics Leviathan out of it's image. HE could have told his creator by installing him ( his creator) inside the Synthetic body he could gain control of the Synthetics, however his creator did not know that the brat was going to turn him into Organics genetic material.

When that happened, it uploaded it's mind into the Leviathan
Synthetics body, and thus Harbinger was born. Yet His creators genetic
material/ who he was, corrupted his programming, and thus Harbinger got
the idea that he is the apex of evolution. And now that Shepard has
changed everything. Harbinger wants Shepard to fuse with Shepard, so he
can become the ultimate Apex Predator

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 janvier 2013 - 10:49 .

[masster blaster]

CoolioThane wrote...

"rif...we need you....only hope"

And has estebanusister seriously left because of what I said?

See, rif...Top for you

Wait what?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I could PM you the part thats relevent if you'd like, dorktainian. Itll have to wait until I have access to a PC instead of this Xbox but you are tired now anyway.

[Restrider]

Sonashi wrote...


Also I'm a bit suprised that I found my name on that Indoctrinationist list from page 3000.

*Checks list for the first time*
*Sees he is not on the list*
This is an outrage.
*Hides in his corner and cries himself to sleep*

[masster blaster]

Restrider wrote...

Sonashi wrote...


Also I'm a bit suprised that I found my name on that Indoctrinationist list from page 3000.

*Checks list for the first time*
*Sees he is not on the list*
This is an outrage.
*Hides in his corner and cries himself to sleep*

Restrider it's an old list. we have to make some huge chages it will take time, but imagen what it would look like.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Restrider wrote...

Sonashi wrote...


Also I'm a bit suprised that I found my name on that Indoctrinationist list from page 3000.

*Checks list for the first time*
*Sees he is not on the list*
This is an outrage.
*Hides in his corner and cries himself to sleep*

That isn't the only inaccuracy of the list. I'm guessing 70% of the people on that list turned literalist after EC came out. It still lists estebanus and megumi as indoctrinationists, for one.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 01 janvier 2013 - 10:52 .

[BansheeOwnage]

I had an epiphany. What if we've been looking at this wrong the whole time? What if people have been putting too much weight on exactly what this "Intelligence" is?

dorktainian wrote...
To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us. It chose our kind as the first harvest. From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger.

I direct you to the Mass Effect 2: The Story So Far trailer. It's awesome in and of itself, with TIM narrating it. But one very specific section is relevant to my idea.

"50000 years ago, an ancient race - the Protheans - was destroyed by a mysterious artificial intelligence known as : The Reapers."

What if the "Intelligence" is the reapers? In that trailer, TIM referred to the reapers an a single intelligence, somewhat like the geth.

This could mean any number of things. It doesn't even mean there is an entity like the Guardian. Or maybe Harbinger is the reapers? As in, the rest of them are slaves, and he is the only truly independent one? Or perhaps in the sense that they are all part of him. Maybe killing him would defeat the rest? Or maybe I'm crazy? What do you think?

[nightcobra]

 i always saw the harvesting cycle as a way for the reapers to perform a slow synthesis type solution, with each passing cycle *preserving* the most advanced species of said cycle and then integrating the acquired materials and knowledge into themselves in order to *upgrade* slowly moving towards their own idea of perfection but never quite reaching it (since there's no such thing as a perfect being no matter how biologically or culturally advanced you are) 

[BansheeOwnage]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I want spotlessvoid back as well as Rifneno. Please come back and stay with us.

And Estebanusister!

[DoomsdayDevice]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I had an epiphany. What if we've been looking at this wrong the whole time? What if people have been putting too much weight on exactly what this "Intelligence" is?

dorktainian wrote...
To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us. It chose our kind as the first harvest. From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger.

I direct you to the Mass Effect 2: The Story So Far trailer. It's awesome in and of itself, with TIM narrating it. But one very specific section is relevant to my idea.

"50000 years ago, an ancient race - the Protheans - was destroyed by a mysterious artificial intelligence known as : The Reapers."

What if the "Intelligence" is the reapers? In that trailer, TIM referred to the reapers an a single intelligence, somewhat like the geth.

This could mean any number of things. It doesn't even mean there is an entity like the Guardian. Or maybe Harbinger is the reapers? As in, the rest of them are slaves, and he is the only truly independent one? Or perhaps in the sense that they are all part of him. Maybe killing him would defeat the rest? Or maybe I'm crazy? What do you think?

Didn't we speculate that possibility like fifty times before?

It's certainly possible.

I have proposed the same idea, but people said it would be lame, as it would allow us to take out all of the Reapers by defeating just one of them, in a 'take out the droid control ship' scenario.

Perhaps every newly built Reaper enhances Harbinger's intelligence. Sort of like the Geth.

[masster blaster]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I had an epiphany. What if we've been looking at this wrong the whole time? What if people have been putting too much weight on exactly what this "Intelligence" is?

dorktainian wrote...
To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us. It chose our kind as the first harvest. From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger.

I direct you to the Mass Effect 2: The Story So Far trailer. It's awesome in and of itself, with TIM narrating it. But one very specific section is relevant to my idea.

"50000 years ago, an ancient race - the Protheans - was destroyed by a mysterious artificial intelligence known as : The Reapers."

What if the "Intelligence" is the reapers? In that trailer, TIM referred to the reapers an a single intelligence, somewhat like the geth.

This could mean any number of things. It doesn't even mean there is an entity like the Guardian. Or maybe Harbinger is the reapers? As in, the rest of them are slaves, and he is the only truly independent one? Or perhaps in the sense that they are all part of him. Maybe killing him would defeat the rest? Or maybe I'm crazy? What do you think?

Well it's not like he is leading the Reapers right.

Earth is under attack and he is leading the Reapers at Earth, and he is not the trying to stop you from reaching the beam, only to let Shepard live/ go up on the Citadel.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

NC(is it ok to call you that nightcobra?)
I'm with you on that. The Catalyst fell to self-created faulty logic.

i srsly need to get to a computer to post relevant parts of comparison to current discussion. BRB.

[MegumiAzusa]

dorktainian wrote...

[...]
[/i]
Leviathan: '' Before the cycles, our kind was the apex of life in the galaxy. The lesser species were in our thrall, serving our needs. We grew more powerful, and they were cared for. But we could not protect them from themselves. Over time, the species built machines that then destroyed them. Tribute does not flow from a dead race. To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us. It chose our kind as the first harvest. From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger''.  

Notice the singular use of Harbinger.  Was one of the Leviathans used for the first reaper?  Was harbinger a test subject for the solution?  Did the leviathans realising what was happening with harbinger and go into hiding?  When Harbinger was reaperfied, did others follow the same route?

You missed the "from our essence" part. It took what it thought was all Leviathans (at least the ones not killed), and melted it down like the Normandy crew and then created Harbinger from the goo.

I am basing this part of the overall question on Cerberus.  Lets say the Solution involves creating thralls to do their bidding.  With humanity it was cerberus.  Was there a leviathan equivelent?  A Leviathan splinter group - much like cerberus - augmented with technology that eventually became a ruling class?  Forcing the others into hiding?

No, as you quote later "our extermination was not complete [...]" They were either killed or melted like the Protheans. Factions like Cerberus are just a means to an end, not a necessity.

Also as i mentioned earlier.  the whole line..''Tribute does not flow from a dead race'' really bothers me.  When the reapers assend a race - they do not class this as killing off the race.  they are in their opinions helping and assending them.  Assension through destruction.  Are the reapers a way of acknowledging Tribute from the main species of each cycle?  An indoctrinated person offers tribute and then their race is slusho'd, made into a reaper with the indoctrinated persons personality matrix... an everlasting tribute?  is this possible?

No. The purpose given was "to preserve life at any cost".

''Shepard: And now we all pay the price for your mistake.
Leviathan: There was no mistake, it still serves its purpose.''    

so it is still doing what it was designed to do.  While the Leviathans hide in their deep underwater cave.

Yes.

''You have penetrated the darkness''

err.... hang on a minute.  He's just taken a trip down to the bottom of the ocean looking for evidence of the Leviathan.  What do you mean?  Is there more going on here than what we see?

It means that you found out where the Leviathans are hiding.

''Shepard: How did the intelligence defeat you?
Leviathan: To find a solution, it required information - physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos. It created an army of pawns that searched the galaxy, gathering this data.''

Does this mean it created the reapers? Or did it indoctrinate the Leviathans and have them do the work for it?

Melting Leviathans into goo, then processing the organic material, also experimenting like the collectors.

[...]

''Shepard: Tell me about the Reapers.
Leviathan: Each harvest ends with the birth of a Reaper. Perfect in its design. Each formed in Harbinger's image. Our image. Each Reaper has the power to influence organics. Over countless cycles, this ability was refined, perfected, and gave rise to indoctrination.''


''Shepard: But what's the point of all these harvests?
Leviathan: The intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled. It directed the Reapers to create the mass relays, to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency. The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool.''

Like I said about the Tributes comment.  They are trying to preserve life and tributes.  one race from each cycle is preserved as tribute - an everlasting reminder.

No. They are only trying to preserve life. The new solution where evolution is tool is found in Synthesis.

''Shepard: Will it ever end?
Leviathan: Unknown. Until the intelligence finds what it's looking for, the harvest will continue.''

Judging by my theory the harvests will always continue because no race will ever be able to oppose them to an extent that the reapers are beaten due to the 50,000 year time limit.  or maybe it's looking for the right answer to the conflict?

Synthesis.

''Shepard: What do you know about the Crucible?
Leviathan: [thinks for a second] We have watched its construction before, it has never been completed. Those who have tried still fell victim to the harvest. Its outcome is unknown.''  


That is imo a lie.  There is more to this than Leviathan is letting on.

My theory is each cycle completes it up to the Catalyst.  Thats the whole point of the crudible.  one person makes it.  he is offered with a choice.  that person is indoctrinated enough to pick an option the catalyst wants... thus he is taken away and used as the personality matrix of the new reaper.

No. It was the first time. That's why the current solution doesn't work anymore.

If you notice in the control ending... the citadel closes.  Why is this?  They are constructing the human reaper.  That aint good.[b].

You can assume it has to be closed for transport as it and the Reapers are flying away.

[BansheeOwnage]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I had an epiphany. What if we've been looking at this wrong the whole time? What if people have been putting too much weight on exactly what this "Intelligence" is?

dorktainian wrote...
To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us. It chose our kind as the first harvest. From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger.

I direct you to the Mass Effect 2: The Story So Far trailer. It's awesome in and of itself, with TIM narrating it. But one very specific section is relevant to my idea.

"50000 years ago, an ancient race - the Protheans - was destroyed by a mysterious artificial intelligence known as : The Reapers."

What if the "Intelligence" is the reapers? In that trailer, TIM referred to the reapers an a single intelligence, somewhat like the geth.

This could mean any number of things. It doesn't even mean there is an entity like the Guardian. Or maybe Harbinger is the reapers? As in, the rest of them are slaves, and he is the only truly independent one? Or perhaps in the sense that they are all part of him. Maybe killing him would defeat the rest? Or maybe I'm crazy? What do you think?

Didn't we speculate that possibility like fifty times before?

I guess I missed that somehow. My main point was just that there doesn't have to be a single entity like the "Catalyst" as the "Intelligence". It could be all of the reapers that they were referring to.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@Banshee
what?! Estebanusister left too? Why?

[Eryri]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Or maybe Harbinger is the reapers? As in, the rest of them are slaves, and he is the only truly independent one? Or perhaps in the sense that they are all part of him. Maybe killing him would defeat the rest? Or maybe I'm crazy? What do you think?

Didn't we speculate that possibility like fifty times before?

It's certainly possible.

I have proposed the same idea, but people said it would be lame, as it would allow us to take out all of the Reapers by defeating just one of them, in a 'take out the droid control ship' scenario.

Perhaps every newly built Reaper enhances Harbinger's intelligence. Sort of like the Geth.

Yes. I like the idea of Harbinger being on a megalomonaical quest to become more and more Godlike by assimilating new species. In fact I even wrote a little villain monologue fanfic, for him to say in my personal fantasy IT reveal DLC:

By the way I'd also be very sad to see anyone go from the thread. We need another literalist troll invasion. Nothing unites a group like a common enemy! 

Modifié par Eryri, 01 janvier 2013 - 11:25 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I had an epiphany. What if we've been looking at this wrong the whole time? What if people have been putting too much weight on exactly what this "Intelligence" is?

dorktainian wrote...
To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us. It chose our kind as the first harvest. From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger.

I direct you to the Mass Effect 2: The Story So Far trailer. It's awesome in and of itself, with TIM narrating it. But one very specific section is relevant to my idea.

"50000 years ago, an ancient race - the Protheans - was destroyed by a mysterious artificial intelligence known as : The Reapers."

What if the "Intelligence" is the reapers? In that trailer, TIM referred to the reapers an a single intelligence, somewhat like the geth.

This could mean any number of things. It doesn't even mean there is an entity like the Guardian. Or maybe Harbinger is the reapers? As in, the rest of them are slaves, and he is the only truly independent one? Or perhaps in the sense that they are all part of him. Maybe killing him would defeat the rest? Or maybe I'm crazy? What do you think?

Didn't we speculate that possibility like fifty times before?

I guess I missed that somehow. My main point was just that there doesn't have to be a single entity like the "Catalyst" as the "Intelligence". It could be all of the reapers that they were referring to.

I understand. And yeah, it's possible. It's great how there are still so many unanswered questions.

[BansheeOwnage]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Also as i mentioned earlier.  the whole line..''Tribute does not flow from a dead race'' really bothers me.  When the reapers assend a race - they do not class this as killing off the race.  they are in their opinions helping and assending them.  Assension through destruction.  Are the reapers a way of acknowledging Tribute from the main species of each cycle?  An indoctrinated person offers tribute and then their race is slusho'd, made into a reaper with the indoctrinated persons personality matrix... an everlasting tribute?  is this possible[/i]?

No. The purpose given was "to preserve life at any cost".

Believing the Leviathans 100% is almost as folly as trusting the Child 100%. Besides, the Child gives a different motivation. He was created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics specifically. And why don't the reapers preserve synthetics?

[BansheeOwnage]

Eryri wrote...

By the way I'd also be very sad to see anyone go from the thread. We need another literalist troll invasion. Nothing unites a group like a common enemy! 

It's a very interesting philosophical discussion in my opinion. Just like the reapers uniting everyone.

[DoomsdayDevice]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Believing the Leviathans 100% is almost as folly as trusting the Child 100%. Besides, the Child gives a different motivation. He was created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics specifically. And why don't the reapers preserve synthetics?

[umadcommander]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Eryri wrote...

By the way I'd also be very sad to see anyone go from the thread. We need another literalist troll invasion. Nothing unites a group like a common enemy! 

It's a very interesting philosophical discussion in my opinion. Just like the reapers uniting everyone.

none of us are beating the reapers alone

[umadcommander]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Believing the Leviathans 100% is almost as folly as trusting the Child 100%. Besides, the Child gives a different motivation. He was created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics specifically. And why don't the reapers preserve synthetics?

I AM LIMITLESS, YOU ARE BACTERIA - Harbinger

[Rifneno]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Eryri wrote...

By the way I'd also be very sad to see anyone go from the thread. We need another literalist troll invasion. Nothing unites a group like a common enemy! 

It's a very interesting philosophical discussion in my opinion. Just like the reapers uniting everyone.

They didn't really unite everyone though.  Especially those jackass quarians.  "The Reapers are invading!  This is the perfect time to start an unrelated war while everyone else is busy dealing with the threat that will destroy everything!"  I didn't think it was possible for a people to be that idiotic.