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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#76526
MegumiAzusa

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Also as i mentioned earlier.  the whole line..''Tribute does not flow from a dead race'' really bothers me.  When the reapers assend a race - they do not class this as killing off the race.  they are in their opinions helping and assending them.  Assension through destruction.  Are the reapers a way of acknowledging Tribute from the main species of each cycle?  An indoctrinated person offers tribute and then their race is slusho'd, made into a reaper with the indoctrinated persons personality matrix... an everlasting tribute?  is this possible[/i]?

No. The purpose given was "to preserve life at any cost".

Believing the Leviathans 100% is almost as folly as trusting the Child 100%. Besides, the Child gives a different motivation. He was created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics specifically. And why don't the reapers preserve synthetics?

Yes, because it was the reason for organics being destroyed. They build synthetics which kills them, as Leviathan said in one of his first statements.
There is no mention if they do or if they don't. Some parts of the synthetics could be integrated into the Reaper of that cycle.

#76527
Restrider

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dorktainian wrote...

--snip--

My theory is each cycle completes it up to the Catalyst.  Thats the whole point of the crudible.  one person makes it.  he is offered with a choice.  that person is indoctrinated enough to pick an option the catalyst wants... thus he is taken away and used as the personality matrix of the new reaper. 

If you notice in the control ending... the citadel closes.  Why is this?  They are constructing the human reaper.  That aint good.[/i].


apologies for the formatting but i'm shattered and i've got to be up in't morning...work..    
Night all.  keep up the good work.  

oh dear god...just confirm IT already


:devil:


Interesting thoughts. Is it really out of place to speculate about different factions in the Leviathan society? Maybe one part was pro-Synthesis - if you want to call it like that - and transformed itself into the Reapers and the remnants are now hiding.

I have to question the bolded part, though:
In your theory, are the choices really happening, are the some kind of WNT or only limited to Shepard's mind?

If they had an actual effect, this theory resembles a lot the Deception Theory with its logic and all of its flaws.

#76528
Hanako Ikezawa

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These seem relevant to the discussions at hand, so I'm posting them:

A) Origins
     
     “You wouldn't dare destroy such an important source of knowledge." - Dwarf in the Flask

     “We created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost." - Leviathan


     In Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, the Dwarf in the Flask was created by an Xerxean alchemist using the blood of Van Hohenheim to create a source of knowledge to aid in his research of finding a way to create the perfect being. This gained the attention of the King of Xerxes, who was aging and seeking a way to become immortal, and ordered the alchemist to come forward with this source of information to aid in his goal. The Dwarf in the Flask agreed to aid the king as long as the king followed the Dwarf's instructions exactly.
     
     In Mass Effect, the Catalyst was created by the Leviathans as a source of intelligence to aid in finding a way to stop the conflicts between organics and synthetic life forms. The Leviathans saw that with this problem plaguing their servant races eliminated, their reign as the apex race would be an immortal one.

B) Betrayal

     “You said if we stood in the center of the circle, we wouldn't be harmed." - King of Xerxes

     “Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us." - Leviathan


     In Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, the King of Xrexes accepted the Dwarf in the Flask's terms and followed his instructions to create a giant Transmutation Circle that spanned the area of the entire kingdom of Xerxes. The Dwarf then told the king that in order to obtain immortality for himself and his top staff that the entire population of Xerxes would have to be sacrificed to create a Philosopher's Stone within those who stood in the center of the circle when it was activated. However, the Dwarf in the Flask had deceived the king and his advisors by making them think they were standing in the center. In reality, the center of the circle was where the Dwarf in the Flask and his now loyal friend Van Hohenheim, unaware of the deception, were located, and thus the entire kingdom was destroyed to bestow upon the two of them immortal bodies, aiding Dwarf in the Flask's reason of creation in the first place, through the Philosopher's Stone. As a sign of appreciation for aiding in his birth, the Dwarf in the Flask based his new body in the same form as Hohenheim. 

     In Mass Effect, the Catalyst watched the fighting between organic and synthetic life and discovered the solution to the problem was not only synthetic life, but organic life as well. Following his programming,  the Catalyst decided the best way to stop both forms of life from destroying each other was to preserve their essence inside an organic-synthetic hybrid. Acting fast, the Catalyst mislead and betrayed the Leviathans and harvested them for this solution first, since they were the most advanced race and thus the largest threat to the then powerless Catalyst as well as being the top priority of preserving in the perfect form and aid in his purpose. As a way to acknowledge the Leviathans aid in his creation, the Catalyst based this new perfect design, later known as Reaper, in their form.

...

E) Final Goal

     "I have done what I set out to do: acquire God." - Father

    “I am only facilitating their request." - Catalyst


     In Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Father's true goal is to simply do what he was created to do in the first place: learn. He discovered that the only way to learn everything was to acquire the power equivalent to that as God by obtaining a perfect state of being. He deduces that the only way this is possible is to obtain that much power is through the Philosopher's Stone. With that power, he would be able to open the Gateway of Truth and assimilate all knowledge inside, and thus obtaining the power and knowledge equivalent to that of God. Everything he ever did, from obtaining a body to creating the Homunculi, was to aid him in that process.

     In Mass Effect, the Catalyst's true goal is to fulfill his programming: preserve all organic life. He discovered that the only way to do that was through the harvesting, processing, and preserving of all advanced life in the form of the Reapers. The Catalyst viewed the Reaper solution as perfect, or at least the best way to preserve life possible until he was smart enough to find an even better solution. With each Reaper constructed and having that races knowledge within it, the Catalyst, having the collective knowledge of all Reapers, would eventually be able to figure out this final, ultimate solution to the program he was created to fix.

...

C) Flawed Logic
 
     “You insist on treating humans as a lower lifeform, but don’t you see: only through them can a Philosopher’s stone be created, and only through a stone can a Homunculus arise, but what does a Homunculus produce? What do you create? Creation is all and you’ve done nothing but destroy. You may think you’ve reached a perfect state of being, but in truth all you’ve reached is a dead end.” – Van Hohenheim
 
     “But you’re taking away our future. Without a future, we have no hope. Without hope…we may as well be machines, programmed to do what we’re told.”  – Commander Shepard

 
     In Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Father’s ultimate goal was to obtain the perfect state of being. However, his actions actually contradicted his goals. Mainly, he separated his seven desires from himself to remove distraction and dedicate himself fully to obtaining knowledge. However, this robbed him of perspective and thus extinguished any chance he had to fully understanding this world, and thus become equal to a perfect being.
 
     In Mass Effect, the Catalyst’s ultimate goal is to find a solution for the organic versus synthetic conflicts that keep occurring. Mainly, he uses the Reapers to preserve those races before they completely annihilate each other completely and add to his intelligence.  However, this robs him of fully obtaining each race’s perspective of the situation and also goes against what he was created to do by destroying life in order to save it.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 01 janvier 2013 - 11:24 .


#76529
nightcobra

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

NC(is it ok to call you that nightcobra?)
I'm with you on that. The Catalyst fell to self-created faulty logic.

i srsly need to get to a computer to post relevant parts of comparison to current discussion. BRB.


fine by me;)

my personal take on it is that the reapers took this cycle route in order to better serve its core programming, to make peace between organics and synthetics...now, the reapers with this in mind are betting on the long term...the really looooong term, let's see if i can explain myself.
like i said before, the reapers chose the harvesting cycle method in order to preserve life in reaper form and upgrade said forms with the material and knowledge gathered as a slow synthesis solution method in which the reapers would continue to do the cycles until the difference between organic and synthetic is pretty much negligible.

And to us that would take a near infinite amount of years, better yet a near infinite amount of cycles but since the reapers are unaffected by time this isn't a problematic factor for them and so in order to create peace between organics and synthetics the reapers chose to be the demons of the galaxy and assimilate the most advanced species of each cycle and in so doing so creating reapers that are as much as organic as they are synthetic, so much so that there isn't almost a line separating the two anymore negating the reason for organic/synthetic conflict in their perspective . 

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 01 janvier 2013 - 11:25 .


#76530
Rifneno

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I'm going to stick with the good old fashioned "beyond our comprehension." The Lovecraftian Horror is part of what made this magic.

#76531
masster blaster

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Also as i mentioned earlier.  the whole line..''Tribute does not flow from a dead race'' really bothers me.  When the reapers assend a race - they do not class this as killing off the race.  they are in their opinions helping and assending them.  Assension through destruction.  Are the reapers a way of acknowledging Tribute from the main species of each cycle?  An indoctrinated person offers tribute and then their race is slusho'd, made into a reaper with the indoctrinated persons personality matrix... an everlasting tribute?  is this possible[/i]?

No. The purpose given was "to preserve life at any cost".

Believing the Leviathans 100% is almost as folly as trusting the Child 100%. Besides, the Child gives a different motivation. He was created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics specifically. And why don't the reapers preserve synthetics?

Yes, because it was the reason for organics being destroyed. They build synthetics which kills them, as Leviathan said in one of his first statements.
There is no mention if they do or if they don't. Some parts of the synthetics could be integrated into the Reaper of that cycle.


T doubt the Synthetics just started to kill their creators for no reason. More like the Leviathans forced their thralls to Destroy the Synthetics because they could not control the Synthetics, and when their thralls were being over runned they created the brat.

#76532
DoomsdayDevice

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"Establishing connections" between synthetics and organics.

Gives me a good chuckle every time I hear that line.

#76533
Restrider

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Random question that actually is interesting:
How do you think would Leviathan husks look like?
Like Sovereign Reapers?

Someone suggested that maybe the Reapers we see, are nothing more than Levi-Husks.

#76534
BansheeOwnage

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Believing the Leviathans 100% is almost as folly as trusting the Child 100%. Besides, the Child gives a different motivation. He was created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics specifically. And why don't the reapers preserve synthetics?

Yes, because it was the reason for organics being destroyed. They build synthetics which kills them, as Leviathan said in one of his first statements.
There is no mention if they do or if they don't. Some parts of the synthetics could be integrated into the Reaper of that cycle.

Leviathan was written after the end. Why not have it say "We created an intelligence to halt the conflict between organics and synthetics" or something, just to be consistent? Also something I thought of:

I don't usually preserve life by putting them into starships, but when I do, I use them as cannon fodder.

#76535
masster blaster

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

"Establishing connections" between synthetics and organics.

Gives me a good chuckle every time I hear that line.


Shepard: What connection? You forced the Geth to attack the  their creators, organics. How is that protecting Organic life?

#76536
Hanako Ikezawa

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nightcobra8928 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

NC(is it ok to call you that nightcobra?)
I'm with you on that. The Catalyst fell to self-created faulty logic.

i srsly need to get to a computer to post relevant parts of comparison to current discussion. BRB.


fine by me;)

my personal take on it is that the reapers took this cycle route in order to better serve its core programming, to make peace between organics and synthetics...now, the reapers with this in mind are betting on the long term...the really looooong term, let's see if i can explain myself.
like i said before, the reapers chose the harvesting cycle method in order to preserve life in reaper form and upgrade said forms with the material and knowledge gathered as a slow synthesis solution method in which the reapers would continue to do the cycles until the difference between organic and synthetic is pretty much negligible.

And to us that would take a near infinite amount of years, better yet a near infinite amount of cycles but since the reapers are unaffected by time this isn't a problematic factor for them and so in order to create peace between organics and synthetics the reapers chose to be the demons of the galaxy and assimilate the most advanced species of each cycle and in so doing so creating reapers that are as much as organic as they are synthetic, so much so that there isn't almost a line separating the two anymore negating the reason for organic/synthetic conflict in their perspective . 


We are on a very similar page, look at my post above yours for my interpretation

#76537
Rifneno

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Restrider wrote...

Random question that actually is interesting:
How do you think would Leviathan husks look like?
Like Sovereign Reapers?

Someone suggested that maybe the Reapers we see, are nothing more than Levi-Husks.


It's possible.  Though it's also possible the opposite is true: the "Leviathans" are just capital ships playing dress up to play more mind games with Shepard.

#76538
MegumiAzusa

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nightcobra8928 wrote...

i'll go with the tried and true route of "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

Let's assume that shepard's breath scene is on the citadel...taking into account that shepard had no shields and armor as well being badly wounded, the blast from the citadel's explosion gives a 100% guarantee that anything alive near shepard's vicinity would be turned into a crisp, if not vaporized entirely.
If by some freak chance shepard manages to survive we have to take into account that the citadel blew up and got torn apart so there's a very good chance that whatever equipment keeps the place shepard's in breathable and pressurized condition is malfunctioning or even deactivated leaving shepard's barely alive body at the mercy of space's vaccum.
 
Now then let's move on to the possibility that the breath scene takes place on earth...if shepard was indeed on the citadel and then was thrown towards earth due to the explosion, then we hit the same wall as in the first point, point being that shepard has a 0% chance of survival under those conditions and the ones before mentioned like lack of any shields or armor. like we've seen in ME2, shepard *died* due to the reentry damage and in that scenario shepard had a full suit of shielded armor as well as lacked a citadel sized explosion proppeling shepard into orbit.

Then the only scenario in which the breath scene Can occur is if shepard never left earth at all.

Uhm you make a point about removing everything impossible, then go on to say Shep on the Citadel is merely improbable because of "there's a very good chance [of equipment failure]" which doesn't say it's impossible.

#76539
DoomsdayDevice

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Restrider wrote...

Random question that actually is interesting:
How do you think would Leviathan husks look like?
Like Sovereign Reapers?

Someone suggested that maybe the Reapers we see, are nothing more than Levi-Husks.


Well maybe that's what they would look like, but if the Reapers are 'just husks', they would be mindless zombies, doing Harbinger's bidding. The Reapers seem way too self-aware for that.

Although I've thought it possible for destroyers, like the Rannoch Reaper, who dies as soon as you tell him the race he was harvested from died ages ago.

#76540
byne

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Rifneno wrote...

They didn't really unite everyone though.  Especially those jackass quarians.  "The Reapers are invading!  This is the perfect time to start an unrelated war while everyone else is busy dealing with the threat that will destroy everything!"  I didn't think it was possible for a people to be that idiotic.


Your problem there was expecting the quarians to be rational about the geth, when their entire history proves them to be incapable of doing so.

Modifié par byne, 01 janvier 2013 - 11:28 .


#76541
BansheeOwnage

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Restrider wrote...

Random question that actually is interesting:
How do you think would Leviathan husks look like?
Like Sovereign Reapers?

Someone suggested that maybe the Reapers we see, are nothing more than Levi-Husks.

Wow that would be a pain to fight. They're huge! But they are not 2km long. So no, we haven't fought any.

#76542
MegumiAzusa

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masster blaster wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Also as i mentioned earlier.  the whole line..''Tribute does not flow from a dead race'' really bothers me.  When the reapers assend a race - they do not class this as killing off the race.  they are in their opinions helping and assending them.  Assension through destruction.  Are the reapers a way of acknowledging Tribute from the main species of each cycle?  An indoctrinated person offers tribute and then their race is slusho'd, made into a reaper with the indoctrinated persons personality matrix... an everlasting tribute?  is this possible[/i]?

No. The purpose given was "to preserve life at any cost".

Believing the Leviathans 100% is almost as folly as trusting the Child 100%. Besides, the Child gives a different motivation. He was created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics specifically. And why don't the reapers preserve synthetics?

Yes, because it was the reason for organics being destroyed. They build synthetics which kills them, as Leviathan said in one of his first statements.
There is no mention if they do or if they don't. Some parts of the synthetics could be integrated into the Reaper of that cycle.


T doubt the Synthetics just started to kill their creators for no reason. More like the Leviathans forced their thralls to Destroy the Synthetics because they could not control the Synthetics, and when their thralls were being over runned they created the brat.

No one forced the Quarians.

#76543
masster blaster

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Random question that actually is interesting:
How do you think would Leviathan husks look like?
Like Sovereign Reapers?

Someone suggested that maybe the Reapers we see, are nothing more than Levi-Husks.

Wow that would be a pain to fight. They're huge! But they are not 2km long. So no, we haven't fought any.


That's what the Citadel is for. The Citadel arms are Dragon's teeth. They were used to put the Leviathans on, and huskify them.

#76544
masster blaster

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Also as i mentioned earlier.  the whole line..''Tribute does not flow from a dead race'' really bothers me.  When the reapers assend a race - they do not class this as killing off the race.  they are in their opinions helping and assending them.  Assension through destruction.  Are the reapers a way of acknowledging Tribute from the main species of each cycle?  An indoctrinated person offers tribute and then their race is slusho'd, made into a reaper with the indoctrinated persons personality matrix... an everlasting tribute?  is this possible[/i]?

No. The purpose given was "to preserve life at any cost".

Believing the Leviathans 100% is almost as folly as trusting the Child 100%. Besides, the Child gives a different motivation. He was created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics specifically. And why don't the reapers preserve synthetics?

Yes, because it was the reason for organics being destroyed. They build synthetics which kills them, as Leviathan said in one of his first statements.
There is no mention if they do or if they don't. Some parts of the synthetics could be integrated into the Reaper of that cycle.


T doubt the Synthetics just started to kill their creators for no reason. More like the Leviathans forced their thralls to Destroy the Synthetics because they could not control the Synthetics, and when their thralls were being over runned they created the brat.

No one forced the Quarians.


True, but these are the Leviathans. The so called apex race. The ones that used their powers to control the lesser organics. Ya they wouldn't do that.

#76545
nightcobra

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

i'll go with the tried and true route of "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

Let's assume that shepard's breath scene is on the citadel...taking into account that shepard had no shields and armor as well being badly wounded, the blast from the citadel's explosion gives a 100% guarantee that anything alive near shepard's vicinity would be turned into a crisp, if not vaporized entirely.
If by some freak chance shepard manages to survive we have to take into account that the citadel blew up and got torn apart so there's a very good chance that whatever equipment keeps the place shepard's in breathable and pressurized condition is malfunctioning or even deactivated leaving shepard's barely alive body at the mercy of space's vaccum.
 
Now then let's move on to the possibility that the breath scene takes place on earth...if shepard was indeed on the citadel and then was thrown towards earth due to the explosion, then we hit the same wall as in the first point, point being that shepard has a 0% chance of survival under those conditions and the ones before mentioned like lack of any shields or armor. like we've seen in ME2, shepard *died* due to the reentry damage and in that scenario shepard had a full suit of shielded armor as well as lacked a citadel sized explosion proppeling shepard into orbit.

Then the only scenario in which the breath scene Can occur is if shepard never left earth at all.

Uhm you make a point about removing everything impossible, then go on to say Shep on the Citadel is merely improbable because of "there's a very good chance [of equipment failure]" which doesn't say it's impossible.


well to me, i'm 100% certain that any electronic equipment near shepard is fried based on this picture

Posted Image

other people might say otherwise, though for me it's pretty clear that no type of equipment would be running after that.

#76546
MegumiAzusa

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Believing the Leviathans 100% is almost as folly as trusting the Child 100%. Besides, the Child gives a different motivation. He was created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics specifically. And why don't the reapers preserve synthetics?

Yes, because it was the reason for organics being destroyed. They build synthetics which kills them, as Leviathan said in one of his first statements.
There is no mention if they do or if they don't. Some parts of the synthetics could be integrated into the Reaper of that cycle.

Leviathan was written after the end. Why not have it say "We created an intelligence to halt the conflict between organics and synthetics" or something, just to be consistent? Also something I thought of:

I don't usually preserve life by putting them into starships, but when I do, I use them as cannon fodder.

But it's already consistent. The devs said more then once that usually no Reaper is ever destroyed in a Cycle.

#76547
DoomsdayDevice

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masster, I can't help but notice your spelling, grammar and formatting have improved considerably.

Is that really you? :D

#76548
Hrothdane

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byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

They didn't really unite everyone though.  Especially those jackass quarians.  "The Reapers are invading!  This is the perfect time to start an unrelated war while everyone else is busy dealing with the threat that will destroy everything!"  I didn't think it was possible for a people to be that idiotic.


Your problem there was expecting the quarians to be rational about the geth, when their entire history proves them to be incapable of doing so.


The problem is that they are acting like idiots for the very obvious reason that BioWare felt they needed to shoehorn in a geth/quarian war into the storyline of ME3.

People generally have a hard time tolerating idiocy in fiction when that idiocy is clearly just a method for the writer to make something illogical or unpredictable happen. Ebert calls it an "Idiot Plot."

#76549
masster blaster

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jtav wrote...

But it is bad writing. ME3 is chock full of bad unsubtle writing. And now we're supposed to believe that a game that has never been subtle now depends on hints that it takes multiple documentaries to spell out? That they delayed paying DLC and spent money shoring up the "lies" of Synthesis and Control it instead of revealing their clever plan once the fanbase revolted? That they are continuing to lie despite the fact that the lie is costing them fans? Despite the fact that the game is very visibly rushed from Thessia on? Despite the fact that the leaked script shows no indication of IT and every indication that Synthesis was the reward for a perfect game?



How do you think I should answer this?

#76550
masster blaster

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

masster, I can't help but notice your spelling, grammar and formatting have improved considerably.

Is that really you? :D


Yes it's me, and are you DD?:)