80611 réponses à ce sujet

[paxxton]

lex0r11 wrote...

How can you trust this thing after a couple of lines? These solutions just pop up in the last 5 minutes of this cycle? Oh, because it's Sehaprd? THey could've done it sooner, they didnÄt need Shepard. Is he/she now Space Neo? The the chosen one in a universe that always tried to explain itself wit realism?

Please.

Again. How can you trust this thing? You think Shepard would willingly risk the entire galaxy on a hunch?

Perhaps not. Hence IT. But literally all endings are good.

[Dwailing]

Rifneno wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

iPoohCupCakes wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@paxx
No it does not. He still has his orders to follow. The order being "do whatever it takes to stop the reapers". From a literal point of view, the easiest option to stop them would be destroy. Everything eose involves uncertainties and risks, not to mention very questionable moral issues. Sacrifices (geth) in war are expected and widely accepted afterwards (big picture and all that). Robbing everyone of their very essence (humanity/turianity..whatever) is not.

Right, because geth are metal junk.

They are tools and benefit the organic lives. Nothing else. 

At first I was planning to respond to this by saying that the geth are alive just like any other race and be ready to defend my standpoint with a several pages long epic struggle.  Then I saw your name. :lol:  Any seriousness I may have approached you with is gone forever.

Name?  Watch the avatar.

Right, time to report for inappropriate content.  I mean come on, have some dignity people.

Modifié par Dwailing, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:48 .

[Samtheman63]

Dwailing wrote...

iPoohCupCakes wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@paxx
No it does not. He still has his orders to follow. The order being "do whatever it takes to stop the reapers". From a literal point of view, the easiest option to stop them would be destroy. Everything eose involves uncertainties and risks, not to mention very questionable moral issues. Sacrifices (geth) in war are expected and widely accepted afterwards (big picture and all that). Robbing everyone of their very essence (humanity/turianity..whatever) is not.

Right, because geth are metal junk.

They are tools and benefit the organic lives. Nothing else. 

At first I was planning to respond to this by saying that the geth are alive just like any other race and be ready to defend my standpoint with a several pages long epic struggle.  Then I saw your name. :lol:  Any seriousness I may have approached you with is gone forever.

geth are AI, A stands for artificial

man made robots build to make life easier for organics, if they can be sacrificed to destroy the biggest threat to all life in the galaxy, then really its a no-brainer

Modifié par Samtheman63, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:46 .

[Mello]

Dwailing wrote...

iPoohCupCakes wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@paxx
No it does not. He still has his orders to follow. The order being "do whatever it takes to stop the reapers". From a literal point of view, the easiest option to stop them would be destroy. Everything eose involves uncertainties and risks, not to mention very questionable moral issues. Sacrifices (geth) in war are expected and widely accepted afterwards (big picture and all that). Robbing everyone of their very essence (humanity/turianity..whatever) is not.

Right, because geth are metal junk.

They are tools and benefit the organic lives. Nothing else. 

At first I was planning to respond to this by saying that the geth are alive just like any other race and be ready to defend my standpoint with a several pages long epic struggle.  Then I saw your name. :lol:  Any seriousness I may have approached you with is gone forever.

Why thank you I take that as a compliment (I'm not a serious person anyways) and I love the Geth it's just that I don't think that they were such a big loss. 

[lex0r11]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Btw, as a side remark, it's fascinating to see how different Shepards with different opinions and moral standpoints collide here.

I don't even think that there are 3 different Shepards in the end. They just pissed away the Shepard that existed for the last 2.9 games.

Paragon and renegade would've nuked them back into the last cycle when these choice would've been presented in the first game.

My opinion. That's how I experienced Shepard. Not because Shepard is egocentric and unable to think about other solutions. Because controling or merging just goes against everything Shepard defended in all those games.

[byne]

paxxton wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

How can you trust this thing after a couple of lines? These solutions just pop up in the last 5 minutes of this cycle? Oh, because it's Sehaprd? THey could've done it sooner, they didnÄt need Shepard. Is he/she now Space Neo? The the chosen one in a universe that always tried to explain itself wit realism?

Please.

Again. How can you trust this thing? You think Shepard would willingly risk the entire galaxy on a hunch?

Perhaps not. Hence IT. But literally all endings are good.

I must destroy the Reapers!
No, Shepard, you ARE the Reapers!
And then everyone was robots.

Only one of these is good.

Modifié par byne, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:46 .

[Rifneno]

Yes, AI's don't count. Because brains aren't basically just organic computers or anything.

[Eryri]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Why do you want them dead if you can make them honestly friendly?

Because you can't make them honestly friendly.

QFT - "Making" anything "honestly friendly" is a contradiction in terms.

The most you can do, even if you take control literally, is to brainwash the Reapers into becoming docile. Way to sink to the Reaper's level Shepard!

[Dwailing]

paxxton wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

How can you trust this thing after a couple of lines? These solutions just pop up in the last 5 minutes of this cycle? Oh, because it's Sehaprd? THey could've done it sooner, they didnÄt need Shepard. Is he/she now Space Neo? The the chosen one in a universe that always tried to explain itself wit realism?

Please.

Again. How can you trust this thing? You think Shepard would willingly risk the entire galaxy on a hunch?

Perhaps not. Hence IT. But literally all endings are good.

No, they're not.  Literalism simply means viewing what's going on as actual events and not a hallucination.  That doesn't mean we should trust the Catalyst, that doesn't mean he's telling the truth, and that doesn't mean that Control and Synthesis are good.  There could be hundreds of things going on that we don't see that make the endings horrible.  And we don't know what could happen a couple thousand years down the road, as the slides only go out, what? a few hundred years?

[dorktainian]

I get the feeling Bioware is about to pull a plot twist.

[Steelcan]

byne wrote...

Coming from someone who picks 99.9% paragon options, I'd exterminate every race in the current cycle if it meant the Reapers died with them.

I don't hold them to the same standards as organics.  I would have no problem controlling them.  But the way Control is presented is just abysmal.  So I blow them to Hell.  Well I have a lot of reasons for killing them, but none of them are an inate desire to kill the reapers.

[Steelcan]

paxxton wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

How can you trust this thing after a couple of lines? These solutions just pop up in the last 5 minutes of this cycle? Oh, because it's Sehaprd? THey could've done it sooner, they didnÄt need Shepard. Is he/she now Space Neo? The the chosen one in a universe that always tried to explain itself wit realism?

Please.

Again. How can you trust this thing? You think Shepard would willingly risk the entire galaxy on a hunch?

Perhaps not. Hence IT. But literally all endings are good.

I have my issues with Control and Synthesis, but I don't deny they are a bright future.  Then there's refuse.

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Well, from a literal standpoint, Control is clearly the best ending.

Nope. Destroy is the only one that includes dead Reapers. Any ending without dead Reapers is not a good ending in any sense.

I dare to disagree.

Well then you'd be wrong.

Why do you want them dead if you can make them honestly friendly?

If you could make Josef Mengele honestly friendly would that make up for his crimes?

No. But he wouldn't be able to hurt anyone else.

You wouldn't want to see him punished for his actions?  Sometimes, we get so caught up in saving the innocent that we forget that the guilty must be punished as well.

Edit: Wow, top.

Yknow, I once listened to a lecture by Dan Dennett. He seems to think that changing one's thinking is all that has to be done to make a person good. That the body is not what really matters when one commits a crime. Of course, there was no means of rehabilitating in such a way after WWII.

And I do think that Mengele was a horrific abomination of a human being and deserved punishment.

[Dwailing]

dorktainian wrote...

I get the feeling Bioware is about to pull a plot twist.

Yes, I get that feeling, too.  I mean, that's why we're here.  We've found the evidence to suggest what that plot twist may be.  We're just not to the point that BioWare is willing to make the reveal.

[draconian139]

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

How can you trust this thing after a couple of lines? These solutions just pop up in the last 5 minutes of this cycle? Oh, because it's Sehaprd? THey could've done it sooner, they didnÄt need Shepard. Is he/she now Space Neo? The the chosen one in a universe that always tried to explain itself wit realism?

Please.

Again. How can you trust this thing? You think Shepard would willingly risk the entire galaxy on a hunch?

Perhaps not. Hence IT. But literally all endings are good.

I must destroy the Reapers!
No, Shepard, you ARE the Reapers!
And then everyone was robots.

Only one of these is good.

In the literal interpretation you actually do control the Reapers though, somehow all those independent nations agree to recognize you as their new godlike controller and obey the new AI!Shep commands instead of continuing to massacre everyone.  Of course in the literal interpretation Sheperd is an idiot for believing that it would work and the galaxy is incredibly lucky that it did...well at least for now.  

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Rifneno wrote...

Yes, AI's don't count. Because brains aren't basically just organic computers or anything.

Gotta agree here.

I dont sacrifice the Geth because they are machines. If the Catalyst had said all Turians or all Humans would die it would not have made a moments difference to me.

I sacrifice because the other options are even more horrendrous to me or not trustworthy.

Control may in theory save the most, but this comes 5 minutes after I talked down a Indoctrinated mastermind trying to control the Reapers with a long line of control failures following me through the games. Not going to happen.

As for Synthesis, Samara said it best in her mention of how killing or changing a person makes no difference, it is not the same person any longer either way. And make no mistake the galaxy and everyone in it is changed by Synthesis, people dont go from having their loved ones murdered brutally to beeing buddy buddy with the murderers by a green space wave without having some kind of alteration. Not even mentioning the physical change which is an abomination to everything natural.

Beyond that it has always been about breaking the Reaper cycle, breaking free of the path their have trapped us in. If we keep using their solutions we are not breaking free of anything. The Geth even echo this in telling us they wont to create their own future not be handed one by the old Machines.

It was with this in mind that I picked Destroy, not because I considered the Geth lesser.

[Steelcan]

draconian139 wrote...

byne wrote...

I must destroy the Reapers!
No, Shepard, you ARE the Reapers!
And then everyone was robots.

Only one of these is good.

In the literal interpretation you actually do control the Reapers though, somehow all those independent nations agree to recognize you as their new godlike controller and obey the new AI!Shep commands instead of continuing to massacre everyone.  Of course in the literal interpretation Sheperd is an idiot for believing that it would work and the galaxy is incredibly lucky that it did...well at least for now.  

Shepalyst indoctrinated the reapers

[Natabre]

Wow, I just read one of the links, Parabolee's Blog. I know I'm way behind on this, just finally got into ME and I gotta say that my mind's really BLOWN! Now I realize why this is extremely popular topic to debate and that people want answers for the ending, I don't even know what to think about ending anymore, lol. Impressive job with IT! Hope Bioware will clarify on the ending...if it ever comes.

(Sorry to butt in!)

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

How can you trust this thing after a couple of lines? These solutions just pop up in the last 5 minutes of this cycle? Oh, because it's Sehaprd? THey could've done it sooner, they didnÄt need Shepard. Is he/she now Space Neo? The the chosen one in a universe that always tried to explain itself wit realism?

Please.

Again. How can you trust this thing? You think Shepard would willingly risk the entire galaxy on a hunch?

Perhaps not. Hence IT. But literally all endings are good.

No, they're not.  Literalism simply means viewing what's going on as actual events and not a hallucination.  That doesn't mean we should trust the Catalyst, that doesn't mean he's telling the truth, and that doesn't mean that Control and Synthesis are good.  There could be hundreds of things going on that we don't see that make the endings horrible.  And we don't know what could happen a couple thousand years down the road, as the slides only go out, what? a few hundred years?

Then it's good ME3 is only a game.

[lex0r11]

Natabre wrote...

Wow, I just read one of the links, Parabolee's Blog. I know I'm way behind on this, just finally got into ME and I gotta say that my mind's really BLOWN! Now I realize why this is extremely popular topic to debate and that people want answers for the ending, I don't even know what to think about ending anymore, lol. Impressive job with IT! Hope Bioware will clarify on the ending...if it ever comes.

(Sorry to butt in!)

No need to be sorry.

Thank you for your comment and you are most welcome here!

[dorktainian]

Dwailing wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

I get the feeling Bioware is about to pull a plot twist.

Yes, I get that feeling, too.  I mean, that's why we're here.  We've found the evidence to suggest what that plot twist may be.  We're just not to the point that BioWare is willing to make the reveal.

yeah.  thinkin about this today (first day back at work after the xmas break) and their comment on the fact that they arnt changing the ending.  Lots of people saying they are.... but actually they dont need to change the ending do they?  only change the context of the ending.

I was thinking how they could do this... and then it struck me...

It really is simple.  change the POV.  have some DLC content - playable as one of the side characters..ie: garrus.  All they need to do is change the perception of what is going on (if IT is confirmed) or give more information on the lie that is the crudible.

[MaximizedAction]

lex0r11 wrote...
I don't even think that there are 3 different Shepards in the end. They just pissed away the Shepard that existed for the last 2.9 games.

Paragon and renegade would've nuked them back into the last cycle when these choice would've been presented in the first game.

My opinion. That's how I experienced Shepard. Not because Shepard is egocentric and unable to think about other solutions. Because controling or merging just goes against everything Shepard defended in all those games.

And I agree. What I meant was:
Watching this discussion where paxx is taking the standpoint of the forgiving one, who thinks that someone can redeem themselves no matter who, or what they used to be, or how many they killed.
Then there's byne, stating that "they deserve to die".

It's like where different countries have different policies with death sentences. If you really had the chance and time to ponder about the Reapers as a nation what would you do? Of course a time of war isn't that moment in time and neither is this thread. But still...

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:59 .

[Doveberry]

Andromidius wrote...
Oh, but he's forgiven for all his past crimes?  So long as he smiles and laughs and promises to be good?

The comparison with Mengele is odd. If we're going to get technical, it wasn't his fault that he was born with the mind of a sadistic psychopath. He was a horrible human being, but blaming him for it is useless. We are all the product of our genes, our past, and outside factors that influence us at any given moment. We do not "choose" (even though it often seems that way to us); we simply are.

I do, however, agree with the fact that the Reapers' continued existence should be determined on the basis of what kind of threat they are likely to pose in the future. If our goal is to preserve galactic civilization, then they pose much too great a risk. I do feel that destroying them is sad on some level (because of the enormous amount of information on past civilizations that has been preserved within the them), but I see that as a reasonable sacrifice for the sake of securing a future for extant civilizations. I view the destruction of the Geth in much the same way. It is sad (I am personally convinced that they are as much alive as the organic members of galactic society), but destroying the Reapers (and sacrificing the Geth in doing so) will create the best possible opportunity for civilization to have a future.

[byne]

MaximizedAction wrote...

And I agree. What I meant was:
Watching this discussion where paxx is taking the standpoint of the forgiving one, who thinks that someone can redeem themselves no matter who, or what they used to be, or how many they killed.
Then there's byne, stating that "they deserve to die".

It's like where different countries have different policies with death sentences. If you really had the chance and time to ponder about the Reapers as a nation what would you do? Of course a time of war isn't that moment in time and neither is this thread. But still...

I only say that because its true.

And for the record, I'm against the death penalty.

[lex0r11]

Please, paxxton. Please give me more than two lines of an answer about control.

This is driving me crazy!