80611 réponses à ce sujet

[smokingotter1]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

byne wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

And I agree. What I meant was:
Watching this discussion where paxx is taking the standpoint of the forgiving one, who thinks that someone can redeem themselves no matter who, or what they used to be, or how many they killed.
Then there's byne, stating that "they deserve to die".

It's like where different countries have different policies with death sentences. If you really had the chance and time to ponder about the Reapers as a nation what would you do? Of course a time of war isn't that moment in time and neither is this thread. But still...

I only say that because its true.

And for the record, I'm against the death penalty.

Isn't that a bit hypocritical? Wow! The thread is moving at FTL!

Common, comparing destroying the reapers to the death penalty? How many murderers on death row destroyed entire civilizations over god knows how long killing in numbers that would require mathematicians to calculate.

It has to be way more than trillions, not many people on death row have accomplished that feat. The difference in scale is unfathomable!

Modifié par smokingotter1, 02 janvier 2013 - 09:27 .

[Steelcan]

byne wrote...

Maybe you screwed up and it wasnt Legion in your game, but it was in mine.

Not what I meant.  He looked like Legion, sounded like Legion, said he was Legion, but Legion wouldn't want every geth hooked up to reaper upgrades.  "We refused the Old Machines gifts, geth build their own future"

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Steelcan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Reapers tried to control the geth and it backfired. But I'm sure Shepard could control the Reapers. </sarcasm>

Only because Shepard stepped in.  Had he not, the geth would have been under Control.  And had the reapers not interfered the quarians would have won easily.

And the fun part is both of those outcomes (and even if Shepard interferes either is still a very major possibility) are against the Catalyst stated goal for the Reapers, the preservation of Organic and Synthetic life. The Reapers are directly wiping out an entire race without preserving it, what does that say about the Catalyst's trustworthiness?

[byne]

Steelcan wrote...

byne wrote...

Maybe you screwed up and it wasnt Legion in your game, but it was in mine.

Not what I meant.  He looked like Legion, sounded like Legion, said he was Legion, but Legion wouldn't want every geth hooked up to reaper upgrades.  "We refused the Old Machines gifts, geth build their own future"

I bet you and DD would get along great.

[Steelcan]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

And the fun part is both of those outcomes (and even if Shepard interferes either is still a very major possibility) are against the Catalyst stated goal for the Reapers, the preservation of Organic and Synthetic life. The Reapers are directly wiping out an entire race without preserving it, what does that say about the Catalyst's trustworthiness?

This topic was discussed a good bit last night.  Mostly talking about what in Rannoch proves the little **** wrong

[MaximizedAction]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...
It's true that in ME3 Shepard is squarely supporting Destroying the Reapers and despises Control. That does mean Control might be viewed as suspicious (IT). But it's not an evil, bad option. It's the story that makes it look so.

But if the story portrays it as a bad idea, that means it's a bad idea in the context of that universe.  It may be a good idea in real life (Not saying it is), but that doesn't mean that it's a good idea in the universe of the game.

Ah, there it is, the sum up.

However: a story, even if fictional, better makes its audience sympathies or else it won't establish a connection. After all, it's mostly normally psyched human beings playing the game. And this is where the ending fails so spectacularly in contrast to the rest of the games. So bad, it must be on purpose.

The question is: what kind of reaction on the players did Bioware intend? That some eventually sympathies with the Reapers? That fans will start arguing about something as trivial and evident as destroying the Reapers?

We shall see soon...hopefully...

[Steelcan]

byne wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

byne wrote...

Maybe you screwed up and it wasnt Legion in your game, but it was in mine.

Not what I meant.  He looked like Legion, sounded like Legion, said he was Legion, but Legion wouldn't want every geth hooked up to reaper upgrades.  "We refused the Old Machines gifts, geth build their own future"

I bet you and DD would get along great.

DD?

[BansheeOwnage]

Dwailing wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Hey guys, you know what's better than talking about controversial political topics? NOT talking about controversial political topics.

Actually, I don't think it's a bad thing.  To discuss a story where there are parallels with controversial topics without addressing those topics would be wrong.  Either discuss the story and the controversial topics that it may address, or don't discuss it at all.  To say that it's bad to discuss the death penalty when discussing whether it's right to kill a race that has commited genocide and countless other crimes would be wrong, IMHO.  It's like saying that discussing opinions on socialism or free speech while discussing 1984 is bad.  At least, that's how I see it. 

Good point.

[paxxton]

lex0r11 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Please, paxxton. Please give me more than two lines of an answer about control.

This is driving me crazy!

The solutions pop up only in the last few minutes of the game because they are controversial. Many people might be upset if all of them were presented as equally legitimate throughout the series.

No, I mean what we have been talking about for the last pages. How any Shepard could justify to risk everything on a hunch to maybe control them or even consider the possibility to genetically F**K up the entire galaxy without their consent. Screw evolution.

You want someone forcing a DNA modifying drug on you that might make humanity better, because someone says so right before they give it to you after they stormed into your house in the middle of the night?

Well, it's not exactly how Synthesis happens. There are magical green rays of light that engulf everyone and immediately make them eternally happy. jk You are right - Synthesis should involve consent even though the concept is great.

Control? I guess it's just a game so I just like Control.

And now I really have to go. Bye everyone!

[byne]

Steelcan wrote...

byne wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

byne wrote...

Maybe you screwed up and it wasnt Legion in your game, but it was in mine.

Not what I meant.  He looked like Legion, sounded like Legion, said he was Legion, but Legion wouldn't want every geth hooked up to reaper upgrades.  "We refused the Old Machines gifts, geth build their own future"

I bet you and DD would get along great.

DD?

DoomsdayDevice. He thinks Legion is indoctrinated.

[smokingotter1]

byne wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

byne wrote...

Maybe you screwed up and it wasnt Legion in your game, but it was in mine.

Not what I meant.  He looked like Legion, sounded like Legion, said he was Legion, but Legion wouldn't want every geth hooked up to reaper upgrades.  "We refused the Old Machines gifts, geth build their own future"

I bet you and DD would get along great.

Even though my shepard got the quarians and geth to work together I was always a little iffy about the geth after ME3. Using reaper code? Legion lying again and again to Shepard. Lot of warning lights going off in my head.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Steelcan wrote...

byne wrote...

Maybe you screwed up and it wasnt Legion in your game, but it was in mine.

Not what I meant.  He looked like Legion, sounded like Legion, said he was Legion, but Legion wouldn't want every geth hooked up to reaper upgrades.  "We refused the Old Machines gifts, geth build their own future"

There are two reasons for this change the way I see it:

One is certain, the Geth are desperate and the upgrades are the only way they will survive. Legion knows this.

But the second is that most likely those are not Reaper upgrades anymore. Think back to the Thanix cannon, a gun reverse engineered from Sovereigns own guns. Similarly it is very possible (and likely if you ask me) Legion took what he could use from the Reaper code, repurposed it into something which would upgrade the Geth, but without the attachment of the Reapers. The fact that the Reapers are no longer under Reaper control supports this as it shows the code is no longer exactly the same (or the Geth would be back under control immediately).

It is taking the enemies technology, understanding it and making it your own by making your own version, just like the Thanix cannon. It is no longer Reaper tech even if it is where the understanding came from.

Someone used an example of a toaster made of radioactive materials. Sure you can use the toaster, but it is not healthy or you can simply use the toaster as basis for designing your own taster from a non harmful material.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 02 janvier 2013 - 09:34 .

[Eryri]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

If they want to pull IT through to its complete possibility, sadness is almost unavoidable. 

However I agree that ME3 has seen enough death and gloom already. I think that if you pull of everything perfectly you should be able to get through with a bare minimum of losses among the the known characters (Anderson is pretty much the only one I consider a certain goner almost no matter how this pans out). Obviusly the fleet will take a beating almost no matter what we do, but that is only faceless mooks (as harsh as that sounds).

A common thing I find in stories is that it is easy to give the reader / watcher a number on how many died, but without a face or a comparision it remains numbers, the ruthless calculus of war.

To give an example I have been to Pointe du Hoc in the Normandy, the cliff several soldiers scaled to take out a german gun emplacement on D-Day. The place has been preserved like it looked after the soldiers left it and you can see every crater and hole where bombs or shells fell. The power of a bomb is hard to truly comprehend until you stand in the crater unable to see over the edge cause it is so deep.

Also in the Normandy I stood at the graveyard for the American soldiers who fell. Seemingly endless rows of crosses as far as the eye went.

Or the nuke dropped on Hiroshima. The blast radius was just a number until i walked through the city and could see how much was once gone from a single blast.

It is those real life comparisions which gives the numbers form to me.

But a introduced and established character will always have form and value and thus hit harder than any number.

I found Anderson's goodbye, with the combination of the images of Earth and that lovely piece of music playing in the background incredibly moving. As you've said in other posts, a little sadness is necessary to make the story emotionally complete, and to make the happy parts shine the brighter.

Just so long as saving Shepard and the crew is possible, even if it requires a very specific set of circumstances, just like in the Suicide Mission. 

I wish I hadn't cheated, and read up on how to get everyone to survive before I finished ME2. I missed out on the pathos of Shepard mourning his fallen comrades. It would have made the triumph when I replayed it and got everyone to survive all the sweeter.

[Rifneno]

OH GOD NO, BYNE HAS GIVEN DD LICENSE TO BRING UP THE LEGION THING AGAIN! ALL HANDS, ABANDON THREAD! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

[Steelcan]

Modifié par Steelcan, 02 janvier 2013 - 09:43 .

[byne]

Eryri wrote...

I found Anderson's goodbye, with the combination of the images of Earth and that lovely piece of music playing in the background incredibly moving.

Its too bad they cut the goodbye short. I like the full version much better.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

If they want to pull IT through to its complete possibility, sadness is almost unavoidable. 

However I agree that ME3 has seen enough death and gloom already. I think that if you pull of everything perfectly you should be able to get through with a bare minimum of losses among the the known characters (Anderson is pretty much the only one I consider a certain goner almost no matter how this pans out). Obviusly the fleet will take a beating almost no matter what we do, but that is only faceless mooks (as harsh as that sounds).

A common thing I find in stories is that it is easy to give the reader / watcher a number on how many died, but without a face or a comparision it remains numbers, the ruthless calculus of war.

To give an example I have been to Pointe du Hoc in the Normandy, the cliff several soldiers scaled to take out a german gun emplacement on D-Day. The place has been preserved like it looked after the soldiers left it and you can see every crater and hole where bombs or shells fell. The power of a bomb is hard to truly comprehend until you stand in the crater unable to see over the edge cause it is so deep.

Also in the Normandy I stood at the graveyard for the American soldiers who fell. Seemingly endless rows of crosses as far as the eye went.

Or the nuke dropped on Hiroshima. The blast radius was just a number until i walked through the city and could see how much was once gone from a single blast.

It is those real life comparisions which gives the numbers form to me.

But a introduced and established character will always have form and value and thus hit harder than any number.

I found Anderson's goodbye, with the combination of the images of Earth and that lovely piece of music playing in the background incredibly moving. As you've said in other posts, a little sadness is necessary to make the story emotionally complete, and to make the happy parts shine the brighter.

Just so long as saving Shepard and the crew is possible, even if it requires a very specific set of circumstances, just like in the Suicide Mission. 

I wish I hadn't cheated, and read up on how to get everyone to survive before I finished ME2. I missed out on the pathos of Shepard mourning his fallen comrades. It would have made the triumph when I replayed it and got everyone to survive all the sweeter.

I lost Legion the fist time through a horrible decision at the barrier part as well as the Normanyd crew as i did not act fast enough. Seeing Shepard standing before the coffin and then truning away before walking past the survivors is one of my most memorable moments ever because of that blend of sadness and happiness.

Replayed next day and used an older save to push through with everyone surviving.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 02 janvier 2013 - 09:41 .

[Wayning_Star]

Steelcan wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Reapers tried to control the geth and it backfired. But I'm sure Shepard could control the Reapers. </sarcasm>

Only because Shepard stepped in.  Had he not, the geth would have been under Control.  And had the reapers not interfered the quarians would have won easily.

I found it strange that the Old Machines didn't have a better grip on the Geth. Must be because they un-indoctrinatable. Of course rebel, Shep armor wearing Legion didn't buy into the OM's hype, but still...

. That wasn't legion.  It is a geth coincidentally named Legion.

Legion was a bunch of geth in one package, that's what made it, er him become more sapient. He had the vision of being a hero worshiper, i.e. Shep's old scrap armor.. Legion didn't know why either, or didn't know how to articulate it when asked.

[Steelcan]

byne wrote...

DoomsdayDevice. He thinks Legion is indoctrinated.

IT's bulldog:bandit:

I wouldn't go so far to say Legion is indoctrinated because he clearly opposes the reapers.  But something is amiss, and I think it's not indoctrination, but a lack if Chris E'toile.

[Wayning_Star]

Rifneno wrote...

OH GOD NO, BYNE HAS GIVEN DD LICENSE TO BRING UP THE LEGION THING AGAIN! ALL HANDS, ABANDON THREAD! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

I really LIKE that gif...lol  (message?, not so much..heheh)

[BansheeOwnage]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

byne wrote...

Maybe you screwed up and it wasnt Legion in your game, but it was in mine.

Not what I meant.  He looked like Legion, sounded like Legion, said he was Legion, but Legion wouldn't want every geth hooked up to reaper upgrades.  "We refused the Old Machines gifts, geth build their own future"

There are two reasons for this change the way I see it:

One is certain, the Geth are desperate and the upgrades are the only way they will survive. Legion knows this.

But the second is that most likely those are not Reaper upgrades anymore. Think back to the Thanix cannon, a gun reverse engineered from Sovereigns own guns. Similarly it is very possible (and likely if you ask me) Legion took what he could use from the Reaper code, repurposed it into something which would upgrade the Geth, but without the attachment of the Reapers. The fact that the Reapers are no longer under Reaper control supports this as it shows the code is no longer exactly the same (or the Geth would be back under control immediately).

It is taking the enemies technology, understanding it and making it your own by making your own version, just like the Thanix cannon. It is no longer Reaper tech even if it is where the understanding came from.

Someone used an example of a toaster made of radioactive materials. Sure you can use the toaster, but it is not healthy or you can simply use the toaster as basis for designing your own taster from a non harmful material.

Don't forget how the protheans making their own mass relay kind of totally screwed up the reapers' plan. For 50000 years. OUR TECHNOLOGY. BY INSTEAD MAKING YOUR OWN VERSION, YOU DEVELOP ALONG PATHS THAT WE NEVER PREDICTED, AND WE WILL BE UNPREPARED. We are doing loads better in this cycle due to the Thanix and the geth.

[Eryri]

byne wrote...

Eryri wrote...

I found Anderson's goodbye, with the combination of the images of Earth and that lovely piece of music playing in the background incredibly moving.

Its too bad they cut the goodbye short. I like the full version much better.

So do I. I can't think why Casey insisted Mac cut it down.

Unless... (engaging tin-foil-hat mode), Casey was already planning some post ending content in which the real Anderson might still be alive, and thought a big, elaborate death scene for fake Anderson would be a waste...?

[lex0r11]

Wow, you've done it guys. Rif has completely lost it.

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

Eryri wrote...

I found Anderson's goodbye, with the combination of the images of Earth and that lovely piece of music playing in the background incredibly moving.

Its too bad they cut the goodbye short. I like the full version much better.

Infinite tears.  WHY???

Why must I be on top?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 02 janvier 2013 - 09:47 .

[byne]

Eryri wrote...

byne wrote...

Eryri wrote...

I found Anderson's goodbye, with the combination of the images of Earth and that lovely piece of music playing in the background incredibly moving.

Its too bad they cut the goodbye short. I like the full version much better.

So do I. I can't think why Casey insisted Mac cut it down.

Unless... (engaging tin-foil-hat mode), Casey was already planning some post ending content in which the real Anderson might still be alive, and thought a big, elaborate death scene for fake Anderson would be a waste...?

The only reason i can think of is that Anderson had a wife at one point, and although its never directly stated, the shadow broker dossier on him implies he had kids.