80611 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

paxxton wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

If IT is correct, they don't even have to "force" an ending. Then destroy is the only ending that can be expanded upon.

If Destroy is the correct way to go with IT in mind, the Crucible is most likely not a trap. Shepard accepts that the Crucible is what can stop the Reapers.

In Refusal Shepard decides against utilizing the Crucible and hence the war is lost.

I disagree. I think the destroy option was always on Shepard's mind. The catalyst can't change that. It's the ending in which Shepard keeps fighting. He chooses a violent confrontation, and that is why he snaps out of the indoctrination.

Note how you don't actually 'activate' the crucible in destroy, you blow it up. Hence shooting at the tube.

so shooting at a tube activates a big gun?  yeah....................right.  In refusal he rejects the guidance of the reapers.... finally setting himself free.

[DoomsdayDevice]

dorktainian wrote...

how is refusing 'abandoning the mission'?

So refusing to condemn all organics to whatever the reapers are going to do with them is 'abandoning the mission'?

You refuse to destroy the Reapers. How is that not abandoning the mission?

How exactly is choosing destroy condemning organics to whatever the Reapers are going to do with them?

[paxxton]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

paxxton wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

If IT is correct, they don't even have to "force" an ending. Then destroy is the only ending that can be expanded upon.

If Destroy is the correct way to go with IT in mind, the Crucible is most likely not a trap. Shepard accepts that the Crucible is what can stop the Reapers.

In Refusal Shepard decides against utilizing the Crucible and hence the war is lost.

I disagree. I think the destroy option was always on Shepard's mind. The catalyst can't change that. It's the ending in which Shepard keeps fighting. He chooses a violent confrontation, and that is why he snaps out of the indoctrination.

Note how you don't actually 'activate' the crucible in destroy, you blow it up. Hence shooting at the tube.

No. You activate the Crucible by shooting the tube. The point is that you accept to use the Crucible. Sure, it could turn out to be a trap but that would require further explanation in the story. So far there's no clear indication of that. Only speculation.

[dorktainian]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

how is refusing 'abandoning the mission'?

So refusing to condemn all organics to whatever the reapers are going to do with them is 'abandoning the mission'?

You refuse to destroy the Reapers. How is that not abandoning the mission?

How exactly is choosing destroy condemning organics to whatever the Reapers are going to do with them?

no IMO you refuse to accept the word of a reaper.  :innocent:

Modifié par dorktainian, 03 janvier 2013 - 03:44 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

dorktainian wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

paxxton wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

If IT is correct, they don't even have to "force" an ending. Then destroy is the only ending that can be expanded upon.

If Destroy is the correct way to go with IT in mind, the Crucible is most likely not a trap. Shepard accepts that the Crucible is what can stop the Reapers.

In Refusal Shepard decides against utilizing the Crucible and hence the war is lost.

I disagree. I think the destroy option was always on Shepard's mind. The catalyst can't change that. It's the ending in which Shepard keeps fighting. He chooses a violent confrontation, and that is why he snaps out of the indoctrination.

Note how you don't actually 'activate' the crucible in destroy, you blow it up. Hence shooting at the tube.

so shooting at a tube activates a big gun?  yeah....................right.  In refusal he rejects the guidance of the reapers.... finally setting himself free.

Then why does the entire game beat you over the head a gazillion times with 'do what you came to do', 'show no quarter', 'Don't get sidetracked by politics, you were hired to kill Reapers', 'there is only one way to destroy the Reapers', multiple references to the breath scene ('wiping the galaxy clean of Reapers and coming up for air'), etecetera, etcetera.

You can't just ignore all that.

There isn't a single instance in the game that advocates refusing to do anything.

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead, and ask the ghosts if honour matters. The silence will be your answer."

[DoomsdayDevice]

dorktainian wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

how is refusing 'abandoning the mission'?

So refusing to condemn all organics to whatever the reapers are going to do with them is 'abandoning the mission'?

You refuse to destroy the Reapers. How is that not abandoning the mission?

How exactly is choosing destroy condemning organics to whatever the Reapers are going to do with them?

no IMO you refuse to accept the word of a reaper.  :innocent:

No, you accept the word of a Reaper. If you didn't believe / think it was bad that synthetics would die / believe that the "chaos will come back", you'd pick destroy.

[draconian139]

dorktainian wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

how is refusing 'abandoning the mission'?

So refusing to condemn all organics to whatever the reapers are going to do with them is 'abandoning the mission'?

You refuse to destroy the Reapers. How is that not abandoning the mission?

How exactly is choosing destroy condemning organics to whatever the Reapers are going to do with them?

no IMO you refuse to accept the word of a reaper.  :innocent:

This.  If I believed that you could control the reapers, destroy them, or make with the synthesis magic I'd choose destroy every time.  With the three options starbrat gives I see no reason to believe that any of them will do what he says.

[draconian139]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

how is refusing 'abandoning the mission'?

So refusing to condemn all organics to whatever the reapers are going to do with them is 'abandoning the mission'?

You refuse to destroy the Reapers. How is that not abandoning the mission?

How exactly is choosing destroy condemning organics to whatever the Reapers are going to do with them?

no IMO you refuse to accept the word of a reaper.  :innocent:

No, you accept the word of a Reaper. If you didn't believe / think it was bad that synthetics would die / believe that the "chaos will come back", you'd pick destroy.

Again, you say there's only one reason not to pick destroy.  There's more, its just the reason that most people have for choosing refuse.

[DoomsdayDevice]

draconian139 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

How exactly is wanting starbrat to shutup with his lies and shooting him in the head "abandoning the mission"?

Because you came there to destroy them.

Seems like Shep shooting at the actual avatar of a reaper instead of a tube that he has no reason to believe will destroy them holds to this motive even more.

Yeah, because shooting at the visual manifestation of an AI is obviously going to accomplish a lot more.

Shepard doesn't know (s)he's in an illusion. The only reason for not choosing destroy is listening to the Reaper AI and not wanting to sacrifice some of your allies.

It won't accomplish anything other than sending a message.  There is more than one reason for choosing refuse and as this battle is happening in Shepard's mind intent is important.  If you don't choose destroy because you're unwilling to sacrifice the Geth/EDI that's one thing.  If you don't choose destroy because you don't believe that ANY of the three options would do what starbrat says that's another.  Also, I think its entirely possible for Shepard to recognize that its an illusion, just as its entirely possible to recognize if you're dreaming in real life.

But that is not the reason that Shepard refuses. The dialogue doesn't go "I don't believe this situation is real, I refuse to go along with you, because I think you're indoctrinating me." No, you refuse because you don't like the consequences of the choices.

Shepard doesn't make a stupid speech if you shoot it.

Refusal A:Shep believes starbrat and refuses to make sacrifices

Refusal B:Shep thinks starbrat's full of it

I don't believe it will work. There are way too many instances in the game in which the message is 'a good leader is prepared to make sacrifices'.

If you want to win, you need to be prepared to make these sacrifices. If you're not, then you're not Commander Shepard. Every military leader knows this and should be prepared for this.

[GethPrimeMKII]

dorktainian wrote...

how is refusing 'abandoning the mission'?

So refusing to condemn all organics to whatever the reapers are going to do with them is 'abandoning the mission'?

"I learned about choices and consequences and responsibility. I learned that we all have choices, even when we don't recognize them, and that those choices have consequences, not just for ourselves, but for others. We must assume responsibility for those consequences." John Sheridan : B5

it is abandoning the mission because you came with the mission to kill the reapers and your enemy talked you into refusing to act.

[dorktainian]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

paxxton wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

If IT is correct, they don't even have to "force" an ending. Then destroy is the only ending that can be expanded upon.

If Destroy is the correct way to go with IT in mind, the Crucible is most likely not a trap. Shepard accepts that the Crucible is what can stop the Reapers.

In Refusal Shepard decides against utilizing the Crucible and hence the war is lost.

I disagree. I think the destroy option was always on Shepard's mind. The catalyst can't change that. It's the ending in which Shepard keeps fighting. He chooses a violent confrontation, and that is why he snaps out of the indoctrination.

Note how you don't actually 'activate' the crucible in destroy, you blow it up. Hence shooting at the tube.

so shooting at a tube activates a big gun?  yeah....................right.  In refusal he rejects the guidance of the reapers.... finally setting himself free.

Then why does the entire game beat you over the head a gazillion times with 'do what you came to do', 'show no quarter', 'Don't get sidetracked by politics, you were hired to kill Reapers', 'there is only one way to destroy the Reapers', multiple references to the breath scene ('wiping the galaxy clean of Reapers and coming up for air'), etecetera, etcetera.

You can't just ignore all that.

There isn't a single instance in the game that advocates refusing to do anything.

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead, and ask the ghosts if honour matters. The silence will be your answer."

but by his own admission, star brat has just told you he is responsible for everything.  Also Shepard isnt saying he'll do nothing.  he is saying that he will die knowing he did everything he could to defeat them...... thats a little bit different.  Star brat is responsible for the slaughter of trillions of lives.  How can you trust such a creature?  I agree Destroy (if only presented with 3 choices) is the best choice, however is it not preferable to choose freedom first?  everything that has happened has done so by reaper design.  Why is it so bad to choose a different path?  If the reapers control all the options offered (and they do) then is doing something unexpected a bad thing?  Lets fight.  

[draconian139]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

How exactly is wanting starbrat to shutup with his lies and shooting him in the head "abandoning the mission"?

Because you came there to destroy them.

Seems like Shep shooting at the actual avatar of a reaper instead of a tube that he has no reason to believe will destroy them holds to this motive even more.

Yeah, because shooting at the visual manifestation of an AI is obviously going to accomplish a lot more.

Shepard doesn't know (s)he's in an illusion. The only reason for not choosing destroy is listening to the Reaper AI and not wanting to sacrifice some of your allies.

It won't accomplish anything other than sending a message.  There is more than one reason for choosing refuse and as this battle is happening in Shepard's mind intent is important.  If you don't choose destroy because you're unwilling to sacrifice the Geth/EDI that's one thing.  If you don't choose destroy because you don't believe that ANY of the three options would do what starbrat says that's another.  Also, I think its entirely possible for Shepard to recognize that its an illusion, just as its entirely possible to recognize if you're dreaming in real life.

But that is not the reason that Shepard refuses. The dialogue doesn't go "I don't believe this situation is real, I refuse to go along with you, because I think you're indoctrinating me." No, you refuse because you don't like the consequences of the choices.

Shepard doesn't make a stupid speech if you shoot it.

Refusal A:Shep believes starbrat and refuses to make sacrifices

Refusal B:Shep thinks starbrat's full of it

I don't believe it will work. There are way too many instances in the game in which the message is 'a good leader is prepared to make sacrifices'.

If you want to win, you need to be prepared to make these sacrifices. If you're not, then you're not Commander Shepard. Every military leader knows this and should be prepared for this.

Again, if sacrificing the Geth allows me to destroy the Reapers burn them in acid for all I care.  Heck if every single advanced race is the sacrifice needed to ensure the Reapers are destroyed I'd even take that to save the next cycle from fighting.  I don't believe starbrat though, he really did nothing to convince me that shooting this tube will magically destroy all reapers.

[Norlond]

Could you cut the pyramids a little? Please? :innocent:

[DoomsdayDevice]

draconian139 wrote...

Again, you say there's only one reason not to pick destroy.  There's more, its just the reason that most people have for choosing refuse.

Meta reasons shouldn't count. You need to think from Shepard's perspective.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 03 janvier 2013 - 04:00 .

[draconian139]

I am. My Shepard never believed starbrat.

Modifié par draconian139, 03 janvier 2013 - 04:00 .

[dorktainian]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

Again, you say there's only one reason not to pick destroy.  There's more, its just the reason that most people have for choosing refuse.

Meta reasons shouldn't count. You need to think from Shepard's perspective.

why when you are making the decision?  

[DoomsdayDevice]

draconian139 wrote...

I am. My Shepard never believed starbrat.

Except the "I don't believe you" option isn't there.

By choosing destroy, you reject Starbinger's assertion that it isn't an optimal solution because 'the chaos will come back'. By choosing destroy you reject all the reasons why one would pick control or synthesis.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 03 janvier 2013 - 04:10 .

[draconian139]

See, here's what gets me. You say that the destroy option is there because its on Shep's mind, not that the Reapers are presenting it. Well the thing is that you only think it will destroy them because starbrat tells you it will destroy them.

[draconian139]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

I am. My Shepard never believed starbrat.

Except the "I don't believe you" option isn't there.

By choosing destroy, you refject Starbinger's assertion that it isn't an optimal solution because 'the chaos will come back'. By choosing destroy you reject all the reasons why one would pick control or synthesis.

It is if you interpret shooting him in the head to be it.

[dorktainian]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

I am. My Shepard never believed starbrat.

Except the "I don't believe you" option isn't there.

By choosing destroy, you refject Starbinger's assertion that it isn't an optimal solution because 'the chaos will come back'. By choosing destroy you reject all the reasons why one would pick control or synthesis.

theres an old saying..(well not really)

"understanding is a three edged sword.  Your side, their side and the truth.  The truth is we don't need you anymore"

[DoomsdayDevice]

dorktainian wrote...
but by his own admission, star brat has just told you he is responsible for everything.  Also Shepard isnt saying he'll do nothing.  he is saying that he will die knowing he did everything he could to defeat them...... thats a little bit different.  Star brat is responsible for the slaughter of trillions of lives.  How can you trust such a creature?  I agree Destroy (if only presented with 3 choices) is the best choice, however is it not preferable to choose freedom first?  everything that has happened has done so by reaper design.  Why is it so bad to choose a different path?  If the reapers control all the options offered (and they do) then is doing something unexpected a bad thing?  Lets fight.  

Yeah, he did "everything he could". Except actually choosing to destroy the Reapers. Seems legit.

And I don't believe the Reapers control all the options offered. Destroying the Reapers is what Shepard believes the crucible will do. And Starbinger is clearly trying to steer you away from it.

I don't trust the creature at all. That is why I reject his logic, and do what I came to do.

[DoomsdayDevice]

draconian139 wrote...

See, here's what gets me. You say that the destroy option is there because its on Shep's mind, not that the Reapers are presenting it. Well the thing is that you only think it will destroy them because starbrat tells you it will destroy them.

No, Shepard believes the Crucible will allow us to destroy the Reapers. The thing is believed to be a superweapon. What Starbinger says is irrelevant. If Starbinger told Shepard that the thing could only do control and synthesis, Shepard wouldn't believe it.

[dorktainian]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Yeah, he did "everything he could". Except actually choosing to destroy the Reapers. Seems legit.

And I don't believe the Reapers control all the options offered. Destroying the Reapers is what Shepard believes the crucible will do. And Starbinger is clearly trying to steer you away from it.

I don't trust the creature at all. That is why I reject his logic, and do what I came to do.

i dont agree.  i think everything that has happened up to press has been a result of reaper influence.  Everything from the Prothean Beacons, to Collectors, to cerberus, to the citadel, to the crudible.  So why accept his logic now when everything that has happened has done as he wants?  yeah i want to destroy the reapers but pushing an 'I WIN' button which to be fair you have no idea how it works or if it works just seems crazy.  

[ThisOneIsPunny]

draconian139 wrote...

See, here's what gets me. You say that the destroy option is there because its on Shep's mind, not that the Reapers are presenting it. Well the thing is that you only think it will destroy them because starbrat tells you it will destroy them.

Destroying the reapers has been Shepard's intention since the beginning of ME3(See every talk with TIM paragon or renegade), it's almost expected that Starchild would have to say something about it let alone try to paint it in a negative light compared to other choices. He's not there presenting the choice to you so much as he's reinforcing it's there, but oh no you don't want to pick that one there won't be peace and understanding.

[DoomsdayDevice]

dorktainian wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Yeah, he did "everything he could". Except actually choosing to destroy the Reapers. Seems legit.

And I don't believe the Reapers control all the options offered. Destroying the Reapers is what Shepard believes the crucible will do. And Starbinger is clearly trying to steer you away from it.

I don't trust the creature at all. That is why I reject his logic, and do what I came to do.

i dont agree.  i think everything that has happened up to press has been a result of reaper influence.  Everything from the Prothean Beacons, to Collectors, to cerberus, to the citadel, to the crudible.  So why accept his logic now when everything that has happened has done as he wants?  yeah i want to destroy the reapers but pushing an 'I WIN' button which to be fair you have no idea how it works or if it works just seems crazy.  

You reject his logic by picking destroy.

And of course shooting that tube will not actually destroy the Reapers.

What matters is, you stay on course. The only way to beat indoctrination is to stay true to yourself, do what you came to do, refuse to go down without a fight. Not let yourself be swayed by the words of the Reaper AI.