80611 réponses à ce sujet

[AxStapleton]

dorktainian wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Yeah, he did "everything he could". Except actually choosing to destroy the Reapers. Seems legit.

And I don't believe the Reapers control all the options offered. Destroying the Reapers is what Shepard believes the crucible will do. And Starbinger is clearly trying to steer you away from it.

I don't trust the creature at all. That is why I reject his logic, and do what I came to do.

i dont agree.  i think everything that has happened up to press has been a result of reaper influence.  Everything from the Prothean Beacons, to Collectors, to cerberus, to the citadel, to the crudible.  So why accept his logic now when everything that has happened has done as he wants?  yeah i want to destroy the reapers but pushing an 'I WIN' button which to be fair you have no idea how it works or if it works just seems crazy.  

So the problem you guys are having isn't whether you accept its logic or not but defining what its logic is?

Modifié par AxStapleton, 03 janvier 2013 - 04:22 .

[draconian139]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

See, here's what gets me. You say that the destroy option is there because its on Shep's mind, not that the Reapers are presenting it. Well the thing is that you only think it will destroy them because starbrat tells you it will destroy them.

No, Shepard believes the Crucible will allow us to destroy the Reapers. The thing is believed to be a superweapon. What Starbinger says is irrelevant. If Starbinger told Shepard that the thing could only do control and synthesis, Shepard wouldn't believe it.

Granted, but in this case all three options should be there and starbrat should NOT tell you what the red one does.  He should either tell that he does not know or make something up.  Instead he lets you think that it'll destroy them despite knowing that Shepard would sieze on just about any method to destroy the reapers that he can find.

Edit:Need to go for a while, be back later.  One thing we do agree on is that Shepard should be attempting to use any method to destroy the Reapers that he legitimately believes will work.

Modifié par draconian139, 03 janvier 2013 - 04:33 .

[Skillz1986]

I am with doomsday on this one because of one sentence uttered by starbrat. But this sentence makes it quite clear IMO that destroy is not a option offered by himself. "i know you thought about destroying us" this sentence implies that destroy is only there because this is is whwt shepard thinks the crucible will do. After starbrat says this..he does does everything to divert you from choosing it.

[MaximizedAction]

Skillz1986 wrote...

I am with doomsday on this one because of one sentence uttered by starbrat. But this sentence makes it quite clear IMO that destroy is not a option offered by himself. "i know you thought about destroying us" this sentence implies that destroy is only there because this is is whwt shepard thinks the crucible will do. After starbrat says this..he does does everything to divert you from choosing it.

Hm, that makes sense! Because I really had a problem with Destroy being offered by the Guardian. With that it's not there anymore. And I don't have to rely on Refuse anymore to root for a choice that isn't offered by the Reapers.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 03 janvier 2013 - 05:06 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Hackett: He is wrong, dead Reapers is how we win this.

Shepard: People will die, but we will fight your regardless. We will fight, we will sacrifice, and we will find another way.

Samara: Sometimes the most brutal path is the only honest one.

Samara: Treat them as any other enemy: Show no quarter, mercy, or weakness.

Javik: Do not waver. Victory is never won without difficult choices.

Javik: Subjugating the Reapers will not bring victory, only extinction will.

Garrus: Go out there and give them hell, you were born to do this.

Vigil: Your survival depends on destroying them, not in understanding them.

Shepard: Don't let them take your will to fight.

Shepard: We fight, or we die.

Javik: We fight, or we die.

Shepard: The Illusive Man talked about controlling the Reapers. He seems to think that's how we win this.
Hackett: He's wrong. Dead Reapers are how we win this.

Joker: What do you mean, "Whatever happens"? Everyone knows what's going to happen. You're going to kick some Reaper ass. That's what you do.

Hackett: There's only one way we defeat the Reapers: no more Reapers.

Shepard: Do your job or be vaporized.

Shepard: I have a better idea, we destroy you and live our lives in peace.

Mad Preacher: Draw your weapons for the word, my friends! Draw your weapons and fight! Else certain doom awaits us all!

Ian Newstead (the colonist who tries to resist the Thorian mind control): I'd rather die fighting. My mind is my own! My mind is my own! My mind is my own!

Javik: I sense you have the lineage of a leader. A warrior's skill and cunning--they are strong in your genes. But you've grown tired of war, you're exhausted by defeat, and now you worry you don't have the courage left to go on. Find your resolve. This war can end if you do.

Javik: Vengeance is the goal, suicide is not.

Shepard: Sacrifice is what we sign on for. They know that, and so should you.

Shepard: Making hard decisions and dealing with the consequences--that's what being a leader is about.

Lt. Victus: Court martial, death and dishonour awaits anyone who balks at his duty. We are Turian! We finish what we came here to do, or we die trying.

Javik: You should have not have let the Turian soldier evade his responsibility.
Shepard: I take it Protheans didn't forgive many mistakes?
Javik: If we would have been under my command, I would have marooned him in the desert, buried him in the sand up to his neck, and let the wildlife feast upon his eyes. If he survived that, I would have rewarded him. By shooting him in the head. Good soldiers are a precious resource. The stupidity of one can not be allowed to jeopardize the lives of others.

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

Garrus: If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen.

Javik: Your empathy is a weakness. You must numb yourself to loss. (...) As I said, steel yourself. Many more lives will be lost.
Shepard (renegade): I know it's difficult, Liara, but he's right. You could spend all day counting casualties.
Javik: When you should be avenging them.
Liara: I'm sorry, I can't be that callous.
Javik: (long pause) War doesn't always provide you a choice.

Aethyta (on why Benezia joined Saren): She always wanted to solve things the smart way. I just wanted to fight.
Liara: Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Salarian councilor: Sometimes Spectres have to make sacrifices. I hope you're ready to do that when the time comes.

Anderson: Mostly you were hired to kill Reapers. I hope you haven't been sidetracked by all the politics.

"Diplomacy doesn't win wars, powerful and plentiful firearms do." -Priority: Rannoch

Anderson: Shepard. So I imagine you've wiped the galaxy clean of Reapers, and we can all come up for air?

Garrus: Don't forget to come up for air, there's a lot more war to go.

Shepard: You either wake up or die.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 03 janvier 2013 - 05:12 .

[Steelcan]

I haven't heard that last one

[demersel]

draconian139 wrote...

It is if you interpret shooting him in the head to be it.

Yes. Great idea. Real thinker here. You know what you are when you shoot the catalyst? You're that stupid krogan from Feros who can't get past the VI interface, get's angry and shoots the hologram.   - and since it does nothing - he is stuck in the infinite loop of his own stupidity, while there is already a line behind him, waiting to use the terminal. 

By picking refuse you are just dumb. You can be paragon dumb, by listenig to the thing and then making a speech, or you can be renegade dumb - by shooting the thing. But both path is you being DUMB, thick, retatarded, idiot, whatever you call. Don't go anywhere parading your own stupidity. Especially here. 

[draconian139]

Skillz1986 wrote...

I am with doomsday on this one because of one sentence uttered by starbrat. But this sentence makes it quite clear IMO that destroy is not a option offered by himself. "i know you thought about destroying us" this sentence implies that destroy is only there because this is is whwt shepard thinks the crucible will do. After starbrat says this..he does does everything to divert you from choosing it.

What would have been a much better line of dialogue here is "I know you thought about destroying us but that is impossible."  Would really have gone better with starbrat fooling you.  Have him make something up about the red option, something that Shepard would never choose.  If you go towards the red option have flashes on the screen of Reapers blowing up.  I just can't believe destroy with starbrat being the one to explain what the red option is supposed to represent.  I had major problems even on my first playthrough with this and literally stood around for about twenty minutes wondering if destroy was a trap, while knowing that control and synthesis were.  I didn't think about indoctrination, though I did consider it being a hallucination, at that point but I knew starbrat was bsing me as soon as control was given as an option.  This is all how my Shepard sees things and since this is a battleground of the mind I see the results of choosing refuse/destroy to be dependent on how that particular Shepard is interpreting what is going on around him.

Now if we're talking meta, this is really impossible to implement.  I don't think this is a problem though since I don't believe we'll ever get any confirmation/denial of indoctrination in the form of DLC.  If I'm wrong and it is implemented I'll be happy even though my own interpretation will be undone.  I'll be happy because it'll make it far more likely that the next Mass Effect game will be set in the future.

[draconian139]

demersel wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

It is if you interpret shooting him in the head to be it.

Yes. Great idea. Real thinker here. You know what you are when you shoot the catalyst? You're that stupid krogan from Feros who can't get past the VI interface, get's angry and shoots the hologram.   - and since it does nothing - he is stuck in the infinite loop of his own stupidity, while there is already a line behind him, waiting to use the terminal. 

By picking refuse you are just dumb. You can be paragon dumb, by listenig to the thing and then making a speech, or you can be renegade dumb - by shooting the thing. But both path is you being DUMB, thick, retatarded, idiot, whatever you call. Don't go anywhere parading your own stupidity. Especially here. 

Whatever.  Its the closest thing to representing what my Shepard is thinking so I take it. I don't call you dumb just because you view things differently than me, way to go flinging insults around.  

Edit:Oh, and another thing in terms of doing nothing.  If you believe in IT in Shepard's mind then destroy isn't doing anything either except breaking indoctrination and the reason that it breaks indoctrination is because of the symbolism in choosing destroy.  Shepard is shooting the AI avatar because he doesn't believe what its saying, sure its silly but no sillier than shooting a tube to destroy the reapers.  Dreams are full of silly actions having deeper meaning.  You're not actually shooting an AI avatar just as you aren't actually destroying the reapers, both are symbolic and the reasoning behind the actions is what matters.

Modifié par draconian139, 03 janvier 2013 - 06:04 .

[Skillz1986]

@draconian

Well, that's more or less exactly what starbrat does..he says he knows you thought abou destroying them..and starts to list all the negative consequences that might happen if you choose desrroy

You have to sacrifice the geth (synth and control you self sacrifice)
You are partially sytnhetic (implying even you MIGHT die)
The peace won't last because organics will build new synthetics (synth and control: peace will last)


So he basically says "well you came here to destroy us..but it's a really s**tty idea..."  edit: left out a word

Modifié par Skillz1986, 03 janvier 2013 - 06:35 .

[Skillz1986]

Sorry no time to edit (phone)

All the negative options with desroy make even less sense considering the outcomes of control and synth? Why the hell is destroy targeting ALL synthetics while control is only affecting reapers?

[demersel]

draconian139 wrote...

demersel wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

It is if you interpret shooting him in the head to be it.

Yes. Great idea. Real thinker here. You know what you are when you shoot the catalyst? You're that stupid krogan from Feros who can't get past the VI interface, get's angry and shoots the hologram.   - and since it does nothing - he is stuck in the infinite loop of his own stupidity, while there is already a line behind him, waiting to use the terminal. 

By picking refuse you are just dumb. You can be paragon dumb, by listenig to the thing and then making a speech, or you can be renegade dumb - by shooting the thing. But both path is you being DUMB, thick, retatarded, idiot, whatever you call. Don't go anywhere parading your own stupidity. Especially here. 

Whatever.  Its the closest thing to representing what my Shepard is thinking so I take it. I don't call you dumb just because you view things differently than me, way to go flinging insults around.  

Edit:Oh, and another thing in terms of doing nothing.  If you believe in IT in Shepard's mind then destroy isn't doing anything either except breaking indoctrination and the reason that it breaks indoctrination is because of the symbolism in choosing destroy.  Shepard is shooting the AI avatar because he doesn't believe what its saying, sure its silly but no sillier than shooting a tube to destroy the reapers.  Dreams are full of silly actions having deeper meaning.  You're not actually shooting an AI avatar just as you aren't actually destroying the reapers, both are symbolic and the reasoning behind the actions is what matters.

Except it is not a dream where you just sleep and watch pretty random pictures, generated by your own brain. 

That is fight. A very brutal fight to the death with a very evil and infinitly powerfull being that bears very ill will towards you. 
That is not a place to have a self-determination moment - that is a FUСКING BOSS FIGHT. 

Imagine, that you are in a trench in WWII during a heated battle. Refuse is standing up tall a saying "To hell with this war, war never sovles anything, i don't belive in war, I'm going home and do things my way"  - the very next thing that happens - you get a bullet through your brain - for being ****ing retarded by stanging tall on a battlefield while under fire. 

[draconian139]

Skillz1986 wrote...

@draconian

Well, that's more or less exactly what starbrat does..he says he knows you thought abou destroying them..and starts to list all the negative consequences that might happen if you choose desrroy

You have to sacrifice the geth (synth and destroy you self sacrifice)
You are partially sytnhetic (implying even you MIGHT die)
The peace won't last because organics will build new synthetics (synth and control: peace will last)


So he basically says "well you came here to destroy us..but it's a really s**tty idea..."

Yes, I get that this is a major source of hesitation for most Shepards, its not for mine though and I think this is the major source of my problem.  Destroy may have came across as more believable to my Shepard if the Geth were alive or I had had any expectation of surviving to begin with.

[Skillz1986]

Hey demersel...do you mind calming down?

[draconian139]

demersel wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

demersel wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

It is if you interpret shooting him in the head to be it.

Yes. Great idea. Real thinker here. You know what you are when you shoot the catalyst? You're that stupid krogan from Feros who can't get past the VI interface, get's angry and shoots the hologram.   - and since it does nothing - he is stuck in the infinite loop of his own stupidity, while there is already a line behind him, waiting to use the terminal. 

By picking refuse you are just dumb. You can be paragon dumb, by listenig to the thing and then making a speech, or you can be renegade dumb - by shooting the thing. But both path is you being DUMB, thick, retatarded, idiot, whatever you call. Don't go anywhere parading your own stupidity. Especially here. 

Whatever.  Its the closest thing to representing what my Shepard is thinking so I take it. I don't call you dumb just because you view things differently than me, way to go flinging insults around.  

Edit:Oh, and another thing in terms of doing nothing.  If you believe in IT in Shepard's mind then destroy isn't doing anything either except breaking indoctrination and the reason that it breaks indoctrination is because of the symbolism in choosing destroy.  Shepard is shooting the AI avatar because he doesn't believe what its saying, sure its silly but no sillier than shooting a tube to destroy the reapers.  Dreams are full of silly actions having deeper meaning.  You're not actually shooting an AI avatar just as you aren't actually destroying the reapers, both are symbolic and the reasoning behind the actions is what matters.

Except it is not a dream where you just sleep and watch pretty random pictures, generated by your own brain. 

That is fight. A very brutal fight to the death with a very evil and infinitly powerfull being that bears very ill will towards you. 
That is not a place to have a self-determination moment - that is a FUСКING BOSS FIGHT. 

Imagine, that you are in a trench in WWII during a heated battle. Refuse is standing up tall a saying "To hell with this war, war never sovles anything, i don't belive in war, I'm going home and do things my way"  - the very next thing that happens - you get a bullet through your brain - for being ****ing retarded by stanging tall on a battlefield while under fire. 

Regardless of it being a battlefield of the mind the actions are still entirely symbolic.  Imagine that you're in a war and an enemy general tells you that if you go blow up this certain thing it'll wipe him and all his troops out.

[demersel]

Skillz1986 wrote...

Hey demersel...do you mind calming down?

I'm calm. 

[draconian139]

woops double post.

Modifié par draconian139, 03 janvier 2013 - 06:21 .

[Skillz1986]

demersel wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

Hey demersel...do you mind calming down?

I'm calm. 

if you say so:happy:

[Andromidius]

Skillz1986 wrote...

I am with doomsday on this one because of one sentence uttered by starbrat. But this sentence makes it quite clear IMO that destroy is not a option offered by himself. "i know you thought about destroying us" this sentence implies that destroy is only there because this is is whwt shepard thinks the crucible will do. After starbrat says this..he does does everything to divert you from choosing it.

Indeed.  There are no real choices being given.  The object of the exercise is to get Shepard to want a different choice.  To make Shepard think destroying the Reapers isn't a good idea after all, and that they can get along and live in peace and harmony.

"You want to destroy us?  Well sure, you could destroy us, but you really don't want to do that do you?  I mean you'll kill the Geth, EDI and yourself as well!  What do you mean being partially synthetic hasn't improved your existance, it saved your life (and please forget that you only died because of minions under Reaper control were sent to blow your ship up while you were inside, that's totally irrelivent)!  But hey, how about this neat idea I just thought up, all because of your hard work and amazing dedication!  You sure are unique and special, so I'm going to let you pick this amazing choice that I was thinking about for a while but was never possible without your special input!

Now kill yourself.  Just over there.  Yeah, right there.  Gooooood.  Hold still!"

Seems legit.

Let's think back to Kenson during Arrival.  They were all set to delay the Reaper's plans by doing something horrific, sacrificing the lives of hundreds of thousands of 'innocent' Batarians and destroying irreplaceable technology.  And then suddenly she and her team are convinced that's a bad idea, because killing people is wrong and they might be wrong about the Reaper's intent as well!  Maybe they are friendly, and will help uplift Humanity?

Its EXACTLY the same as Shepard's choice, only taken up a noche.  You're all set to end the Reaper's plans forever, and you know you need to sacrifice the lives of countless innocents and potentially destroy technology that can never be replaced.  Then you get talked into thinking that's a bad thing to do, killing innocents, and that you don't understand the Reapers and really they want to be your friends and uplift Humanity (and everyone else too!).

The difference?  Shepard pushed that button in Arrival without a second thought after Kenson showed her true colours and that she had no intention of carrying out her mission.

[Andromidius]

draconian139 wrote...

What would have been a much better line of dialogue here is "I know you thought about destroying us but that is impossible."  Would really have gone better with starbrat fooling you. 

Never tell Shepard something is impossible.  Its 100% sure to make it happen.

True deception is giving someone a choice, and convincing them that's not in their best interests.

[draconian139]

Andromidius wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

What would have been a much better line of dialogue here is "I know you thought about destroying us but that is impossible."  Would really have gone better with starbrat fooling you. 

Never tell Shepard something is impossible.  Its 100% sure to make it happen.

True deception is giving someone a choice, and convincing them that's not in their best interests.

This really ties into my feelings on the matter and how its all dependent on your Shepard.  Are the Geth alive, how much does your Shepard care for EDI's survival, does his own survival matter to him?  Dependent on the answers to these questions it can create a ton of hesitation before choosing destroy...or none.  In my own case it creates none for him which is why destroy feels so incredibly suspicious to MY Shepard.

[HellishFiend]

Andromidius wrote...


Let's think back to Kenson during Arrival.  They were all set to delay the Reaper's plans by doing something horrific, sacrificing the lives of hundreds of thousands of 'innocent' Batarians and destroying irreplaceable technology.  And then suddenly she and her team are convinced that's a bad idea, because killing people is wrong and they might be wrong about the Reaper's intent as well!  Maybe they are friendly, and will help uplift Humanity?

That entire scenario was bogus. The reapers were never going to fly into that system and use that relay. Why would the Reapers arrive if you're inside the asteroid but not if youre out on the surface? If the timer runs out while you're in the asteroid, you have a dream. If the timer runs out while youre outside on the asteroid's surface, nothing happens. Nothing at all.  Furthermore, even if the Reapers WERE arriving into that system to use the "Alpha relay" to invade the galaxy, they would ostensibly have been close enough to have been hit by the blast from the exploding relay. They would not put themselves in that risky scenario, and judging by the different ways it can play out, it should be obvious that they didnt.

Lastly, the Reapers cannot have taken direct control of Kenson, as she did not have visible Reaper tech alterations. Possessed Kenson and post-possessed Kenson has absolutely no Reaper tech on her body anywhere to be seen, and she says they "want Shepard alive", whereas we already know the Reapers are just fine with blowing him/her to bits if the situation presents itself. 

Make of that what you will....

Modifié par HellishFiend, 03 janvier 2013 - 06:42 .

[Skillz1986]

@andromidius

Yes, plantig the idea that destroy is a bad choice in shepards head, is basically what indoctrination is. You do not really controll a guys mind..at least not at the beginning...you just make him believe in your doctrine. It all statts with an idea (saren for example)

[demersel]

HellishFiend wrote...

Make of that what you will....

How can you still complete the suicide mission, after having done arrival, if you never woke up in arrival for real until the end of Mass Effect 3?