80611 réponses à ce sujet

[CoolioThane]

TheProtheans wrote...

demersel wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

It is if you interpret shooting him in the head to be it.

Yes. Great idea. Real thinker here. You know what you are when you shoot the catalyst? You're that stupid krogan from Feros who can't get past the VI interface, get's angry and shoots the hologram.   - and since it does nothing - he is stuck in the infinite loop of his own stupidity, while there is already a line behind him, waiting to use the terminal. 

By picking refuse you are just dumb. You can be paragon dumb, by listenig to the thing and then making a speech, or you can be renegade dumb - by shooting the thing. But both path is you being DUMB, thick, retatarded, idiot, whatever you call. Don't go anywhere parading your own stupidity. Especially here. 

In Literal
Refuse is the fight against unknown problems and technology, you say "f**k you" to magic, bad writing and maybe Bioware too.
It is standing by your Shepard's principles and the ends don't justify the means.
It is the bittersweet sacrifice the galaxy needed to get rid of the Reaper problem.

In IT
Refuse is the best ending as all the other endings result in Shepard being indoctrinated to some degree.

So who is really the idiot?
A refuser or the guy who can't spell a word he uses to try and insult people.

I disagree that refuse is a good ending in Literal. We've been told that the next cycle uses the crucible anyway, and you are, in fact, dooming every spacefaring species to extinction on the back of your own stubborness,

I am stuck on where I stand with refuse in regards to IT. It is interesting.

[demersel]

Since when refuse is the best ending in IT?

[TheProtheans]

CoolioThane wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

demersel wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

It is if you interpret shooting him in the head to be it.

Yes. Great idea. Real thinker here. You know what you are when you shoot the catalyst? You're that stupid krogan from Feros who can't get past the VI interface, get's angry and shoots the hologram.   - and since it does nothing - he is stuck in the infinite loop of his own stupidity, while there is already a line behind him, waiting to use the terminal. 

By picking refuse you are just dumb. You can be paragon dumb, by listenig to the thing and then making a speech, or you can be renegade dumb - by shooting the thing. But both path is you being DUMB, thick, retatarded, idiot, whatever you call. Don't go anywhere parading your own stupidity. Especially here. 

In Literal
Refuse is the fight against unknown problems and technology, you say "f**k you" to magic, bad writing and maybe Bioware too.
It is standing by your Shepard's principles and the ends don't justify the means.
It is the bittersweet sacrifice the galaxy needed to get rid of the Reaper problem.

In IT
Refuse is the best ending as all the other endings result in Shepard being indoctrinated to some degree.

So who is really the idiot?
A refuser or the guy who can't spell a word he uses to try and insult people.

I disagree that refuse is a good ending in Literal. We've been told that the next cycle uses the crucible anyway, and you are, in fact, dooming every spacefaring species to extinction on the back of your own stubborness,

I am stuck on where I stand with refuse in regards to IT. It is interesting.

So a twitter comment is been used to support something that never happened in game.
We don't really know who lived or died, all we know is that we fought so no ones else would have to.

And the figure looks a lot like an Asari.

[demersel]

smokingotter1 wrote..

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that the decision chamber is really a metaphysical battle for Shepard's soul. A battle between fighting and submission. The reapers are trying to defang Shepard. Notice the camera emphasis on the gun being dropped in synthesis and control. Also the third nightmare the doppelganger Shepard (kneels down to embrace the kid) is in civilian clothes while the Shepard you control is in armor and standing.

Whether or not the Geth and EDI really die in destroy is beyond the point. The real question is: "Are you willing to do whatever it takes to stop the reapers?"

You are given a very simple mission: destroy the reapers. You are told over and over and over and over and over that there will be sacrifices. "Are you willing to do whatever it takes to stop the reapers?"

As Shepard put it "it is that simple."

This. 

[draconian139]

smokingotter1 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

I am with doomsday on this one because of one sentence uttered by starbrat. But this sentence makes it quite clear IMO that destroy is not a option offered by himself. "i know you thought about destroying us" this sentence implies that destroy is only there because this is is whwt shepard thinks the crucible will do. After starbrat says this..he does does everything to divert you from choosing it.

Indeed.  There are no real choices being given.  The object of the exercise is to get Shepard to want a different choice.  To make Shepard think destroying the Reapers isn't a good idea after all, and that they can get along and live in peace and harmony.

"You want to destroy us?  Well sure, you could destroy us, but you really don't want to do that do you?  I mean you'll kill the Geth, EDI and yourself as well!  What do you mean being partially synthetic hasn't improved your existance, it saved your life (and please forget that you only died because of minions under Reaper control were sent to blow your ship up while you were inside, that's totally irrelivent)!  But hey, how about this neat idea I just thought up, all because of your hard work and amazing dedication!  You sure are unique and special, so I'm going to let you pick this amazing choice that I was thinking about for a while but was never possible without your special input!

Now kill yourself.  Just over there.  Yeah, right there.  Gooooood.  Hold still!"

Seems legit.

Let's think back to Kenson during Arrival.  They were all set to delay the Reaper's plans by doing something horrific, sacrificing the lives of hundreds of thousands of 'innocent' Batarians and destroying irreplaceable technology.  And then suddenly she and her team are convinced that's a bad idea, because killing people is wrong and they might be wrong about the Reaper's intent as well!  Maybe they are friendly, and will help uplift Humanity?

Its EXACTLY the same as Shepard's choice, only taken up a noche.  You're all set to end the Reaper's plans forever, and you know you need to sacrifice the lives of countless innocents and potentially destroy technology that can never be replaced.  Then you get talked into thinking that's a bad thing to do, killing innocents, and that you don't understand the Reapers and really they want to be your friends and uplift Humanity (and everyone else too!).

The difference?  Shepard pushed that button in Arrival without a second thought after Kenson showed her true colours and that she had no intention of carrying out her mission.

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that the decision chamber is really a metaphysical battle for Shepard's soul. A battle between fighting and submission. The reapers are trying to defang Shepard. Notice the camera emphasis on the gun being dropped in synthesis and control. Also the third nightmare the doppelganger Shepard (kneels down to embrace the kid) is in civilian clothes while the Shepard you control is in armor and standing.

Whether or not the Geth and EDI really die in destroy is beyond the point. The real question is: "Are you willing to do whatever it takes to stop the reapers?"

You are given a very simple mission: destroy the reapers. You are told over and over and over and over and over that there will be sacrifices. "Are you willing to do whatever it takes to stop the reapers?"

As Shepard put it "it is that simple."

Again, this is why I feel that its very dependent on your Shepard.  If he/she feels like they're making a significant sacrifice by choosing destroy then I can understand it breaking indoctrination.  Instead the "sacrifice" is something completely insignificant in my playthrough as the Geth are already dead and I found EDI suspicious. With the situation in MY playthrough destroy goes from being something that requires large sacrifices to something that is an incredibly easy decision if taken at face value which causes Shepard to distrust starbrat even further and not believe that its as advertised.  Again, choosing destroy should be at least a bit of a struggle, Shepard should feel as if he's sacrificing things that he cares about and when this is the case destroy breaking indoctrination makes sense.  When its not the case and instead it feels like yet another trap refuse makes sense, at least to me.

Edit:Honestly, refuse in literal endings is pretty horrible imo.

Modifié par draconian139, 03 janvier 2013 - 07:59 .

[demersel]

TheProtheans wrote...

So a twitter comment is been used to support something that never happened in game.
We don't really know who lived or died, all we know is that we fought so no ones else would have to.

The protheans also fought, so no one else would have to. 

[TheProtheans]

demersel wrote...

Since when refuse is the best ending in IT?

Since all the options to use the Crucible are choices the Reapers imprinted in your mind.
No matter what you pick you let them into your mind a bit more, they use this against you.

[TheConstantOne]

HellishFiend wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Andromidius wrote...


Let's think back to Kenson during Arrival.  They were all set to delay the Reaper's plans by doing something horrific, sacrificing the lives of hundreds of thousands of 'innocent' Batarians and destroying irreplaceable technology.  And then suddenly she and her team are convinced that's a bad idea, because killing people is wrong and they might be wrong about the Reaper's intent as well!  Maybe they are friendly, and will help uplift Humanity?

That entire scenario was bogus. The reapers were never going to fly into that system and use that relay. Why would the Reapers arrive if you're inside the asteroid but not if youre out on the surface? If the timer runs out while you're in the asteroid, you have a dream. If the timer runs out while youre outside on the asteroid's surface, nothing happens. Nothing at all.  Furthermore, even if the Reapers WERE arriving into that system to use the "Alpha relay" to invade the galaxy, they would ostensibly have been close enough to have been hit by the blast from the exploding relay. They would not put themselves in that risky scenario, and judging by the different ways it can play out, it should be obvious that they didnt.

Lastly, the Reapers cannot have taken direct control of Kenson, as she did not have visible Reaper tech alterations. Possessed Kenson and post-possessed Kenson has absolutely no Reaper tech on her body anywhere to be seen, and she says they "want Shepard alive", whereas we already know the Reapers are just fine with blowing him/her to bits if the situation presents itself. 

Make of that what you will....

Actually I think it is safe to say the Reapers were coming to the Bahak system.  Kenson was thoroughly indoctrinated by the time Shepard got there (obviously) so they had ready access to her thoughts.  Once Shepard puts the last cooling rod into place, at that point the Reapers abandon their plans for starting their invasion through Bahak.  This can be inferred because Kenson says that she "can't hear whispers anymore."  Lastly, the supernova shockwave is not an issue, mass effect drives allow ships to travel faster than light and Reapers have pretty sizeable mass effect drives.  All they would need to do is FTL away from the shockwave and the blast would never reach them.

And while the Reapers have no problem killing Shepard if they have to, they would prefer him alive for their experiments.  Kenson had that opportunity and failed them

I can understand why you feel that way. But from what I can tell, there are too many indications that it may be a bit hasty to assume that the Reapers are responsible for what we see from Kenson, as well as reasons to doubt that the Reapers were actually planning on coming into that system. 

We can't really know for sure what the Reaper strategy is but... considering that the result of Arrival was serious military preparation from the Alliance to prepare for the Reapers (and for any batarian incursions) it would be a silly tactical move for them to use an indoctrinated agent to deliberately draw attention to themselves when they have worked so hard to remain a secret from the galaxy.  And this wouldn't have even been an "oops" consequence on the part of the Reapers' strategy either.  One of Shepard's objectives going into the system was to verify the Reaper artifact Kenson found so the Alliance knew if it should prepare.  So they could see this result coming.

Furthermore, if Kenson had planned on destroying the relay, I doubt the Reapers would have cared if it wasn't important to their plans.  If anything, if she could destroy the relay and take Shepard with her to a location out of system, there wouldn't be any Reaper evidence left in the system.  It would have been more beneficial to destroy the relay...what's 300,000 lives to the Reapers? They kill billions.  The Reapers stopping Kenson suggests that the Alpha Relay is actually important

That's my take on the situation anyway

[dorktainian]

all 4 endings as they stand now are equally valid according to Bioware.

Had a sneeky thought regarding IT and how ALL 4 endings could be correct. Back in a mo.

[demersel]

TheProtheans wrote...

demersel wrote...

Since when refuse is the best ending in IT?

Since all the options to use the Crucible are choices the Reapers imprinted in your mind.
No matter what you pick you let them into your mind a bit more, they use this against you.

Which only proves that the ending of Mass Effect 3 is Shepard getting indoctrinated. 

And the reapers did not imprint the idea of wanting to destroy them. The whole thing is a mental battle, it is about your desire. 

[Skillz1986]

@ the protheans

Not necessarily. As i said, destroy is in mo ippinion not a choice offered by starbrat. He more or pess says this himself "i know YOU THOUGHT ABOUT destroying us"...destroy is there because that's what shepard came here to do. The other two choices ate there to divert you from choosing it.

[TheConstantOne]

draconian139 wrote...
*snip*

Again, this is why I feel that its very dependent on your Shepard.  If he/she feels like they're making a significant sacrifice by choosing destroy then I can understand it breaking indoctrination.  Instead the "sacrifice" is something completely insignificant in my playthrough as the Geth are already dead and I found EDI suspicious. With the situation in MY playthrough destroy goes from being something that requires large sacrifices to something that is an incredibly easy decision if taken at face value which causes Shepard to distrust starbrat even further and not believe that its as advertised.  Again, choosing destroy should be at least a bit of a struggle, Shepard should feel as if he's sacrificing things that he cares about and when this is the case destroy breaking indoctrination makes sense.  When its not the case and instead it feels like yet another trap refuse makes sense, at least to me.

Edit:Honestly, refuse in literal endings is pretty horrible imo.

I have a feeling that, should an epilogue DLC happen (which I very much hope) the IT concept will be used but Shepard will semi-break indoctrination in most of the 3 decisions. However, there will be different benefits and consequences for each choice.  What those benefits and consequences would likely relate to the theme behind each choice somehow

[Restrider]

Anything new under the sun?
I'm not really in the mood to read 20+ pages. You can even summarize the internet drama, it's cheaper than TV.

[Skillz1986]

There's even a tie in with ems.

Low ems/collector base destroyed

Shepard does not believe in using the reapers or their technology to defeat them sothe destroy option is the only thing presented since it is everything shepard came here to do. Starbrat does not offer you other choices since he knows you fail anyway (due to low ems)

High ems/collector base destroyed. Catalyst is ****ing it's pants and desperately tries to convince you that destroy is a bad option..because the chances of breaking free of the indoc attempt (refusing to believe in anything than destroy) and actually defeating reapers are good.

[TheProtheans]

demersel wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

demersel wrote...

Since when refuse is the best ending in IT?

Since all the options to use the Crucible are choices the Reapers imprinted in your mind.
No matter what you pick you let them into your mind a bit more, they use this against you.

Which only proves that the ending of Mass Effect 3 is Shepard getting indoctrinated. 

And the reapers did not imprint the idea of wanting to destroy them. The whole thing is a mental battle, it is about your desire. 

Yeah they did, control, destroy, synthesis.
It's all the same, you decided to let them into your mind by using possibly a Reaper device under a false pretense.

In this moment of sacrifice you gave a part of yourself over to the Reapers in order get want you thought you wanted.
They will use this against your shepard.

Refusal is the only way to deny the Reapers from accessing your mind more.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 03 janvier 2013 - 08:10 .

[demersel]

TheProtheans wrote...

demersel wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

demersel wrote...

Since when refuse is the best ending in IT?

Since all the options to use the Crucible are choices the Reapers imprinted in your mind.
No matter what you pick you let them into your mind a bit more, they use this against you.

Which only proves that the ending of Mass Effect 3 is Shepard getting indoctrinated. 

And the reapers did not imprint the idea of wanting to destroy them. The whole thing is a mental battle, it is about your desire. 

Yeah they did, control, destroy, synthesis.
It's all the same, you decided to let them into your mind by using possibly a Reaper device under a false pretense.

In this moment of sacrifice you gave a part of yourself over to the Reapers in order get want you thought you wanted.
They will use this against your shepard.

Refusal is the only way to deny the Reapers from accessing your mind more.

Let's have a bet. If when the further content is released - refuse turns out to be the only option that breaks the indoctrination, while all others, including destroy, get's you indoctrinated - i pay you 100 euro, 

If not - you pay me 100 euro. Deal? 

[masster blaster]

Not this again.

It's always been Destroy the Reapers at all cost.
Refuse is not doing anything. Shepard has done everything he/she could to stop the Reapers, yet Destroy is right in front of him/her? I am sorry Shepard has no F'ing clue that he/she is being Indoctrinated. Also Shepard is always saying after the brat is done telling you about Destroy " There has to be another way." WTF I meann really.

I am sorry but Shepard is there to Destroy the Reapers right, yet now there has to be another way all because of what a brat tells Shepard. Even if you pick Refuse option choices Shepard says they won't use the crucible. Right there the Brat get's angry. Not because Shepard refused to Destroy them, but Shepard hasn't heard about the other two choices.


Look it's a mind game. Are you going to believe the brat or not. Personally I don't believe the brat, yet I pick Destroy because it's what I was told to do/ What I planned to do ever since ME1. I didn't crea if my Shepard died along the way. I would pick another person to control, and finish the Reapers off.

[demersel]

masster blaster wrote...

 Also Shepard is always saying after the brat is done telling you about Destroy " There has to be another way." WTF I meann really.

Actually, before the EC, it wasn't like this. 

It went like this -

 - But the reapers will be destroyed?
 - Yes, but the peaqce won't last, soon, your children wiil create synthetics and the chaos will return
 - Maybe...
 - There is another option!

That "Maybe.." was just brilliant. 

Modifié par demersel, 03 janvier 2013 - 08:20 .

[TheProtheans]

demersel wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

demersel wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

demersel wrote...

Since when refuse is the best ending in IT?

Since all the options to use the Crucible are choices the Reapers imprinted in your mind.
No matter what you pick you let them into your mind a bit more, they use this against you.

Which only proves that the ending of Mass Effect 3 is Shepard getting indoctrinated. 

And the reapers did not imprint the idea of wanting to destroy them. The whole thing is a mental battle, it is about your desire. 

Yeah they did, control, destroy, synthesis.
It's all the same, you decided to let them into your mind by using possibly a Reaper device under a false pretense.

In this moment of sacrifice you gave a part of yourself over to the Reapers in order get want you thought you wanted.
They will use this against your shepard.

Refusal is the only way to deny the Reapers from accessing your mind more.

Let's have a bet. If when the further content is released - refuse turns out to be the only option that breaks the indoctrination, while all others, including destroy, get's you indoctrinated - i pay you 100 euro, 
If not - you pay me 100 euro. Deal? 

I didn't say and wouldn't say it would be the only one that breaks indoctrination.
But I would make the bet that refusal puts Shepard in the best position in terms of his health, possibly allowing him to do things other Shepard's can not do due to their struggle.
I think all Shepard's should get the chance to break it in their own way during this content if IT is indeed true.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 03 janvier 2013 - 08:22 .

[masster blaster]

Really Refuse makes Literalist endings very very stupid. Why would you refuse the endings in literal world? It makes Destroy a slap to the face, and not only that you kill everyone. How is that good.

In the IT world it's very very stupid. Why should we refuse to pick Destroy, if we already know Shepard wakes up? Shepard doesn't know he/she can wake up in Destroy, yet we do. So ...

Destroy: You get the cure, and Destroy the virus, yet some of your blood cells die. If you didn't prepare your body/ took care of it, then your not going to wake up.
Refuse: you refuse to cure yourself, and die.
Control: You try to control the virus, yet in the end it is you who will lose control of your body, and mind. Then you die.
Synthesis: You put more of the virus in your body causing yourself to die.

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

 Also Shepard is always saying after the brat is done telling you about Destroy " There has to be another way." WTF I meann really.

Actually, before the EC, it wasn't like this. 

It went like this -

 - But the reapers will be destroyed?
 - Yes, but the peaqce won't last, soon, your children wiil create synthetics and the chaos will return
 - Maybe...
 - There is another option!

That "Maybe.." was just brilliant. 

It showed that Shepard cared only for immediate consequences.

[TheProtheans]

masster blaster wrote...

I am sorry but Shepard is there to Destroy the Reapers right, yet now there has to be another way all because of what a brat tells Shepard. Even if you pick Refuse option choices Shepard says they won't use the crucible. Right there the Brat get's angry. Not because Shepard refused to Destroy them, but Shepard hasn't heard about the other two choices.

By that stage Catalyst explained all so he already heard.

[demersel]

[quote]TheProtheans wrote...

Let's have a bet. If when the further content is released - refuse turns out to be the only option that breaks the indoctrination, while all others, including destroy, get's you indoctrinated - i pay you 100 euro, 
If not - you pay me 100 euro. Deal? 

[/quote]

I didn't say and wouldn't say it would be the only one that breaks indoctrination.
But I would make the bet that refusal puts Shepard in the best position in terms of his health, possibly allowing him to do things other Shepard's can not do due to their struggle.
I think all Shepard's should get the chance to break it in their own way during this content if IT is indeed ture.

[/quote]


Ok, You say that refusa puts shepard in the best position to break off the indoctrination. That is a bit vague for a solid bet, since "best" depends on a point of view. 

But let's go with it. 

If highest EMS refuse turns out te be a better option than highest EMS Destroy - i pay you 100 euro. 
If it doesn't - you pay me 100 euro. 

Let's define the "better" part than, shall we? 

[draconian139]

hmm, how about if there is no IT DLC you both pay me 100 euro?

[TheProtheans]

masster blaster wrote...

In the IT world it's very very stupid. Why should we refuse to pick Destroy, if we already know Shepard wakes up? Shepard doesn't know he/she can wake up in Destroy, yet we do. So ...

Destroy: You get the cure, and Destroy the virus, yet some of your blood cells die. If you didn't prepare your body/ took care of it, then your not going to wake up.
Refuse: you refuse to cure yourself, and die.
Control: You try to control the virus, yet in the end it is you who will lose control of your body, and mind. Then you die.
Synthesis: You put more of the virus in your body causing yourself to die.

The Catalyst became enraged because you broke their link to you.
If Refuse showed anything further, it would have ruined the surprise when Bioware revealed new content.