80611 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

What if......

ok time for my thoughts on how all 4 endings could be valid.  (yes I said all 4)  We have all been assuming that these 4 are the end of the game.  

Now lets enter the realm of theory again.   

Harbinger waits until Shepards guard is down, him having just done the bad thing with his LI.  

Remember that final dream sequence - the one where shepard burned up?  What if he never actually woke up out of that?  What if everything that follows appears real to shepard (thats why we see it)?  Harbinger is testing him.

If IT is correct, then the battle is happening inside Shepards Mind yes?.  After the battle for earth, 'serve us' (and yes i do believe he does say that ), the whole crudible rubbish, the game ends and it returns back to cronos station. 

did you get that?

are you sure?

Think about it and read on......

All 4 endings are an illusion within shepards mind.  they are all part of Indoctrination.  

Agreed?

The symbolism of shepard and the kid burning is that Shepard is now undergoing the process of becoming indoctrinated (or the reapers think he is)   at the 'supposed' end of the game, Harbinger is showing Shepard all the consequences of his potential actions.  He is also showing him at the same time that in the grand scheme of things he has very very little choice when face to face with a reaper.  he is sewing the seeds of doubt in shepards mind.

If Shepard died here it would be GAME OVER.   New game from the beginning.  

Yet they send you back to Cronos Station every single time.  The credits may role but - and take note here - there is always one more story afterwards. Always.  No matter who the 'storyteller' is.  The game always resets at Cronos Station - where the next story begins.  He is not dead.       

Dont forget Bioware told you to hold onto your game saves.  remember?

This might mean Ending DLC.      

However this might also mean shepard might not be himself anymore.  That remains to be seen.    

Now heres the tricky bit.

What if  the incoming DLC reflects the way you chose? maybe subtle story differences - like your LI betraying you, or you becoming power hungry?  Your squad mates live or die by your choice of the 4 options available?    

There can only be one ending.  Defeating the Reapers.  Its how you get to that ending.  Who will you have to sacrifice?  Who will possibly betray you?  What price will shepard ultimately have to pay to end the reaper threat?

Thoughts?

[draconian139]

Debate over whether refuse could ever be a better option than destroy if the ending isn't real in any set of circumstances or whether destroy is simply the best option in every single circumstance imaginable.

[BansheeOwnage]

Norlond wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Norlord thank you!

Happy to help

Norlond thanks again for the Santa hat, although I did just remove it

[masster blaster]

Wait so TIM knew about Thessia long before after he got the data in the Prothean archives on Mars. Why didn't he go to Thessia before Shepard got info on about the Catalyst?Why didn't TIM just take the beacon on Thessia, and brought it back to his base, and extract the data by force?

[TheProtheans]

draconian139 wrote...

bah, double post, the first wasn't showing up for some reason.

Does it really matter.
If IT is indeed true then obviously refuse is the best option.

It is a safe IT bet and a safe transfer of money that will almost certainly never take place. 

Modifié par TheProtheans, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:12 .

[paxxton]

TJBartlemus wrote...

How much is 100 euro in American dollars anyway?

Multiply by about 1.3 I think.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:13 .

[draconian139]

@dorktainian, I'd love that, a chance for them to redeem the entirety of the Earth mission.

[demersel]

TJBartlemus wrote...

How much is 100 euro in American dollars anyway?

by today's exchange rates - it is 130 dollars and 50 cents. But will will settle it by the rates of the day when the bet is completed. 

[dorktainian]

draconian139 wrote...

@dorktainian, I'd love that, a chance for them to redeem the entirety of the Earth mission.

  it always struck me how odd it was that as soon as the storyteller says there is one more story you end up back at cronos station.  If he truly 'died' then surely you would be taken back to the game menu?  

I was also thinking.  What if the crudible isnt anything other than an Idea?  The choice you make determines your reality when you 'wake up'?

Modifié par dorktainian, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:16 .

[TJBartlemus]

masster blaster wrote...

Wait so TIM knew about Thessia long before after he got the data in the Prothean archives on Mars. Why didn't he go to Thessia before Shepard got info on about the Catalyst?Why didn't TIM just take the beacon on Thessia, and brought it back to his base, and extract the data by force?

 Cause he couldn't just waltz on in without having a large force to take it. That would draw a lot of attention onto him. He wants to win by deception remember. The Reaper invasion on Thessia is the perfect cover to waltz in, take the VI and walk on out without anyone knowing. Only problem was that Shepard got there first.

[demersel]

dorktainian wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

@dorktainian, I'd love that, a chance for them to redeem the entirety of the Earth mission.

  it always struck me how odd it was that as soon as the storyteller says there is one more story you end up back at cronos station.  If he truly 'died' then surely you would be taken back to the game menu?  

I was also thinking.  What if the crudible isnt anything other than an Idea?  The choice you make determines your reality when you 'wake up'?

Yes, that is indeed very possible. 


And it would be even more probable if you didn't learn any new relevant info during those two missions. But alas, you did learn one single piece of information that you can't know from anywhere else. 
Granted, it is only a single piece of info among the span of two entire missions, but still. 

Modifié par demersel, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:21 .

[masster blaster]

TJBartlemus wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Wait so TIM knew about Thessia long before after he got the data in the Prothean archives on Mars. Why didn't he go to Thessia before Shepard got info on about the Catalyst?Why didn't TIM just take the beacon on Thessia, and brought it back to his base, and extract the data by force?

 Cause he couldn't just waltz on in without having a large force to take it. That would draw a lot of attention onto him. He wants to win by deception remember. The Reaper invasion on Thessia is the perfect cover to waltz in, take the VI and walk on out without anyone knowing. Only problem was that Shepard got there first.

Then why didn't TIM tell the Reapers that Thessia had the info on the Catalyst? Why didn't Tim tell the Reapers abput Mars? Why didTIM wait until Shepard got on his base, and tell the Reapers that the Citadel is the Catalyst?

Modifié par masster blaster, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:20 .

[Norlond]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Norlond thanks again for the Santa hat, although I did just remove it

I'll remove mine soon, I'm thinking about a new look

This maybe?

Modifié par Norlond, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:20 .

[Skillz1986]

@the protheans

"obviously" the best ending huh?

It's obviously the best ending, because it is the only one in which the aftermath is presented in past tense to show that it really happened "we tried/ we failed" etc. As opposd to the others..which are presented in future...to imply what might happen...to show what shepard thinks will happen...figures.


Only bevaise you believe it to be the best ending doesn't make it the best ending

You keep repeating that every other choice is planted in your mind by the reapers. IT IS NOT...desrroy is there..because shepars always wanted to destroy them..it's what he went oit to do. The catalyst says this himself...it is not a choice offered to you by him. "i know you thought about destroying us"

And he tries everything to make you choose anything but destroy.

[draconian139]

dorktainian wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

@dorktainian, I'd love that, a chance for them to redeem the entirety of the Earth mission.

  it always struck me how odd it was that as soon as the storyteller says there is one more story you end up back at cronos station.  If he truly 'died' then surely you would be taken back to the game menu?  

I was also thinking.  What if the crudible isnt anything other than an Idea?  The choice you make determines your reality when you 'wake up'?

The obvious answer is of course a simple place to allow a player to do DLC content at.  Wait, this would be DLC content.  I still don't think its coming but I so wish it was.  I couldn't help but feel a little bit hopeful after hearing some of the information about the upcoming DLC but I'm not going to talk myself into believing its IT related.  I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than extremely disappointed as I was with EC.  

[umadcommander]

Norlond wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Norlond thanks again for the Santa hat, although I did just remove it

I'll remove mine soon, I'm thinking about a new look

This maybe?

needs a monocleB)

[demersel]

Skillz1986 wrote...

@the protheans

"obviously" the best ending huh?

Only bevaise you believe it to be the best ending doesn't make it the best ending

Just leave it. We've already made the bet. :innocent:

Modifié par demersel, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:30 .

[Skillz1986]

@dorktanian.

That's what i have been saying all the time.

The decision chamber only plants an idea..which shepard will follow ones he comes to his senses. That is what actual indoctrination is about. You conform someone to your ideals...your doctrne..and once that was successfull..you can more or less controll him. Cults work like this. I even explained it with ems (low/high/collector base destroyed-kept)

[TheProtheans]

Skillz1986 wrote...

@the protheans

"obviously" the best ending huh?

It's obviously the best ending, because it is the only one in which the aftermath is presented in past tense to show that it really happened "we tried/ we failed" etc. As opposd to the others..which are presented in future...to imply what might happen...to show what shepard thinks will happen...figures.


Only bevaise you believe it to be the best ending doesn't make it the best ending

You keep repeating that every other choice is planted in your mind by the reapers. IT IS NOT...desrroy is there..because shepars always wanted to destroy them..it's what he went oit to do. The catalyst says this himself...it is not a choice offered to you by him. "i know you thought about destroying us"

And he tries everything to make you choose anything but destroy.

While I can see where you're coming from as I use to have similar view before EC.
The Catalyst is happy which all the crucible options you pick, it is only in refusal does he become enraged.

The Catalyst is giving you want you think you want in Destroy, but in reality you're giving part of youself over to the Reapers.
He is just playing you, that is what Reapers do.
He is trying everything to stop you from picking the other two options by giving disapproval to the Destroy ending.
He wants you to pick destroy, because no matter if you believe him or not the Reapers win that bit more.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:30 .

[masster blaster]

Skillz1986 wrote...

@the protheans

"obviously" the best ending huh?

It's obviously the best ending, because it is the only one in which the aftermath is presented in past tense to show that it really happened "we tried/ we failed" etc. As opposd to the others..which are presented in future...to imply what might happen...to show what shepard thinks will happen...figures.


Only bevaise you believe it to be the best ending doesn't make it the best ending

You keep repeating that every other choice is planted in your mind by the reapers. IT IS NOT...desrroy is there..because shepars always wanted to destroy them..it's what he went oit to do. The catalyst says this himself...it is not a choice offered to you by him. "i know you thought about destroying us"

And he tries everything to make you choose anything but destroy.

But with the Ec it says

" It is now in your power to Destroy us."  However it is in
Shepard's power to Destroy the Reapers. So in a sense we have a chance
to beat the Reapers at their own game Indoctrination. Nobody has ever
beaten Indoctrination. The only close thing to come by is if you put a
bullet to the head.

When I say beaten I mean to literally fight
it. TIM didn't fight Indoctrination. He gave into the Reapers, as did
Saren, as did Kenson, as did so many. Kenson refused to blow up the Alpha
relay because she wanted the Reapers to come. Now Shepard is refusing
to Destroy the Reapers because he*she does not want to fight them this
way.

[Norlond]

umadcommander wrote...
needs a monocleB)

[Restrider]

TheProtheans wrote...



The surprise of what? They fooled people into thinking it was him waking up following the literal ending, it doesn't ruin it as most people still think that.
Others speculate but have no way of knowing.
Refusal would ruin the surprise, destroy wouldn't and didn't.

I wouldn't go that far to say that Destroy is a trap (though all three choices were fishy in my eyes in my first playthrough).

I understand the reasoning to say that Destroy is breaking the indoctrination and I support it.

However, I do not share the same outlook most regular posters in this thread have towards Refuse. Usually people paint it like only inactive, super-stubborn morons would choose it and make the wildest comparisons (like saying Kenson=Refuse, which is utter bullcrap in my eyes). I also understand their reasoning behind these assertions, but I do not share them. This line is usually neglected in this kind of discussion. It shows a behaviour that my Shepards usually had during the trilogy.
Regarding the lack of a breath scene in Refuse:
I'd say that Starbringer's "SO BE IT!" line could be that. It is vague enough to not totally spoil future (IT) content, but shows us an interesting aspect of Starbinger.
If we had a breath scene in Refuse (equal to that in Destroy), it would give away that something was totally off - even more than the breath scene in Destroy.
How would you even do that? Showing it after the Liara-VI scene, supposedly happening up to 50 000 years in the future and then jumping back to Shepard's time??? No way...

In conclusion:
Right now High EMS Destroy seems to be the best solution in regards to IT, but I would not discount Refuse at all.

Modifié par Restrider, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:43 .

[masster blaster]

TheProtheans wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

@the protheans

"obviously" the best ending huh?

It's obviously the best ending, because it is the only one in which the aftermath is presented in past tense to show that it really happened "we tried/ we failed" etc. As opposd to the others..which are presented in future...to imply what might happen...to show what shepard thinks will happen...figures.


Only bevaise you believe it to be the best ending doesn't make it the best ending

You keep repeating that every other choice is planted in your mind by the reapers. IT IS NOT...desrroy is there..because shepars always wanted to destroy them..it's what he went oit to do. The catalyst says this himself...it is not a choice offered to you by him. "i know you thought about destroying us"

And he tries everything to make you choose anything but destroy.

While I can see where you're coming from as I use to have similar view before EC.
The Catalyst is happy which all the crucible options you pick, it is only in refusal does he become enraged.

The Catalyst is giving you want you think you want in Destroy, but in reality you're giving part of youself over to the Reapers.
He is just playing you, that is what Reapers do.

Think about it this way. Destroy is Shepard staying to to his/her primeary mission. Refuse Shepard is not. It's like the Reapers respect Shepard. Hence why they let him/her pick Destroy. You also have to think about Harbinger is still around. If Shepard is not doing anything in Refuse, then Harbinger will kill Shepard. More over it's like Shepard is walking around in the Conduit area. What ending he/her picks is what's going to happen to her.

Refuse: Reapers refuse Shepard/
Destroy: Reapers Destroy Shepard, yet fail if you have high ems.
Control: Reapers gain control over Shepard.
Synthesis: Reapers synthesis Shepard.

[dorktainian]

Skillz1986 wrote...

@dorktanian.

That's what i have been saying all the time.

The decision chamber only plants an idea..which shepard will follow ones he comes to his senses. That is what actual indoctrination is about. You conform someone to your ideals...your doctrne..and once that was successfull..you can more or less controll him. Cults work like this. I even explained it with ems (low/high/collector base destroyed-kept)

  

I think the message of the endings got kinda missed.  Choose a path.  But only from the choices we give you.

INDOCTRINATION ALERT!!!!     

Which is why i stuck with Refusal.  The option to fight on our own terms.

**yay top again**  :happy:

Modifié par dorktainian, 03 janvier 2013 - 09:35 .

[paxxton]

The best ending is to choose all 4.