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[draconian139]

N7Avin180 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...

byne wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...

Hey guys, I've been in the forums for a while now just prowling and observing discussions but I decided that maybe getting involved would be more fun haha.

Anyway there is one thing I never really understood and am not crazy enough to wade through the multitude of pages to find the answer to.

What does Harbinger possibly hope to gain by indoctrinating Shepard?

To quote the Bastila Shan: "What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause? To use their own knowledge against them?"

To quote the codex: "Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations."

Edit: Partially 'd

Ah but the thing is galaxy were already faltering against the Reapers, with little to no hope except the Crucible. Had Harbinger outright lambasted Shepard with the beam, the resulting morale of everyone opposing the Reapers will dip immensely  and the Reapers will just go about with their harvesting.

I understand attempting to indoctrinate Shep at say Arrival but near the end where simply killing him will already result in much chaos? I just do not see the point. I am an ITer but this is just the one thing which has always dogged me.

There are many more possibilities.

Harbinger has an obsession with Shepard. He wants Shepard for a reason.

Every harvest ends with the construction of a new Reaper. This cycle, humanity was chosen for ascension. I think Harbinger wants to make Shepard the 'mind' of the new human Reaper.

Do Reapers have singular "minds" as such?

Sovereign led us to believe so.  "We are each a nation, independent[color=rgb(34, 34, 34)">, ]. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence"  People forget what precedes this.  "[/color][b][color=rgb(34, 34, 34)">I am beyond your comprehension.  ]He only uses we when he's specifically talking about Reapers in general.[/color]

Modifié par draconian139, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:04 .

[N7Avin180]

Genetic Destiny wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...

byne wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...

Hey guys, I've been in the forums for a while now just prowling and observing discussions but I decided that maybe getting involved would be more fun haha.

Anyway there is one thing I never really understood and am not crazy enough to wade through the multitude of pages to find the answer to.

What does Harbinger possibly hope to gain by indoctrinating Shepard?

To quote the Bastila Shan: "What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause? To use their own knowledge against them?"

To quote the codex: "Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations."

Edit: Partially 'd

Ah but the thing is galaxy were already faltering against the Reapers, with little to no hope except the Crucible. Had Harbinger outright lambasted Shepard with the beam, the resulting morale of everyone opposing the Reapers will dip immensely  and the Reapers will just go about with their harvesting.

I understand attempting to indoctrinate Shep at say Arrival but near the end where simply killing him will already result in much chaos? I just do not see the point. I am an ITer but this is just the one thing which has always dogged me.

I doubt it would effectively crush the resistance's morale if Harbinger killed Shepard during the beam run. Most would likely be fueled with more rage and want to avenge the person who brought the galaxy together to fight the reapers. One example would be Thane and Kai Leng; when Thane was killed by him, many players despised Leng for doing that. Many in-game characters hate the reapers for exactly the same reason: they killed their loved ones. If you add Shepard, an icon, to that massive list of casualties you have guaranteed hatred from his/her closest friends and everyone who follows them.

Its much easier to have Shepard lead everyone to their deaths than to kill him/her.

No it will not effectively crush the resistance's morale had Harbinger killed Shepard. And I do agree with you on the point where many would be fueled with rage.

But painted in a different light, Shep could be seen as a bastion of the galaxy, the one who has all the strength and resolve to effectively take down the Reapers. Had he fallen what hope did they have? The one man who united the galaxy couldn't defeat the Reapers, how could anyone else?

This all also depends on a person psychological fuel however. Someone like say Garrus or Javik may be fueled with rage but what about the average joe who looks up to Shepard, something like a Conrad Verner?

[Rosewind]

byne wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

byne wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

People do realise that there are million upon million planets in the galaxy?

No. There are only six. Dont be crazy.

Okay okay my life is over all those books and docos i watch were wrong!

Indeed.

Also, the moon doesnt exist. Its just the back of the sun.

Nooooo! *throws self of cliff*

[N7Avin180]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...

byne wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...

Hey guys, I've been in the forums for a while now just prowling and observing discussions but I decided that maybe getting involved would be more fun haha.

Anyway there is one thing I never really understood and am not crazy enough to wade through the multitude of pages to find the answer to.

What does Harbinger possibly hope to gain by indoctrinating Shepard?

To quote the Bastila Shan: "What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause? To use their own knowledge against them?"

To quote the codex: "Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations."

Edit: Partially 'd

Ah but the thing is galaxy were already faltering against the Reapers, with little to no hope except the Crucible. Had Harbinger outright lambasted Shepard with the beam, the resulting morale of everyone opposing the Reapers will dip immensely  and the Reapers will just go about with their harvesting.

I understand attempting to indoctrinate Shep at say Arrival but near the end where simply killing him will already result in much chaos? I just do not see the point. I am an ITer but this is just the one thing which has always dogged me.

There are many more possibilities.

Harbinger has an obsession with Shepard. He wants Shepard for a reason.

Every harvest ends with the construction of a new Reaper. This cycle, humanity was chosen for ascension. I think Harbinger wants to make Shepard the 'mind' of the new human Reaper.

Do Reapers have singular "minds" as such?

Hard to say. But it seems like they see everyone and everything as resources. They seem to harvest species for their genetic abilities, and they deem Shepard special. Maybe Shepard would be the 'personality' of the new Reaper. Just throwing out an idea.

I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this happen in synthesis.

When you talk to Sovereign, he seems like one entity, even though he says "we". Same goes for Harbinger. So yeah, maybe many minds, with one 'ruling mind'.

I wouldn't be surprised if 'Nazara' was the name of the species Sovereign was harvested from.

Ah I always thought it may have been something like the geth consensus, where the slight difference being is that they are a multitude of minds working as one, almost never disagreeing.

[draconian139]

Again, he uses I. He only switches to we when talking about Reapers in general.

[N7Avin180]

draconian139 wrote...

Again, he uses I. He only switches to we when talking about Reapers in general.

Valid point. But does this mean that a Reaper can go rogue if he wanted to? Considering it is it's own mind. Or does the Catalyst "control" all Reapers? Limiting what they can or cannot do?

[draconian139]

What Catalyst?

[N7Avin180]

draconian139 wrote...

What Catalyst?

Starchild. If that answers your question haha.

[N7Avin180]

magnetite wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

Again, he uses I. He only switches to we when talking about Reapers in general.

Valid point. But does this mean that a Reaper can go rogue if he wanted to? Considering it is it's own mind. Or does the Catalyst "control" all Reapers? Limiting what they can or cannot do?

Starchild is Harbinger, remember? Leviathan stated this I believe.

Harbinger said, "we fight as one". Kind of like thousands of Reapers working in sequence to achieve the same goal. .

Huh? I thought Harbinger was the first Reaper? The one made using the Levitahans, and Starchild was the "intelligence" Leviathan spoke of?

[draconian139]

Arguably the "Catalyst" doesn't even exist.

[Genetic Destiny]

N7Avin180 wrote...

No it will not effectively crush the resistance's morale had Harbinger killed Shepard. And I do agree with you on the point where many would be fueled with rage.

But painted in a different light, Shep could be seen as a bastion of the galaxy, the one who has all the strength and resolve to effectively take down the Reapers. Had he fallen what hope did they have? The one man who united the galaxy couldn't defeat the Reapers, how could anyone else?

This all also depends on a person psychological fuel however. Someone like say Garrus or Javik may be fueled with rage but what about the average joe who looks up to Shepard, something like a Conrad Verner?

I can certainly see the reapers working that angle on the minds of quite a few to bring them down, and I agree that it depends on the individual. It can go in many directions from there, so your guess is definitely as good as mine.

[Genetic Destiny]

magnetite wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...
Huh? I thought Harbinger was the first Reaper? The one made using the Levitahans, and Starchild was the "intelligence" Leviathan spoke of?

The intelligence gathered an army of pawns searching the galaxy for physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos, Leviathan is referring to Harbinger enslaving the Collectors (which he mentions).

Therefore, I believe Harbinger is the Intelligence.

Remember though, you refuse, and he gets all mad and starts sounding like a Reaper (SO BE IT).

Wait I'm not following. The intelligence existed long before the Protheans were even primitive right? The reapers were around already by their time, so it couldn't have made the Collectors before making Harbinger.

[N7Avin180]

magnetite wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...
Huh? I thought Harbinger was the first Reaper? The one made using the Levitahans, and Starchild was the "intelligence" Leviathan spoke of?

The intelligence gathered an army of pawns searching the galaxy for physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos, Leviathan is referring to Harbinger enslaving the Collectors (which he mentions).

Therefore, I believe Harbinger is the Intelligence.

Remember though, you refuse, and he gets all mad and starts sounding like a Reaper (SO BE IT).

Huh, that just changed what I thought, I thank you for that.

But doesn't the Leviathan specifically mention that the intelligence used their essence to create "the one Shepard calls Harbinger". Because I swear that is exactly what the Levitahan said.

[draconian139]

I still haven't played Leviathan but is there anything in it that would mandate this intelligence actually still existing? If not its entirely possible that it was destroyed long ago by Reapers rebelling against it.

[N7Avin180]

draconian139 wrote...

I still haven't played Leviathan but is there anything in it that would mandate this intelligence actually still existing? If not its entirely possible that it was destroyed long ago by Reapers rebelling against it.

Leviathan was interesting and definitely gives significant insight on Reaper lore, I'd recommend it. From what I've seen there is nothing there which suggests the intelligence does not exist.

In fact it ENFORCES the fact that the intelligence exists.

[draconian139]

magnetite wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

I still haven't played Leviathan but is there anything in it that would mandate this intelligence actually still existing? If not its entirely possible that it was destroyed long ago by Reapers rebelling against it.

That kid doesn't exist. It is said he is a symbol of the people who Shepard could not save. No mention of a "Reaper God" in the Final Hours app.

Remember, talking to the kid, Anderson calls to you and when you turn around, the kid is gone. Followed by a reaper growling noise (indoctrination rejected, as per Mass Effect: Retribution novel with Paul Grayson)

Yea, I know that the kid doesn't exist.  What's that got to do with my question?

[Dwailing]

OK, I just want to share a few things that I've thought of recently.  These may have been covered, but I feel I should bring them up anyway.  First thing: Brat says that Synthesis is "inevitable."  However, if you choose Destroy or Control, there is no evidence of it happening, even in the 300-500 years later slides.  It's possible it just hasn't happened yet, but it still seems odd to me.  Second thing: When he says that "(we're) ready" for Synthesis, how does the presence of, say, 50 Vorcha Sentinels, or even the condition of the Crucible, affect whether we're "ready" for Synthesis?  You could say it's something about how we're united against a common enemy, but that still seems weird, especially since EMS is not dependent on the variety of races in the war.  I should also note that I guess those 50 Vorcha Sentinels ARE part of a larger, more diverse and united team, but it still seems odd to me.  Last thing: In the quarian/geth slide in Synthesis, the quarians are shown without their masks on.  I'm thinking, is this one of the more recent slides?  Or is it one of the long term slides?  If the former, then Tali still wearing her mask at the Memorial Wall scene seems very odd to me, since she really SHOULDN'T need it anymore.  If the latter, I guess it's more explainable, but again, it seems odd to me.

[draconian139]

N7Avin180 wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

I still haven't played Leviathan but is there anything in it that would mandate this intelligence actually still existing? If not its entirely possible that it was destroyed long ago by Reapers rebelling against it.

Leviathan was interesting and definitely gives significant insight on Reaper lore, I'd recommend it. From what I've seen there is nothing there which suggests the intelligence does not exist.

In fact it ENFORCES the fact that the intelligence exists.

How does it enforce this?  All the quotes I've seen referencing this intelligence are all about things that happened eons ago.

[N7Avin180]

draconian139 wrote...

N7Avin180 wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

I still haven't played Leviathan but is there anything in it that would mandate this intelligence actually still existing? If not its entirely possible that it was destroyed long ago by Reapers rebelling against it.

Leviathan was interesting and definitely gives significant insight on Reaper lore, I'd recommend it. From what I've seen there is nothing there which suggests the intelligence does not exist.

In fact it ENFORCES the fact that the intelligence exists.

How does it enforce this?  All the quotes I've seen referencing this intelligence are all about things that happened eons ago.

Ah yes my bad. i should reword what I had said, it enforces that there was an intelligence in the beginning? That may be a better way to put it.

Oh and slightly off topic, why haven't you picked up Leviathan?

[Dwailing]

Hey, I just had a crazy thought. What slide is shown in Synthesis if the quarians wiped out the geth and vice versa?