80611 réponses à ce sujet

[masster blaster]

Hey Lex. Where have you been in the last 5 day?

[lex0r11]

masster blaster wrote...

Hey Lex. Where have you been in the last 5 day?

I'm in London right now, trying to find out what's so special about this place..

Just kidding. Staying here with some friends for the last games of the Olympics.
I was at the opening ceremony too. So gud.

[Hrothdane]

lex0r11 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Hey Lex. Where have you been in the last 5 day?

I'm in London right now, trying to find out what's so special about this place..

Just kidding. Staying here with some friends for the last games of the Olympics.
I was at the opening ceremony too. So gud.

Hey, if you are in London, could you keep an eye out for that Reaper beam? If you could find it and check it out for us, it might clear up some questions.

[masster blaster]

Well report back to the us about any Reaper activity in London Lex, and go to have you back:ph34r:k.

Modifié par masster blaster, 11 août 2012 - 04:04 .

[Urdnot Amenark]

TheConstantOne wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...
And some of the most brilliant IT theorists are male too. 

And yes, we do tend to be nice, provided we're approached with, if not an open mind, at least a bit of respect.

The moment we're named conspiracy theorists, or someone tells us to get our tinfoil hats, well they just declared where they stand.

We even had one guy at one point indicating we should all commit suicide with poisoned kool-aid if IT were proven wrong (When it was, in his words.)

Are you serious?!

I know people can be disrespectful sometimes- or most of it- But this is just... Disgusting. To say the least.

Yes. Yes it is.

And they wonder why even I tend to get short with some of these people... >.>

WOW! I never saw that post.  It's amazing how people can be so hostile over a completely valid opinion.  I guess such behavior is what happens when people believe that the internet makes them personally invulnerable. 

That person should've been banned. Have they?

[Dancing-Krogan]

Anybody else hear Uncharted Workds during a biop of one the USA athletes?

[lex0r11]

Hrothdane wrote...

[...]

Hey, if you are in London, could you keep an eye out for that Reaper beam? If you could find it and check it out for us, it might clear up some questions.

I might have to stop doing that for bit. Had a run-in with some officials about me running around all over the place with military grade hardware. Have to bring those back after my visit or I'm in trouble.

[The Twilight God]

Arian Dynas wrote...
The majority of this argument is based off the fact that the Crucible Chamber and the Beam Shuffle (the area directly in front of the beam) are remarkably similar to one another in appearance and layout. Instead of grasping a actual Crucible Control panel, arcing with electricity, Shepard could be grabbing a pair of downed wires. Instead of diving into a Synthesis-Beam, Shepard could be throwing himself at the Reaper Beam. Instead of firing at some Synthetic-Destroying Tube, Shepard could just as easily be shooting at some piece of Reaper equipment.

What is your explaination for events that transpire after Shepard's incineration in the Control and Synthesis endings? What are your thoughts on the Refusal?

Indoctrination does INCORPORATE physical changes, but with the exception of brain chemistry, indoctrination does not itself change the body. It does make the subject more willing to undergo Reaper Implantation.

An alteration to brain chemistry and the taking over of the limbic system are physicological changes. These things can't be resisted. But since you are stating Shepard is hallucinating this isn't a problem.

Basically, not all indoctrinated individuals have glowing blue eyes like those of The Illusive Man, but everyone who has those eyes is indoctrinated.

I disagree. Anyone could have their eyes replaced with synthetic glowing eyes. What exactly was the point in taking out the collectors and the reaper fetus if TIM was indoctrinated in ME2?

Think of this less as "Shepard beats something in a dream" and more "Representation of Shepard's Ego resists indoctrination"

Do you believe TIM or Anderson were present in the Citadel scene?

Or do you think TIMs fate is unknown and Anderson died with the rest of Hammer?

Indoctrination, unlike radiation, is not a physical threat, it's a mental one.

Mental is physiological. Indoctrination results in physical changes unless you think it's some form of spiritual warfare and the Reapers are actually transdimensional entites of some sort who interact with our physical plane via the cuttlefish dreadnaughts.
 
If you are saying Shepard did actually walk around, but his perception of his surrounds is hallucinatory then it is plausible (i.e. in the process of indoctrination, but not indoctrinated).

And for the record, Indoctrination can be "beaten" in a sense. Saren and The Illusive Man both can do so. Though, since they were both completely indoctrinated, it ended in their suicide. Also, the Feros Colonists, Shiala and The Rachni have resisted Indoctrination for years, due to the helpful influences of a hive mind.

I wouldn't consider resisting long enough to kill yourself or being mildly indoctrinated realizing it long enough to kill yourself beating indoctrination. Their suicides are in actuallyity an admission of their defeat. A triumph over the Reapers themselves? Maybe, but not a triumph over indoctrination. 

Shiala didn't beat indoctrination. The Thorian's involvement supplanted one form of control for another. Then it died leaving her free. The Rachni Queen doesn't resist it. She seems magically immune. Which doesn't make any sense and comes of as handwaving to explain why the rachni can be trusted. They never really explain how this queen is immune, while the ones in the past weren't.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 11 août 2012 - 04:55 .

[masster blaster]

Twilight god Maybe Leviathan will link his mind into Shepard's, and maybe the Rachni too. I mean that could be why Shepard is alive in Destroy, and not some mindless husk, like rapid indoctrination states.

[masster blaster]

Also Twilight God, I think Arian is still sore about you creating " Are you Indcotrinated thread, and explained IT in words instead of using evidnce in the gam, and what ever we have found, and it's the same stuff we have told the people that come into this thread, and say IT is wrong, or worse. So take it easy on Arian.

[byne]

masster blaster wrote...

Also Twilight God, I think Arian is still sore about you creating " Are you Indcotrinated thread, and explained IT in words instead of using evidnce in the gam, and what ever we have found, and it's the same stuff we have told the people that come into this thread, and say IT is wrong, or worse. So take it easy on Arian.

I dont think Arian was ever mad about that, masster.

[masster blaster]

Well he was mad about the people in the thread, how they believe what Twilight God is saying, even though we have tell them the same thing, since day 1. Also they did treat Arian very bad in the Thread.

[Arian Dynas]

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also Twilight God, I think Arian is still sore about you creating " Are you Indcotrinated thread, and explained IT in words instead of using evidnce in the gam, and what ever we have found, and it's the same stuff we have told the people that come into this thread, and say IT is wrong, or worse. So take it easy on Arian.

I dont think Arian was ever mad about that, masster.

No. I wasn't. And I don't need you attempting to defend me Masster. I am quite capable of doing so on my own.

What I was annoyed with was the hypocrisy of the people lauding his statements as brilliant, when they happen to be precisely what it is that IT bases itself on.

[The Twilight God]

masster blaster wrote...

Also Twilight God, I think Arian is still sore about you creating " Are you Indcotrinated thread, and explained IT in words instead of using evidnce in the gam, and what ever we have found, and it's the same stuff we have told the people that come into this thread, and say IT is wrong, or worse. So take it easy on Arian.

Sore? Why?

My theory uses in-game dialog and events to infer indoctrination took place. It's an Reapers can't be trusted thesis as much as indoctination. The damn Star Kid is just such a liar.

[lex0r11]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

[...]

WOW! I never saw that post.  It's amazing how people can be so hostile over a completely valid opinion.  I guess such behavior is what happens when people believe that the internet makes them personally invulnerable. 

That person should've been banned. Have they?

I remember that person. Not the exact words, but the essence was "recommended suicide". Believe it was while having an argument with me too.

No, I will not write his name. Not worth it. Only that he could speak German to help some of you remember.

[masster blaster]

Lex wan't like on page 1693 when that happened. I mean the person you are talking about.

[masster blaster]

And sorry Arian but you have my back, so I thought I would repay you. Sorry.=)

Modifié par masster blaster, 11 août 2012 - 05:20 .

[Urdnot Amenark]

lex0r11 wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

[...]

WOW! I never saw that post.  It's amazing how people can be so hostile over a completely valid opinion.  I guess such behavior is what happens when people believe that the internet makes them personally invulnerable. 

That person should've been banned. Have they?

I remember that person. Not the exact words, but the essence was "recommended suicide". Believe it was while having an argument with me too.

No, I will not write his name. Not worth it. Only that he could speak German to help some of you remember.

Just crazy. How can something as simple as a videogame subject drive a person to say that? I mean, I think aspects of the IT are a bit laughable at times, but I nonetheless appreciate and respect those who put reasonable effort and consideration into it.

[masster blaster]

That's it I have had it I am not going out of this thread, well except to TSA's thread, and WNM thread, but everything else hell no. One the other thread are off topic. Two calling ME3 bad writing, and three calling IT BS, and saying that we ITers are cults. Really people. Do you know what a cult is, and what they do in cults. Also what's up with people saying " Mike gamble sucks", when he is trying to help us understand what happened at the end, but not reveling anything to big yet.

But people come on. If IT is true, then how is it still worser than bad writing? One new endings are avalible. Two maybe a boss battle with TIM, and Harbinger, or somebody else. Conventional victroy possible, and maybe we can see Shepard, and his/her LI be together doing what ever Bioware makes them do. Oh and Three have you ever Consider the fact, that Bioware could keep the endings that they have, but expaned on the one ending, that is the ultimate ending the fans want. Also IT is just the breaking point, not an ending it'self.

Think about it if IT is proven, we still have to speculate, on what happence next. We know that Shepard wakes up in Destroy, but what happence next.

[DJBare]

ZerebusPrime wrote...
Exactly my point.  It didn't matter.  If there had been a trial, Spectre status could have given us cover.

It would not have given cover, you are back with the alliance, it would be a military court martial if anything, personally I'd see it as a major cop out if Shepard could walk just because of his/her spectre status, as far as I'm aware, the spectre status is secondary to his/her millitary career.

[masster blaster]

Urdnot Amer. We do. We go through EVERYTHING. From the game, to the Comic books, to the game files, to the main story, to the ME timeline, to other moves that Bioware could have used/did use, and much more. Hours, and hours of videos, essays, and telling people that hey we are a vaild possibility to the end of ME3. We are not some fan theory, like some others, but it's because we have the speculations to back us up, and I can show the people that call ME3 bad writing false, since I have been looking at the comics, and they are more like learning ME's history, more than for the fun of it.

And there are some sertain elements, that are from the comics, that are in ME3.

[masster blaster]

The reason why I say that ME3 is not bad writing, is because off a few things.

One if you read the comics, you get to know more about TIM, and Saren, on how they came to be in ME, and in ME2, and ME3.

Also they had Kai Leng, and Sanders brought from the comics, into ME3. And they didn't really need that much back ground, since you were suppose to read the comics.

Also during Evolution TIM is trying to stop Sarens brother, into turning the Turian people into super Turians, also know as Meta Truians, into his personal army, that will alow his species, to dominate the galaxy.

Now in ME3.TIM want's to Control theReapers, just Like Saren's brother wanted to Control the Meta Turians, but couldn't since the Reapers were using the Meta Turians, to turn the Turian population into the Reapers own army.

Well TIM is just like Saren's brother, only this time, TIM want's to use the Reapers own Tech, into Controlling them. Well Sraen's brother wanted to find the way to Control the Meta Turians, but he found his solution to use theReaper tech, to Control the Meta Turians, but it didn't work.

Also in Evolution, we can find out more about TIM, and how he came to be, and what changed him, and how he got the Indoctrinated eyes.

There is so much I could compare the comics, into the ME3 plot with TIM, and Shepard, but will do that, when I am less sleepy. Also I like to point out on Thessia TIM's response to Shepard about he as sacrifice more for humanity than Shepard would now, and has been fighting the Reapers longer than Shepard now, but the PLAYER know about that, because if you read Evolution, you understand what TIM is saying, but Shepard doesn't.

This also can help support IT, because if Bioware is putting hints about you don't know me in TIM's chat with Shepard, then Shepard does not know that at the end Shepard is being Indoctrinated, but the Player does.

[TheConstantOne]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

[...]

WOW! I never saw that post.  It's amazing how people can be so hostile over a completely valid opinion.  I guess such behavior is what happens when people believe that the internet makes them personally invulnerable. 

That person should've been banned. Have they?

I remember that person. Not the exact words, but the essence was "recommended suicide". Believe it was while having an argument with me too.

No, I will not write his name. Not worth it. Only that he could speak German to help some of you remember.

Just crazy. How can something as simple as a videogame subject drive a person to say that? I mean, I think aspects of the IT are a bit laughable at times, but I nonetheless appreciate and respect those who put reasonable effort and consideration into it.

Ah, I think I know of whom you speak Lex.  Also, very awesome that you'e attending the Olympic ceremonies.  That should definitely be a memorable vacation.

And we appreciate the open minded consideration Urdnot.  As an ITer, I am proud to say that we need open minded skeptics to visit the thread.  It helps to curtail some of the more abstract ideas and give us fuel on what we need to elaborate more on

[Arian Dynas]

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
The majority of this argument is based off the fact that the Crucible Chamber and the Beam Shuffle (the area directly in front of the beam) are remarkably similar to one another in appearance and layout. Instead of grasping a actual Crucible Control panel, arcing with electricity, Shepard could be grabbing a pair of downed wires. Instead of diving into a Synthesis-Beam, Shepard could be throwing himself at the Reaper Beam. Instead of firing at some Synthetic-Destroying Tube, Shepard could just as easily be shooting at some piece of Reaper equipment.[/quote]

What is your explaination for events that transpire after Shepard's incineration in the Control and Synthesis endings? What are your thoughts on the Refusal?
[/quote]

The Incineration is symbolic, it never happened. In Control Shepard surrenders his body to the Reapers, giving them his body, though he believes he continues to resist.

In Synthesis, he gives in to the Reaper philosophy, diving forward into the unknown. Letting fate, chance, and the Reapers take him where they will.

After that? It's Shepard's mind extrapolating from there, either images he uses to comfort himself into believing he did the right thing, comforting himself with the idea that the galaxy is saved, that all his friends and compatriots survived and went on to live happy, long contented lives without him. It explains why Synthesis is so sacharrine, as well as the Gilligan's Planet bit, which spawned from several conversations throughout the game, indicating from several characters they would like the idea of just going to a secluded beach planet somewhere.

As for my thoughts on Refuse, I direct you to this;

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...
[quote]RavenEyry wrote...

[quote]UltimateTobi wrote...
Reject is just a big fail, and was never planned. So I don't think it counts, though the "So be it!" could be a little hint.

[/quote]
The voice change, as well as giving you a big clue to Mr. Sparkle's true identity, also shows how angry he is that you wouldn't make a choice. He's supposedly been doing this cycle for millions of years, but now he's bigging up synthesis and getting upset if you let the cycle continue.

My interpretation is Harby gets very angry that you wont play his little game.

[/quote]

Not even that.

He's angry that he ruined the target.

Destroy is him going "Oh, well fine then. Be that way, have your little tantrum. I WILL have you, soon enough. I can be patient."

Refuse? Refuse means he's broken Shepard.

Shepard by nature is a man of action. Every option you are given, Paragon or Renegade? You still are taking an action. Only the neutral options let you opt out, they never turn out well, and they removed them in ME3. Paragon and Renegade are both still heroes, their methods and motivations vary, but they do share the same goals, Paragon is not good, merely charming and peaceable. Likewise Renegade is not evil, merely violent and direct.

Shepard always has a goal. Always. For three games it was "Destroy the Reapers and damn the consequences, this war WILL have casualties."

And now we have Shepard going "I don't want to be their killer, so I am going to let everyone die just so I don't have to do something I perceive as immoral." That's not Shepard. It might not necessarily be wrong, but it's not Shepard. Even if Destroy was the only option, Shepard would STILL take an option.

Bill Casey's sig puts it pretty well. Shepard is not a hero or a messiah. He's a soldier.

Harbinger WANTS Shepard. He wants Shepard exactly as he is. He isn't looking for "Not-Shepard". Choosing Refuse, Shepard has chosen not to commit one way or another, to opt out. Refuse means he has lost his determination, his necessary drive that was an integral part of him. He lost the part of himself that Harbinger wanted. He's useless to them now. What's more, he's a frustration. Somehow, in the final moment, not only did he deny Harbinger his prize, he also denied him further methods of acquiring it.

It would be like just before crossing the finish line, watching someone not only run off with your trophy, but also break it so you couldn't posess it. [/quote]
[quote] 

[quote]Indoctrination does INCORPORATE physical changes, but with the exception of brain chemistry, indoctrination does not itself change the body. It does make the subject more willing to undergo Reaper Implantation.[/quote]

An alteration to brain chemistry and the taking over of the limbic system are physicological changes. These things can't be resisted. But since you are stating Shepard is hallucinating this isn't a problem.

[/quote]

They are physiological changes. But they can be reisted. Thoughts and personality, actions, deeds, things like that DO have a legitimate effect on brain chemistry. The brain is just a chemical supercomputer after all.

Seriously, look it up, things like the Placebo Effect, Mass Hysteria, ect. The brain can effect the body. Shepard hallucinating can have effects on his body, if the brain perceives the body as being in pain, it can release natural painkillers, hence why some people, when in a crazed state seem incapable of feeling pain.

But I'll not go any further on a tangent.
[quote] 

[quote]Basically, not all indoctrinated individuals have glowing blue eyes like those of The Illusive Man, but everyone who has those eyes is indoctrinated.[/quote]

I disagree. Anyone could have their eyes replaced with synthetic glowing eyes. What exactly was the point in taking out the collectors and the reaper fetus if TIM was indoctrinated in ME2?
[/quote]

Just because he's indoctrinated does not mean that he doesn't resist. He gave in slightly before the events of ME3. Before that he was still resisting. No one can deny he's indoctrinated, it's a major part of his backstory. It's merely to what degree. At some point previously we worked out roughly the stages of indoctrination;

"Fast Indoctrination" or The Motor Control Stage - Synaptic pathways in the brain are remapped, overwriting the personality of the individual, as well as both higher and lower brain fuctions, leaving only the most basic regulatory functions, centered in the reptillian brain. The subject is rendered incapable of self defense, and is no longer able to care for itself, having been reduced to little more than a drooling animal, capable of only receiving direct orders from the Reaper itself. The Salarian STG troopers on Virmire are an example of this.

Stage 1 Slow, or The Subliminal Stage - First encounter with the Reaper, or indoctrinating device. There are no specific symptoms, the subject instead becomes a sort of "carrier". Either sufficient time or continued exposure advances them along to this stage. Think of it as being like a run in a nylon stocking. Give it time, and once the run has started, it will tear on it's own, but put some stress on it and it tears faster. Shepard was at this stage in ME1. Of course, if the subject does not have sufficient willpower, they can end up becoming the drooling animal shown in the Motor Control Stage at any time, rather than progressing further along the slow indoctrination stages,

Stage 2 Slow, or The Subconcious Stage - The Reaper begins to manifest it's presence, perception based senses, such as sight and hearing are now under it's control, allowing it to manifest auditory hallucinations, feelings of being watched, general paranoia and bad dreams. The Reaper may speak to the subject directly at this point, manifesting it's voice as a sort of hallucinatory telempathy. Shepard is here at roughly the beginning of ME3, and has been for the 6 months since the events of The Arrival. He also shows symptoms of this throughout ME2, whenever Harbinger speaks to him

Stage 3 Slow, or the Hallucinatory-Preperatory Stage - The Reaper now controls the information processing ccenters of the brain, forcing the subject to perceive ghostly presences,and nonexistent beings. If there are multiple subjects present and in close quarters with one another at this stage they may begin to share memories unconciously, or experience shared hallucinations and dreams as preperation for integration with one another as a Reaper gestalt mind. The Cerberus Science Team on the Derelict Reaper are an excellent example of this.

Stage 4a Slow, or the Mental Domination Stage - The Reaper now has control of the prefrontal cortex, and can directly manipulate personality, personal values and attack their sense of ethics in a way they cannot defend themselves from. The subject may continue to actively resist up to this stage, though their motives, perception of reality, as well as their actions and emotions may be manipulated by the Reapers. The Illusive Man is at roughly this stage by the middle of ME3.

Stage 4b Slow, or the Ultimatum Stage - The subject has managed to resist to the point that the Reaper must force the subject to accept their veiwpoint, either through trickery, intimidation or manipulation. Shepard is at this stage near the end of ME3.

Stage 5, Implantation - The subject's body has been physically altered by incorporation of Reaper technology into it's body, by way of nanides or surgery. Husks and Saren both occupy this stage, Saren being the result of slow indoctrination with implantation, and husks being implantation as a method of speeding fast indoctrination.

Understand of course that a subject can occupy several of these stages at once, or may move between them moving backward or forward depending on their mental resolve and amount of physical and or mental stress.

Either wayShepard has had far more than enough contact to indoctrinate him 30 times over. The Arca Monolith, the object responsible for the indoctrination of Saren and The Illusive Man, could turn a human being from zero to husk in less than a second. It indoctrinated TIM and Saren via contact from beings who touched the Monolith alone.

That, and while yes, someone could give themselves similar eyes, in the story, those eyes are only ever associated with the indoctrinated, and as Shepard's implants show, there are synthetic eyes, but they bear an entirely different pattern. The eyes of The Illusive Man, and Saren are unique to the indoctrinated.

[quote] 
[quote]Think of this less as "Shepard beats something in a dream" and more "Representation of Shepard's Ego resists indoctrination"[/quote]Do you believe TIM or Anderson were present in the Citadel scene?

Or do you think TIMs fate is unknown and Anderson died with the rest of Hammer?
[/quote]

I think that TIM and Anderson were never present, and were in fact, manifestations of Shepard's own personality.

Anderson is the Defender, Shepard's moral compass, his father figure, his Superego, if you will.

The Illusive Man is his other mentor, his shoulder devil, his Id.

Shepard himself is his Ego, which needs to reach a compromise between the Id and Superego.

Anderson, the Defender, is the subconcious aspect of Shepard that has resisted the subconcious attacks of the Reapers since ME1 ("It feels like years since I just sat down.") He is Shepard's moral compass, the part that has kept him on target from the beginning. What better individual to personify that for Shepard, than the father-figure of David Anderson? Anderson is also vastly simplified from real life, as we see, he is less a personality and more a symbol, Shepard perceives him as a single, aging soldier, who never had a family, and always does right by whatever he does. In reality, the actual Anderson DOES have a family, and while he does the right thing, even when others think he is wrong, he isn't actually the complete paragon of honor and nobility Shepard thinks he is. It's also why Anderson looks absolutely pristine, untouched and uninjured, because he is "pure".

The Illusive Man, the Invader, is the subconcious aspect of Shepard that has succumbed to the Reapers. It is NOT indoctrination or a Reaper itself, merely an aspect of Shepard's mind that has given in. It require's Shepard's belief to survive, to exist. It's also why TIM himself seems to be as simplified as Anderson. He suddenly goes from "I neither need your support nor your approval." to suddenly being "I need you to believe."  you can also see why he not only looks slightly younger than the Real TIM, (since his appearance here is  based off of what Shepard has seen of him through a QEC) but also why his appearance looks like a husk, when mere hours ago, he looked fine.

And part of the major reason the two are there, is because to Shepard's mind, as well as ours, it seems logical that they would be there. As far as Shepard knows, TIM is on the Citadel, and it makes sense to him for Anderson to be there as well.

So by being forced by The Invader, to fire upon The Defender, Shepard, The Ego, has weakened the part of himself that has stood firm until now. If Anderson survives, Shepard has an opportunity to reconcile with the aspect of his personality that has defended him so long, allowing him to come to terms with himself. It's also a bit like Dragon Age, when you speak to the wraith of the person from your past, like your father if you were a human noble, or being forgiven by Leske, even if the real one did not and would not forgive you, you get a bit of a pep-talk from them, as well as getting an answer to the effect of; "Even if it's not real, you needed this catharsis, to talk to this person, to let some of that negative emotion loose, so you could move forward, unburdened."

TIM is an agent of the Reapers. He is an unwilling agent, much like Saren, as Megumi pointed out, but he does their bidding nonetheless. Indoctrination is not mind control. It's slightly altered convincing. As Benezia said "his arguments become more persuasive." It's in the name, indoctrination, meaning to align to a set of ideas or philosophies.

In other words, both TIM and Anderson are likely quite alive still.

[quote] 
[quote]
Indoctrination, unlike radiation, is not a physical threat, it's a mental one. [/quote]
Mental is physiological. Indoctrination results in physical changes unless you think it's some form of spiritual warfare and the Reapers are actually transdimensional entites of some sort who interact with our physical plane via the cuttlefish dreadnaughts.
 
If you are saying Shepard did actually walk around, but his perception of his surrounds is hallucinatory then it is plausible (i.e. in the process of indoctrination, but not indoctrinated).

[/quote]

Quite correct. But as I said, the brain has physical effects on the body via brain chemistry.

Indoctrination is equal parts psychological, and equal parts chemical. The Reaper needs to convince the subject to agree with them, hence it's name, Indoctrination, to initiate one into a set of beliefs or doctrines. Indoctrination is not mind control, it's distinct from mind control. It's not that it makes you do things that you don't want to do, it's that it makes you want to do them.

Which is precisely what our premise is, yes.

[quote] 
[quote]And for the record, Indoctrination can be "beaten" in a sense. Saren and The Illusive Man both can do so. Though, since they were both completely indoctrinated, it ended in their suicide. Also, the Feros Colonists, Shiala and The Rachni have resisted Indoctrination for years, due to the helpful influences of a hive mind.[/quote]
I wouldn't consider resisting long enough to kill yourself or being mildly indoctrinated realizing it long enough to kill yourself beating indoctrination. Their suicides are in actuallyity an admission of their defeat. A triumph over the Reapers themselves? Maybe, but not a triumph over indoctrination. 

[/quote]

They denied the Reapers their agents, it is a victory. A Phyrric one, but a victory for each individual nonetheless.

[quote]
Shiala didn't beat indoctrination. The Thorian's involvement supplanted one form of control for another. Then it died leaving her free. The Rachni Queen doesn't resist it. She seems magically immune. Which doesn't make any sense and comes of as handwaving to explain why the rachni can be trusted. They never really explain how this queen is immune, while the ones in the past weren't. [/quote]

Shiala has resisted indoctrination with the aide of the Feros colonists, who have become a hive mind through the Thorian Spores, The Rachni Queen explicitly mentions hearing the influence of the machines at the edge of her mind, but her children allow her to spread the load among many minds. Likely, the other queens lacked the prior knowledge of past events that this one does. They did not understand the danger indoctrination presented.

[Arian Dynas]

Also, I am extremely pissed I could not find the most recent edition of my Indoctrination stages list anywhere on the BSN, nor could I remember a keyword capable of helping me to find it.

It REALLY pisses me off for some reason.