80611 réponses à ce sujet

[TheConstantOne]

The Twilight God wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...
The majority of this argument is based off the fact that the Crucible Chamber and the Beam Shuffle (the area directly in front of the beam) are remarkably similar to one another in appearance and layout. Instead of grasping a actual Crucible Control panel, arcing with electricity, Shepard could be grabbing a pair of downed wires. Instead of diving into a Synthesis-Beam, Shepard could be throwing himself at the Reaper Beam. Instead of firing at some Synthetic-Destroying Tube, Shepard could just as easily be shooting at some piece of Reaper equipment.

What is your explaination for events that transpire after Shepard's incineration in the Control and Synthesis endings? What are your thoughts on the Refusal?
 

Hey Twilight, Arian. I'd just like to chime in and offer my opinion on this question. 

I have a more abstract view of the Catalyst chamber, in that Shepard is still unconscious by the control panel in the Citadel and the chamber is a mental construction while Shepard battles for his/her mind against the force of indoctrination (the Star Kid.)  The scenes that you see upon making a choice are Shepard's beliefs of what will transpire as a consequence of the final decision just before waking up.

Each of the indoctrinating endings is a brainwashed version of something that the Reapers are actually doing.  In elaboration:

Control: Shepard believes that peace and order throughout the galaxy will be obtained by using the Reapers.  However, acheving peace and order is precisely the Catalyst's stated goal.  In Control, Shepard literally becomes nothing more than what he/she was fighting against: agents of the Reapers.  I don't actually think that Shepard becomes a Reaper here, as he/she speaks as a distinct identity separate from the many minds that even individual Reapers seem to acknowledge they have.  Rather, Shepard becomes a puppet of the Reapers believing that the harvest that transpires is necessary to "obtain peace."

Synthesis: Shepard actually melts down his/her genetic material and becomes the driving component of a Reaper.  I suggest this because synthesis leads to Shepard's identity being lost (disintegrated a la beam) and "merging" with many other minds.  A new single whole is created, this whole being a new Reaper.  This point of view is further stengthened by the ideas of absolute unity suggested among the many in the epilogue scenes that follow.

Destroy: Sheaprd's resolve means that the current level of indoctrination is still not sufficient to stop him/her.  The Crucible control panel might very well be activated in this case.

The key to my point of view is that the Shepard we control in the Catalyst chamber represents Shepard's identity.  Choosing to preserve your identity but adopt the Reapers methods and goals makes Shepard an indoctrinated agent.  Choosing to destroy your identity to meld with other life represents becoming a Reaper.

In Refuse, Shepard can't commit his/her identity towards any choice, indoctrinated or using every last ounce of your identity to fight the Reapers' influences. The result of this noncommital attitude leads to the death of Shepard's mind and, consequently, of his/her body.

In summary, indoctrinating suggestions can be resisted.  What is happening in the Catalyst chamber is Shepard's identity being presented with very appealing lies about Reaper objectives.  If Shepard chooses Destroy, indoctrinating effects haven't been cleansed from his/her mind per se.  It merely suggests that the Reapers' current indoctrinating influence is still not sufficient to sway Shepard's beliefs

[BlazingZephyr]

What a pleasant surprise: I come back to the IT thread to see non-ITers NOT criticizing or chastising anybody.

Faith in mankind +1

That is all.

[Rosewind]

BlazingZephyr wrote...

What a pleasant surprise: I come back to the IT thread to see non-ITers NOT criticizing or chastising anybody.

Faith in mankind +1

That is all.

I know right I was shocked my self

[Gwyphon]

Makes me think anything is possible. Maybe even synthesis!

On another note, is there some way to create a bookmark that always takes me to the newest page of this thread? My life just isn't efficient enough.

Modifié par Gwyphon, 11 août 2012 - 06:57 .

[Rosewind]

Gwyphon wrote...

Makes me think anything is possible. Maybe even synthesis!

On another note, is there some way to create a bookmark that always takes me to the newest page of this thread? My life just isn't efficient enough.

I just go through my profile screen

[BlazingZephyr]

Gwyphon wrote...

Makes me think anything is possible. Maybe even synthesis!

On another note, is there some way to create a bookmark that always takes me to the newest page of this thread? My life just isn't efficient enough.

Just bookmark any IT page, then click on the last page. It's only one button click more.

[Chriz Tah Fah]

 So remember how Otter said that Harbinger's "eyes" can be seen throughout the ending sequence as if he was watching you?

RIGHT as the Catalyst starts talking about himself the camera changes. It changes to the angle looking DIRECTLY and what would be Harbinger. Harbinger is "talking" about himself here, the camera angle shows this.

Edit: The text is hard to read but it says this "Child: I was created to bring balance, to be the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics."

Modifié par Chriz Tah Fah, 11 août 2012 - 07:21 .

[BlazingZephyr]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

 So remember how Otter said that Harbinger's "eyes" can be seen throughout the ending sequence as if he was watching you?

RIGHT as the Catalyst starts talking about himself the camera changes. It changes to the angle looking DIRECTLY and what would be Harbinger. Harbinger is "talking" about himself here, the camera angle shows this.

Not seeing anything, please clarify (with slideshow DLC, if possible).

Modifié par BlazingZephyr, 11 août 2012 - 07:21 .

[Chriz Tah Fah]

BlazingZephyr wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

 So remember how Otter said that Harbinger's "eyes" can be seen throughout the ending sequence as if he was watching you?

RIGHT as the Catalyst starts talking about himself the camera changes. It changes to the angle looking DIRECTLY and what would be Harbinger. Harbinger is "talking" about himself here, the camera angle shows this.

Not seeing anything, please clarify (with slideshow DLC, if possible).

In the top right corner of every area during the ending sequence there is a yellow/orange light that is a similar color to Harbinger's eyes. And guess where Harbinger is when he shoots you? The top right corner of your screen! This orange glow (which could not be produced by earth yet it is still there) is in the top right of the screen and is supposed to be Harbinger watching Shepard. It would then not be a coincidence that right as the Catalyst (Harbinger) starts talking about himself you would then look DIRECTLY at Harbinger. Harbinger becomes interchangable with starbrat through this and it supports IT by suggesting the Catalyst is actually a reaper and would have biased ideals.

Edit: ok, it is 3:30 in the morning and I am really tired. I may have to repost this tomorrow because it is unlikely anyone is on or is awake enough to talk about this. See you guys tomorrow!

Edit again before I go: There is no reason that the angle of the camera should be that low seeing that Shepard is MUCH taller than the starbrat. The camera is level with the starbrat when it has no reason to be. I'm too tired to watch this again but if the camera angle means anything it is Harbinger subtly conveying the fact that he is "higher" than Shepard.

Modifié par Chriz Tah Fah, 11 août 2012 - 07:31 .

[Rosewind]

Looks like he reading a book to me ....

[Leonia]

Strange question but why not.. has anyone ever played all three pre-EC endings on top of one another, that is overlayed with transparencies? I doubt they'd hide anything like that but you never know with those RGB moments.

And staring at that picture of the Catalyst makes me think Harbinger is in the middle of the screen not on the right, the orange glow is certainly odd because it shouldn't be there, regardless of Sol's position the atmosphere wouldn't look like that from space.

[CoolioThane]

Paxx the Olympic Park is phenomenal! Just got back from two days and it was a blast! Have fun!

[MegumiAzusa]

TSA_383 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
Essays? Wanna swap?  I'm really struggling with this stuff right now:
http://en.wikipedia....tokes_equations
http://en.wikipedia..../Potential_flow 
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Quaternion 

Quaternions are actually quite easy once you got the hang of them ^^

I hope you're right - using them to look at flow at the end of a helicopter blade. It is just insane.

One transformation from the earth axis to the helicopter body axis.
Then another one to transform to the propeller shaft.
Then another one to transform to the blade itself.
Then doing some fairly easy finite wing theory (despite its complete unsuitability to the problem, **** paper maths, really...) to calculate some upwash angles relative to the blade.....

Then transforming it all back to earth-relative axes.

And I have to do that under exam conditions next week.
FML.

Essays sound lovely at this point 

Edit: SO ABOUT THEM REAPERS (yes this was on topic all along, maybe... maybe the reapers can be killed by just rolling them 90 degrees because the AI programming uses euler rotations and suffers gimble lock)

Oh my god, I just made a thread about a game interpretation nerdier...

Are you serious about the euler rotations? Though the AI shouldn't need more than 2 axis so it's fine under usual circumstances...

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Sounds suspiciously like my video

Wow, never saw that before. Where does all that come from?

Aren't some of the shorter TIM lines just the lines when picking the standard options and not the colored ones?

[jojon2se]

Staring long and hard at that picture, I could imagine four white discs in a harbinger's-eyes configuration, with the medial two lining up with those of starchild's, as well as a triangular shape in the "smoke" above, but it does take quite a bit of deliberate imagination... :7

[Outlawstar15a2]

To answer the spirit of this thread. Yes the ending had to be a hallucination. In the very end Shepard is seen waking up in a pile of concrete there is no concrete on the Citadel it is made of unknown alien metals and the concrete is very similar to the kind seen in London. Also the light illuminating Shepard is very similar to the light given off by the Conduit. There is no way Shepard made his way there from the Starchild's chamber. He'd have to survive the explosion of a massive space station (many times larger and more powerful then the Normandy SR-1 explosion), exposure to vaccum, and then atmospheric re-entry and the massive G-Forces tearing at him as he plummets to the ground at high velocity. Not to mention the massive concussive force as he smashes into the ground. Shepard's good but he's not superman. He's not impervious to physical harm.

[MegumiAzusa]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

BlazingZephyr wrote...

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

 So remember how Otter said that Harbinger's "eyes" can be seen throughout the ending sequence as if he was watching you?

RIGHT as the Catalyst starts talking about himself the camera changes. It changes to the angle looking DIRECTLY and what would be Harbinger. Harbinger is "talking" about himself here, the camera angle shows this.

Not seeing anything, please clarify (with slideshow DLC, if possible).

In the top right corner of every area during the ending sequence there is a yellow/orange light that is a similar color to Harbinger's eyes. And guess where Harbinger is when he shoots you? The top right corner of your screen! This orange glow (which could not be produced by earth yet it is still there) is in the top right of the screen and is supposed to be Harbinger watching Shepard. It would then not be a coincidence that right as the Catalyst (Harbinger) starts talking about himself you would then look DIRECTLY at Harbinger. Harbinger becomes interchangable with starbrat through this and it supports IT by suggesting the Catalyst is actually a reaper and would have biased ideals.

Edit: ok, it is 3:30 in the morning and I am really tired. I may have to repost this tomorrow because it is unlikely anyone is on or is awake enough to talk about this. See you guys tomorrow!

Edit again before I go: There is no reason that the angle of the camera should be that low seeing that Shepard is MUCH taller than the starbrat. The camera is level with the starbrat when it has no reason to be. I'm too tired to watch this again but if the camera angle means anything it is Harbinger subtly conveying the fact that he is "higher" than Shepard.

I can't see any orange glow
It's not Harbinger as Harbinger doesn't have the front most tentacle.

btw it's interesting how the camera when it's focusing on the Guardian is slowly zooming in all the time. Like being drawn in.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 11 août 2012 - 09:29 .

[jojon2se]

Arian Dynas wrote...
...
After that? It's Shepard's mind extrapolating from there, either images he uses to comfort himself into believing he did the right thing, comforting himself with the idea that the galaxy is saved, that all his friends and compatriots survived and went on to live happy, long contented lives without him. It explains why Synthesis is so sacharrine, as well as the Gilligan's Planet bit, which spawned from several conversations throughout the game, indicating from several characters they would like the idea of just going to a secluded beach planet somewhere.
...

I like to think it goes on after the that moment of soothing imagining what the future is going to be like, and liken the continuation of Shepard a bit to a section of Bioshock2, where you "posses" one of the game's "little sister" characters; children who have, amongst other things, been subjected to severe mental conditioning.

So for a while you see the game world through their eyes - a silky, rosy, beautiful place, populated with elegant people attending an eternal ball and here and there an angel resting on the floor.

Now and then, though, there is a brief flash of the true state of events: A city in ruins; Dark, damp, cold, dirty, blood-spattered, with hideously deformed characters murdering eachother and littered with corpses that these little sisters (or "gatherers") harvest for their reserve of the ridicolously malleable cell matter that is central to the setting.


I beg to disagree with your dismissal of the refusal option, by the way.

[MegumiAzusa]

jojon2se wrote...

I beg to disagree with your dismissal of the refusal option, by the way.

The save files indicate in destroy EDI dies and in refuse everyone dies.

[Jere85]

Hows it going guys? Have they decided a date on leviathan yet?

[estebanus]

Hello again. I finally got rid of my headache.

I see that TJBartlemus has found some catalyst lines from some place. Where is it from? And what else has been discovered?

[DoomsdayDevice]

TheConstantOne wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...
The majority of this argument is based off the fact that the Crucible Chamber and the Beam Shuffle (the area directly in front of the beam) are remarkably similar to one another in appearance and layout. Instead of grasping a actual Crucible Control panel, arcing with electricity, Shepard could be grabbing a pair of downed wires. Instead of diving into a Synthesis-Beam, Shepard could be throwing himself at the Reaper Beam. Instead of firing at some Synthetic-Destroying Tube, Shepard could just as easily be shooting at some piece of Reaper equipment.

What is your explaination for events that transpire after Shepard's incineration in the Control and Synthesis endings? What are your thoughts on the Refusal?
 

Hey Twilight, Arian. I'd just like to chime in and offer my opinion on this question. 

I have a more abstract view of the Catalyst chamber, in that Shepard is still unconscious by the control panel in the Citadel and the chamber is a mental construction while Shepard battles for his/her mind against the force of indoctrination (the Star Kid.)  The scenes that you see upon making a choice are Shepard's beliefs of what will transpire as a consequence of the final decision just before waking up.

Each of the indoctrinating endings is a brainwashed version of something that the Reapers are actually doing.  In elaboration:

Control: Shepard believes that peace and order throughout the galaxy will be obtained by using the Reapers.  However, acheving peace and order is precisely the Catalyst's stated goal.  In Control, Shepard literally becomes nothing more than what he/she was fighting against: agents of the Reapers.  I don't actually think that Shepard becomes a Reaper here, as he/she speaks as a distinct identity separate from the many minds that even individual Reapers seem to acknowledge they have.  Rather, Shepard becomes a puppet of the Reapers believing that the harvest that transpires is necessary to "obtain peace."

Synthesis: Shepard actually melts down his/her genetic material and becomes the driving component of a Reaper.  I suggest this because synthesis leads to Shepard's identity being lost (disintegrated a la beam) and "merging" with many other minds.  A new single whole is created, this whole being a new Reaper.  This point of view is further stengthened by the ideas of absolute unity suggested among the many in the epilogue scenes that follow.

Destroy: Sheaprd's resolve means that the current level of indoctrination is still not sufficient to stop him/her.  The Crucible control panel might very well be activated in this case.

The key to my point of view is that the Shepard we control in the Catalyst chamber represents Shepard's identity.  Choosing to preserve your identity but adopt the Reapers methods and goals makes Shepard an indoctrinated agent.  Choosing to destroy your identity to meld with other life represents becoming a Reaper.

In Refuse, Shepard can't commit his/her identity towards any choice, indoctrinated or using every last ounce of your identity to fight the Reapers' influences. The result of this noncommital attitude leads to the death of Shepard's mind and, consequently, of his/her body.

In summary, indoctrinating suggestions can be resisted.  What is happening in the Catalyst chamber is Shepard's identity being presented with very appealing lies about Reaper objectives.  If Shepard chooses Destroy, indoctrinating effects haven't been cleansed from his/her mind per se.  It merely suggests that the Reapers' current indoctrinating influence is still not sufficient to sway Shepard's beliefs

This is exactly my stance. What is important though, is that Shepard stops fighting in Control/Synthesis (throws away gun), and even though he's defiant in Reject, he basically gives up on his objective, he doesn't even want to destroy the Reapers any more.

[TSA_383]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
Essays? Wanna swap?  I'm really struggling with this stuff right now:
http://en.wikipedia....tokes_equations
http://en.wikipedia..../Potential_flow 
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Quaternion 

Quaternions are actually quite easy once you got the hang of them ^^

I hope you're right - using them to look at flow at the end of a helicopter blade. It is just insane.

One transformation from the earth axis to the helicopter body axis.
Then another one to transform to the propeller shaft.
Then another one to transform to the blade itself.
Then doing some fairly easy finite wing theory (despite its complete unsuitability to the problem, **** paper maths, really...) to calculate some upwash angles relative to the blade.....

Then transforming it all back to earth-relative axes.

And I have to do that under exam conditions next week.
FML.

Essays sound lovely at this point 

Edit: SO ABOUT THEM REAPERS (yes this was on topic all along, maybe... maybe the reapers can be killed by just rolling them 90 degrees because the AI programming uses euler rotations and suffers gimble lock)

Oh my god, I just made a thread about a game interpretation nerdier...

Are you serious about the euler rotations? Though the AI shouldn't need more than 2 axis so it's fine under usual circumstances...

Well yeah I was joking - I highly doubt you'll defeat the reapers by turning them all sideways 

estebanus wrote...

Hello again. I finally got rid of my headache. 

I see that TJBartlemus has found some catalyst lines from some place. Where is it from? And what else has been discovered?

http://social.biowar.../index/13557262  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

[jojon2se]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

jojon2se wrote...

I beg to disagree with your dismissal of the refusal option, by the way.

The save files indicate in destroy EDI dies and in refuse everyone dies.

Both of which are ultimately untrue (or rather: "irrelevant") in any Shepard-never-left-Earth flavoured indoctrination scenario.

Incidently; In the Stuff-did-happen-but-we-saw-it-through-Harby's-beer-goggles varieties... There was something somebody said a few pages back... I don't know whether that was what the writer intended; But that beam we see coming out of the Crucible, until a choice is made -- if we assume for the time being that the Crucible did dock and the junction point looks pretty much the way it is shown; I wonder, then, whether it would be reasonable to speculate that that beam is not actually directly generated by the Crucible, but is rather the London Conduit - the Reapers' construct, which is either passed through directly, or collected at the back of the Crucible, conducted (with or without transformation) to the front and reemitted...