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[Rosewind]

munnellyladt wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I still don't understand how "it was all a dream!" story telling is so appealing to so many people.

They aren't with many, my hanar brother. They're just a very few hardcore stubborn believers. 

I've got to give it to them. I admire their dedication to their theory.

I didn't think all hanar were so stuborn,you are usually so polite...except for that badass blasto

Thats not Blasto thats the preacher Hannar in ME1

What?

Never mind I did not read up before posting lol thought u talking about Hanar's avartar.

[The Heretic of Time]

munnellyladt wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

plfranke wrote...

But from a storytelling perspective hallucinations and dreams are pretty similar. Hanar has it right.

Similar doesnt necessarily mean exactly the same. He is not right.

I agree,if you are dreaming you are asleep and not moving,in an hallucination you are awake and moving but are  seeing things that are not there,like a mirrage in a desert,if you are dehydrated enough you will halucinate.

So you're saying that everything in the ME3 ending does really happen, that Shepard is just tripping balls, but at the same time really is entering the Citadel and making the Crucible decision?

Than I have to ask: What's the point of the Indoctrination Theory? That Shepard is tripping balls during the last part of the game is pretty much a given, you don't need to believe in the IT to accept that.

[agmrpink]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


Well I know the difference between a dream and a hallicunation, that's not my point. That's not what I asked.

What I asked is: What is the difference between "it was all just a dream" or "it was all just a hallucination"? Aren't both exactly the same thing from a story-writing perspective?

Both do exactly the same thing: Hit the reset button and wave away the ending we have now as something that never really happened.

The "it was all a dream" device can be perceived as contrived and pointless in many cases, and I personally hate it in most situations. But there are instances where context and timing greatly affect a plot device's impact.

i.e.:
Dallas? Awful.
Jakob's Ladder? Incredible.

In the case of ME3, it's not so much a *removes the curtain from the player* "Gotcha!", but instead relates thematically to the story at hand. Indoctrination has been plaguing everyone else in the galaxy, so why can't Shepard be a victim? In this case (assuming IT is true), we are not watching the device unfold in a third party manner. Shepard/ the player play an active role in the way it plays out in the decision chamber.

At least, that's why I can appreciate this form of storytelling.

Modifié par agmrpink, 14 août 2012 - 01:14 .

[munnellyladt]

Rosewind wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I still don't understand how "it was all a dream!" story telling is so appealing to so many people.

They aren't with many, my hanar brother. They're just a very few hardcore stubborn believers. 

I've got to give it to them. I admire their dedication to their theory.

I didn't think all hanar were so stuborn,you are usually so polite...except for that badass blasto

Thats not Blasto thats the preacher Hannar in ME1

What?

Never mind I did not read up before posting lol thought u talking about Hanar's avartar.

Oh I remember him,he was as stubborn as these two.

[munnellyladt]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

plfranke wrote...

But from a storytelling perspective hallucinations and dreams are pretty similar. Hanar has it right.

Similar doesnt necessarily mean exactly the same. He is not right.

I agree,if you are dreaming you are asleep and not moving,in an hallucination you are awake and moving but are  seeing things that are not there,like a mirrage in a desert,if you are dehydrated enough you will halucinate.

So you're saying that everything in the ME3 ending does really happen, that Shepard is just tripping balls, but at the same time really is entering the Citadel and making the Crucible decision?

Than I have to ask: What's the point of the Indoctrination Theory? That Shepard is tripping balls during the last part of the game is pretty much a given, you don't need to believe in the IT to accept that.

This is opinion not fact and for the record how would you feel after getting hit by a massive laser,maybe in shepards weakend body and mind harbinger got him to imagine some things.

Modifié par munnellyladt, 14 août 2012 - 01:21 .

[The Heretic of Time]

munnellyladt wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

plfranke wrote...

But from a storytelling perspective hallucinations and dreams are pretty similar. Hanar has it right.

Similar doesnt necessarily mean exactly the same. He is not right.

I agree,if you are dreaming you are asleep and not moving,in an hallucination you are awake and moving but are  seeing things that are not there,like a mirrage in a desert,if you are dehydrated enough you will halucinate.

So you're saying that everything in the ME3 ending does really happen, that Shepard is just tripping balls, but at the same time really is entering the Citadel and making the Crucible decision?

Than I have to ask: What's the point of the Indoctrination Theory? That Shepard is tripping balls during the last part of the game is pretty much a given, you don't need to believe in the IT to accept that.

This is opinion not fact and for the record how would you feel after getting hit by a massive laser,maybe in shepards weakend body and mind got him to imagine some things.

Sure sure, that's not the point though. My question is:

Isn't the IT supposed to be a plot device that combines "all just a dream" with a "reset button" that allows BioWare to add a new, "true" ending to the game?

I always understood that the IT was all about the idea that what happened after the beam, never really happened in reality. It only happens in Shepard's brains while he's lying on the ground. After succesfully beating indoctrination, Shepard would wake up in front of the beam again, and "round 2" will start, or so to speak.

If my interpretation of the IT is correct, than the IT indeed is "all just a dream" and not an actual hallucination.

[munnellyladt]

heritic,this is just theororizing here and you may have got this alot but;
whats your problem with IT?

Modifié par munnellyladt, 14 août 2012 - 01:23 .

[The Heretic of Time]

munnellyladt wrote...

heritic,this is just theororizing here and you may have got this alot but;
whats your problem with IT.

My problem with IT is not important now. What is important is that I, at this point, no longer understand IT.

If Shepard is hallucinating during the ending, than the endings are real and really did happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: What's the difference between the IT and the litteral interpretation of the endings?

If Shepard is dreaming the ending, than the endings are just a dream and didn't really happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: Why do you insist the ending is a hallucination while it actually is a dream?


So what is it?

[Lokanaiya]

Usually, when writers use the "It was all just a dream!" excuse, it's exclusively to erase what just happened and it never has any affect on anything else afterwards. Basically, it's the writer's version of "Let's never speak of this again." In IT, this is definitely not the case, because it would have a HUGE effect on the fate on the galaxy, especially if you believe the last part was an overlay and Shepard shot something in real life. But even if you don't, it still has an effect on your Shepard and what he will do and how he will act afterwards. Because Shepard's an icon and he has so much influence, if he turns traitor, the galaxy's pretty much done for.

[TSA_383]

Been speaking to Chriz - We've worked out how a lot of the stuff in the ending relates I think, even explaining the strange defibrillator noise on the citadel and Harbinger's anger at the "refuse" option in comparison to destroy.

But I'm not posting it all in here until the troll war calms down a bit.

[CoolioThane]

Lol. It's pretty pathetic I have to say.

[TJBartlemus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Sure sure, that's not the point though. My question is:

Isn't the IT supposed to be a plot device that combines "all just a dream" with a "reset button" that allows BioWare to add a new, "true" ending to the game?

I always understood that the IT was all about the idea that what happened after the beam, never really happened in reality. It only happens in Shepard's brains while he's lying on the ground. After succesfully beating indoctrination, Shepard would wake up in front of the beam again, and "round 2" will start, or so to speak.

If my interpretation of the IT is correct, than the IT indeed is "all just a dream" and not an actual hallucination.

That was my interpretation as well. That's why I made the WNT. Now if IT really is what WNT is then I am sorely confused. If it really is like the WNT why didn't someone tell me?  It would also make all my work on the WNT useless.  So tell me now. Was 2 - 3 months of hard work wasted in just making another perspective of IT?

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 14 août 2012 - 01:31 .

[masster blaster]

Look Hanar. When Shepard get's hit he/she is dreaming, but once Shepard wakes up like the Ctatlyst says wake yp, but Shepard is already awake, so this is were walking nightmer, and IT merge.

You see the Conduit run is an over lay fo the Catalyst chambers. In other words Shepard is awake if Shepard picks synthesis, Shepard becomes like what happence when the Turians from Evolution touch the Reaper artifact, and become the Reapers slave.

If Shepard picks Control, Shepard my become a Reaper, but before Shepard becomes a Reaper, he/she becomes an agent for the Reapers, but has some Control over his/her body, and thoughts.

Destroy Shepard is flown back words, and lands in the rubble where we see Shepard in the breath scene. Now that's my thought on what's happening, but it's all but speculations.

[munnellyladt]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

heritic,this is just theororizing here and you may have got this alot but;
whats your problem with IT.

My problem with IT is not important now. What is important is that I, at this point, no longer understand IT.

If Shepard is hallucinating during the ending, than the endings are real and really did happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: What's the difference between the IT and the litteral interpretation of the endings?

If Shepard is dreaming the ending, than the endings are just a dream and didn't really happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: Why do you insist the ending is a hallucination while it actually is a dream?


So what is it?

Well these are all just theories so you cannot get a straight answer from anyone except bioware.Nobody can just stick with one theory and not see anybody else's.The fact of the matter is there are things that don't make sense in the literal interpretation of the game that cannot be just tagged as "lazy writting".

Modifié par munnellyladt, 14 août 2012 - 01:34 .

[Lokanaiya]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Sure sure, that's not the point though. My question is:

Isn't the IT supposed to be a plot device that combines "all just a dream" with a "reset button" that allows BioWare to add a new, "true" ending to the game?

I always understood that the IT was all about the idea that what happened after the beam, never really happened in reality. It only happens in Shepard's brains while he's lying on the ground. After succesfully beating indoctrination, Shepard would wake up in front of the beam again, and "round 2" will start, or so to speak.

If my interpretation of the IT is correct, than the IT indeed is "all just a dream" and not an actual hallucination.

That was my interpretation as well. That's why I made the WNT. Now if IT really is what WNT is then I am sorely confused. If it really is like the WNT why didn't someone tell me?  It would also make all my work on the WNT useless.  So tell me now. Was 2 - 3 months of hard work wasted in just making another perspective of IT?

Some people (like myself) believe that either everything after Harbinger's laser is a dream or everything after the MAKO crash, which includes the beam run, is a dream.

[ThisOneIsPunny]

TSA_383 wrote...

Been speaking to Chriz - We've worked out how a lot of the stuff in the ending relates I think, even explaining the strange defibrillator noise on the citadel and Harbinger's anger at the "refuse" option in comparison to destroy.

But I'm not posting it all in here until the troll war calms down a bit.

Cruelty, thy name is TSA 

I guess I'll lurk patiently for now.

[The Heretic of Time]

munnellyladt wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

heritic,this is just theororizing here and you may have got this alot but;
whats your problem with IT.

My problem with IT is not important now. What is important is that I, at this point, no longer understand IT.

If Shepard is hallucinating during the ending, than the endings are real and really did happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: What's the difference between the IT and the litteral interpretation of the endings?

If Shepard is dreaming the ending, than the endings are just a dream and didn't really happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: Why do you insist the ending is a hallucination while it actually is a dream?


So what is it?

Well these are all just theories so you cannot get a straight answer from anyone except bioware.Nobody can just stick with one theory and not see anybody else's.The fact of the matter is there are things that don't make sense in the literal interpretation of the game that cannot be just tagged as "lazy writting".

You still don't get my issue here. I don't ask whether the IT is true or not (nobody knows), I ask what the IT represents.


What does the IT represent?

1. The idea that the endings are just a dream and never really happened, only in Shepard head?

2. Or the idea that the endings are a hallucination but actually did really happen, just that Shepard's perception was distorted because he was hallucinating?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 août 2012 - 01:39 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Lokanaiya wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Sure sure, that's not the point though. My question is:

Isn't the IT supposed to be a plot device that combines "all just a dream" with a "reset button" that allows BioWare to add a new, "true" ending to the game?

I always understood that the IT was all about the idea that what happened after the beam, never really happened in reality. It only happens in Shepard's brains while he's lying on the ground. After succesfully beating indoctrination, Shepard would wake up in front of the beam again, and "round 2" will start, or so to speak.

If my interpretation of the IT is correct, than the IT indeed is "all just a dream" and not an actual hallucination.

That was my interpretation as well. That's why I made the WNT. Now if IT really is what WNT is then I am sorely confused. If it really is like the WNT why didn't someone tell me?  It would also make all my work on the WNT useless.  So tell me now. Was 2 - 3 months of hard work wasted in just making another perspective of IT?

Some people (like myself) believe that either everything after Harbinger's laser is a dream or everything after the MAKO crash, which includes the beam run, is a dream.

Thank you for a straight answer. Thank you for clearing that up.


And TSA, you really need to learn the difference between trolling and simply having a discussion. This time I'm actually not trolling.

[Kulbelbolka]

I think I noticed some interesting detail.

Let's go back to Cronos Station after you beat Kai Leng. This video show us chat between Shepard and The Illusive Man. Look at TIM's face - there is no sign of reaper implants at all.

I'm not sure how many time will pass between this moment and their future meeting, but the context tells me it's something about 24 hours (before attacking Cronos Station Hackett tells us that if we start attack it will be point of no-return and Reapers will know about it pretty soon).

So before Catalyst we will see TIM face-to-face at first time in series and in that moment we see him half-husked.

My question: what is it - some problems with time feeling in game or meaningful detail?

[masster blaster]

So you were trolling us in the past, but now you are not trolling?

[ZerebusPrime]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


What does the IT represent?

1. The idea that the endings are just a dream and never really happened, only in Shepard head?

2. Or the idea that the endings are a hallucination but actually did really happen, just that Shepard's perception was distorted because he was hallucinating?

My understanding is that those are two extremes within the existing theory.  In other words, IT could be either one: IT classic or IT Lite.

[TJBartlemus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

You still don't get my issue here. I don't ask whether the IT is true or not (nobody knows), I ask what the IT represents.


What does the IT represent?

1. The idea that the endings are just a dream and never really happened, only in Shepard head?

2. Or the idea that the endings are a hallucination but actually did really happen, just that Shepard's perception was distorted because he was hallucinating?

I personally want this question answered. I have interest in the result. Byne, as creator of the theory, if you are still here could you answer this please? Also a clear answer would be nice. Not a "uh...well both are...this one is this blah blah blah" answer. A simple pick one or the other.

[The Heretic of Time]

masster blaster wrote...

So you were trolling us in the past, but now you are not trolling?

Sometimes I'm teasing/trolling, sometimes I'm just discussing. I think the difference should be pretty clear. If not, I'll give you a hint next time i'm teasing (trolling) y'all.

[CoolioThane]

A mixture

[DoomsdayDevice]

LT123 wrote...

I read on a different site where someone who was digging through the EC files said the EC added a lot of new dead squadmate whispers in the nightmares. Anybody noticed a difference?

Where do you find those files to dig through them? Program Files?

Edit: Here's the link to that site.

No, am replaying currently, had two dreams so far and only heard Ashley and Mordin. Then again, those are the only ones who died for me. Legion dies later but I haven't been to Rannoch yet.