80611 réponses à ce sujet

[EpyonX3]

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Oh and Byne, what's the difference between "all just a dream" and "all just an halicunation"? Isn't that effectively the same thing?

Generally a hallucination happens when one is awake, and seems very real, whereas a dream is when you're sleeping, and may or may not seem real.

Like I said earlier, I'm not exactly great at explaining things.

I could just copy/paste from wikipedia, but I'm sure if you wanted to read stuff from wikipedia, you'd read wikipedia.

So wait? Shepard would then get up in london and walk around and think he's on the Citadel activating the Crucible? Or is he laying in the rubble and all of this is happening in his head while he's knocked out?

[TJBartlemus]

Kulbelbolka wrote...

I think I noticed some interesting detail.

Let's go back to Cronos Station after you beat Kai Leng. This video show us chat between Shepard and The Illusive Man. Look at TIM's face - there is no sign of reaper implants at all.

I'm not sure how many time will pass between this moment and their future meeting, but the context tells me it's something about 24 hours (before attacking Cronos Station Hackett tells us that if we start attack it will be point of no-return and Reapers will know about it pretty soon).

So before Catalyst we will see TIM face-to-face at first time in series and in that moment we see him half-husked.

My question: what is it - some problems with time feeling in game or meaningful detail?

It's been shown in the game that the projection he is using is altering his appearance. So during the convo with TIM at Thessia it is entirely possible he could be in transition but we can't see it cause the projection auto-corrects his appearance to what we know from ME2.

[byne]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

You still don't get my issue here. I don't ask whether the IT is true or not (nobody knows), I ask what the IT represents.


What does the IT represent?

1. The idea that the endings are just a dream and never really happened, only in Shepard head?

2. Or the idea that the endings are a hallucination but actually did really happen, just that Shepard's perception was distorted because he was hallucinating?

I personally want this question answered. I have interest in the result. Byne, as creator of the theory, if you are still here could you answer this please? Also a clear answer would be nice. Not a "uh...well both are...this one is this blah blah blah" answer. A simple pick one or the other.

The theory has always said #1, has it not?

I suppose whether you want to call it a dream or a hallucination is just semantics.

What exactly caused people to suddenly get confused? It hasnt changed for nearly 5000 pages.

I personally find it implausible that the real world could be affected by the dream/hallucination/whateveryouwannacallit.

You beat indoctrination, climb out of the rubble, and kick some Reaper ass.

[ZerebusPrime]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

You still don't get my issue here. I don't ask whether the IT is true or not (nobody knows), I ask what the IT represents.


What does the IT represent?

1. The idea that the endings are just a dream and never really happened, only in Shepard head?

2. Or the idea that the endings are a hallucination but actually did really happen, just that Shepard's perception was distorted because he was hallucinating?

I personally want this question answered. I have interest in the result. Byne, as creator of the theory, if you are still here could you answer this please? Also a clear answer would be nice. Not a "uh...well both are...this one is this blah blah blah" answer. A simple pick one or the other.

Byne did not create the IT.

Also, that Shepard is seeing things other than just reality but also doing things in reality was an idea that predates Waking Nightmare Theory (I know this because I posited such a theory months ago and I distinctly recall that I was not the first).

The Indoctrination Theory is a generalized conclusion based upon a body of evidence.  Specific conclusions within that generalized conclusion, such as Waking Nightmare Theory, are refined subtheories within the overall body of work.

[byne]

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Oh and Byne, what's the difference between "all just a dream" and "all just an halicunation"? Isn't that effectively the same thing?

Generally a hallucination happens when one is awake, and seems very real, whereas a dream is when you're sleeping, and may or may not seem real.

Like I said earlier, I'm not exactly great at explaining things.

I could just copy/paste from wikipedia, but I'm sure if you wanted to read stuff from wikipedia, you'd read wikipedia.

So wait? Shepard would then get up in london and walk around and think he's on the Citadel activating the Crucible? Or is he laying in the rubble and all of this is happening in his head while he's knocked out?

The second one. By saying its really happening, I'm saying the whole sequence is really happening inside Shep's head. Its different than dreaming it.

To me at least.

Like I said, I'm not good at explaining things.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

So you were trolling us in the past, but now you are not trolling?

Sometimes I'm teasing/trolling, sometimes I'm just discussing. I think the difference should be pretty clear. If not, I'll give you a hint next time i'm teasing (trolling) y'all.

Discussion is always welcome. Just remember first impressions are important, and you made quite a poor one. But hey, lets forget the past and keep discussion flowing.

[byne]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Byne did not create the IT.

I created the thread that spawned IT, and IT came out of the idea I originally posted. Unless you're going to claim someone else spawned the idea?

[dreamgazer]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Byne did not create the IT.

A form of "IT" has been around since Arrival.

[The Heretic of Time]

byne wrote...

What exactly caused people to suddenly get confused? It hasnt changed for nearly 5000 pages.

Because "it's a hallicunation" implies that the events of the ending really do happen, just that Shepard's view on it is distorted.

'It's a dream" implies that nothing of the ending really happens and that it is entirely dreamed my Shepard who's still lying on the ground in London.

I personally find it implausible that the real world could be affected by the dream/hallucination/whateveryouwannacallit.

Dream. Not hallucination. Because the real world and the "dream world" overlaps when you're hallucinating, meaning that every move you make in the "dream world" also happens in the real world.


So yeah, to prevent confusion, I'd advice to stop saying the IT is a hallucination and instead stick to the fact that the IT is a dream. 

[TJBartlemus]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

You still don't get my issue here. I don't ask whether the IT is true or not (nobody knows), I ask what the IT represents.


What does the IT represent?

1. The idea that the endings are just a dream and never really happened, only in Shepard head?

2. Or the idea that the endings are a hallucination but actually did really happen, just that Shepard's perception was distorted because he was hallucinating?

I personally want this question answered. I have interest in the result. Byne, as creator of the theory, if you are still here could you answer this please? Also a clear answer would be nice. Not a "uh...well both are...this one is this blah blah blah" answer. A simple pick one or the other.

Byne did not create the IT.

Also, that Shepard is seeing things other than just reality but also doing things in reality was an idea that predates Waking Nightmare Theory (I know this because I posited such a theory months ago and I distinctly recall that I was not the first).

The Indoctrination Theory is a generalized conclusion based upon a body of evidence.  Specific conclusions within that generalized conclusion, such as Waking Nightmare Theory, are refined subtheories within the overall body of work.

He didn't? I once thought he didn't, then someone did tell me he did create it and now you are telling me he didn't? Confused I am. 

Regarding the WNT...I originally thought it up and made it as a lead up for the IT version where Shep is dreaming. The events of London are happening but details are put into Sheps perspective by the Reapers in reaction to indoctrination. This is what makes WNT unique.  

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 14 août 2012 - 01:55 .

[LT123]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LT123 wrote...

I read on a different site where someone who was digging through the EC files said the EC added a lot of new dead squadmate whispers in the nightmares. Anybody noticed a difference?

Where do you find those files to dig through them? Program Files?

Edit: Here's the link to that site.

No, am replaying currently, had two dreams so far and only heard Ashley and Mordin. Then again, those are the only ones who died for me. Legion dies later but I haven't been to Rannoch yet.

Did you hear any new whispers from them that you didn't the first time?

[The Heretic of Time]

byne wrote...

The second one. By saying its really happening, I'm saying the whole sequence is really happening inside Shep's head. Its different than dreaming it.

How the hell is that different? A dream is also happening inside your head and a dream most certainly also influences your mind and body.


So it's not really happening, it's just a dream inside Shepards head.

[munnellyladt]

Oh byne I believed you and me had a bet;
As I recall it was 10$ or whatever it is in euros now.

[ZerebusPrime]

byne wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Byne did not create the IT.

I created the thread that spawned IT, and IT came out of the idea I originally posted. Unless you're going to claim someone else spawned the idea?

I frequently visited a thread regarding Shepard's indoctrination in ME2 before ME3 came out, as well as discussions regarding vent boy being in Shepard's head based solely on demo footage.  I have also talked to enough to people who came to the IT conclusion without seeing anything online.  I realize you created the thread into which everyone poured their ideas into here on the official forums and for that I thank you, but this is a beast with a thousand heads.

[byne]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

byne wrote...

The second one. By saying its really happening, I'm saying the whole sequence is really happening inside Shep's head. Its different than dreaming it.

How the hell is that different? A dream is also happening inside your head and a dream most certainly also influences your mind and body.


So it's not really happening, it's just a dream inside Shepards head.

Well, I'm saying the images are being projected into Shep's head, not being dreamed up entirely by her. So, the images are real in a sense.

[Rosewind]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Been speaking to Chriz - We've worked out how a lot of the stuff in the ending relates I think, even explaining the strange defibrillator noise on the citadel and Harbinger's anger at the "refuse" option in comparison to destroy.

But I'm not posting it all in here until the troll war calms down a bit.

Cruelty, thy name is TSA 

I guess I'll lurk patiently for now.

Yay welcome to the Corner!!! Pull up a chair!

[byne]

munnellyladt wrote...

Oh byne I believed you and me had a bet;
As I recall it was 10$ or whatever it is in euros now.

I remember the amount but what were we betting on? I dont remember.

[ThisOneIsPunny]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
So yeah, to prevent confusion, I'd advice to stop saying the IT is a hallucination and instead stick to the fact that the IT is a dream. 

No.

[The Heretic of Time]

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

byne wrote...

The second one. By saying its really happening, I'm saying the whole sequence is really happening inside Shep's head. Its different than dreaming it.

How the hell is that different? A dream is also happening inside your head and a dream most certainly also influences your mind and body.


So it's not really happening, it's just a dream inside Shepards head.

Well, I'm saying the images are being projected into Shep's head, not being dreamed up entirely by her. So, the images are real in a sense.

So it's an imposed dream. A dream injected into Shepard's mind by Harbinger (or whatever it is that causes the indoc). Is that what you propose with the IT?

[byne]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

byne wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Byne did not create the IT.

I created the thread that spawned IT, and IT came out of the idea I originally posted. Unless you're going to claim someone else spawned the idea?

I frequently visited a thread regarding Shepard's indoctrination in ME2 before ME3 came out, as well as discussions regarding vent boy being in Shepard's head based solely on demo footage.  I have also talked to enough to people who came to the IT conclusion without seeing anything online.  I realize you created the thread into which everyone poured their ideas into here on the official forums and for that I thank you, but this is a beast with a thousand heads.

Oh, ok. I had never even heard any of that stuff, except for the vent boy being fake. Interesting.

Thought you were going to tell me Acayvos or some random dude from BSN started the entire thing, as I've had people tell both.

Anyhow, gonna be afk for a bit. Be back later.

[munnellyladt]

byne wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

Oh byne I believed you and me had a bet;
As I recall it was 10$ or whatever it is in euros now.

I remember the amount but what were we betting on? I dont remember.

You bet that leviathan would come out on the 14th and as i see it,it is now the 14th and still no release date.

[dreamgazer]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

My problem with IT is not important now. What is important is that I, at this point, no longer understand IT.

And you expect people who enjoy discussing this to lay it out for someone who persistently antagonizes them?

The deciding factor is the consequences of each.

"It was all just a dream" doesn't have any, as none of it took place or had any pertinence. Your choices don't matter in the dream; everything, from start to finish, happened in the stretch of a predetermined display of events. Dream ends, nothing happened, slate clean.

The "theory's" assertion completely hinges on consequence, as it's an interactive space where Shepard resists indoctrination. It might be a dream, or a hallucination, or something else, but it's a construct where the "dreamer" actively participates. When whatever that is ends, the choice Shepard made plays a very real part in the actions that follow. But it's not a standard dream.

There's also an interpretation present in all that, where Shepard was merely influenced by indoctrination while in the decision chamber. Concrete answers don't exist, only conjecture and interpretation of the game proper and how indoctrination plays into it. And all that gets funneled into this thread (or at least it did a while back), a bit of a catch-all in dissecting indoctrination present in the game.

[The Heretic of Time]

Thanks for the in-depth explanation dreamgazer. Much appreciated.

And what a fitting nickname you have I might add.

[The Heretic of Time]

Anyway, I'm off again, so now you folks can finally enjoy TSA's most anticipated post that he refused to post earlier because of my "trolling".


Cheers!

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LT123 wrote...

I read on a different site where someone who was digging through the EC files said the EC added a lot of new dead squadmate whispers in the nightmares. Anybody noticed a difference?

Where do you find those files to dig through them? Program Files?

Edit: Here's the link to that site.

No, am replaying currently, had two dreams so far and only heard Ashley and Mordin. Then again, those are the only ones who died for me. Legion dies later but I haven't been to Rannoch yet.

When I last played through the game, I distinctly remember thinking to myself that the third dream, not the first two, sounded like it had extra whispers in it. I don't remember what they were, but I'm pretty sure I hear Tali say something (she was my LI). I don't remember what she said, and I may be remembering incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

@Hanar_Heretic, I'm pretty sure that the IT doesn't have anything set on whether or not it's a dream or a hallucination, but I could be wrong. I think that parts really open for debate and interpretation. But my question is, why does it matter? Whether it was a dream or hallucination is not important to the theory. Either way, the ending, as it happened in the game, did not actually happen that way. Dream or hallucination, that's not really the important thing. Personally I think it was a dream, but someone else could think it was a hallucination, since that's, like I said, up to debate.

Modifié par TheIdiocyWizard2.0, 14 août 2012 - 02:12 .