80611 réponses à ce sujet

[munnellyladt]

Ha, byne's run off because he owes me money.

[Hrothdane]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

heritic,this is just theororizing here and you may have got this alot but;
whats your problem with IT.

My problem with IT is not important now. What is important is that I, at this point, no longer understand IT.

If Shepard is hallucinating during the ending, than the endings are real and really did happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: What's the difference between the IT and the litteral interpretation of the endings?

If Shepard is dreaming the ending, than the endings are just a dream and didn't really happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: Why do you insist the ending is a hallucination while it actually is a dream?


So what is it?

Well these are all just theories so you cannot get a straight answer from anyone except bioware.Nobody can just stick with one theory and not see anybody else's.The fact of the matter is there are things that don't make sense in the literal interpretation of the game that cannot be just tagged as "lazy writting".

You still don't get my issue here. I don't ask whether the IT is true or not (nobody knows), I ask what the IT represents.


What does the IT represent?

1. The idea that the endings are just a dream and never really happened, only in Shepard head?

2. Or the idea that the endings are a hallucination but actually did really happen, just that Shepard's perception was distorted because he was hallucinating?

The general consensus is that IT means nothing after the Harbinger beam physically happened to him/her. The specific interpretation as to whether it was an overlay over reality such as during the end part of Overlord, a straight-up total illusion imposed by the Reapers, or anything in-between. The main point of agreement is that Shepard is in the process of indoctrination and that the finale is a kind of mental allegory or trial for fighting it.

People like you, Heretic_Hanar, like to joke that IT is some kind of religion. In fact, I would say we have more in common with a group of atheists. We don't have some kind of central dogma that we all subscribe to word-for-word. Many of us would probably disagree on any number of individual pieces of evidence or specific interpretations, just like how Ayn Rand and Jean-Paul Sartre (both atheists) would strangle each other if put in a room together for more than five minutes. We discuss things, speculate, review evidence, draw conclusions, and argue. Each of us has an individual reason to be here, so I'm not going to claim that some of us are motivated by wishful thinking, but I know with certainty that I'm here because evidence led me here. I can tell from the conversations here that most of us can say the same.

No idea beyond reproach, and as John Stuart Mill suggested, the free-flow of discourse is necessary to prove the strength of good ideas and disprove weak hypotheses. We need dissent and disagreement, but it must be polite and respectful. If someone cannot be bothered to at least maintain the facade of respect and decency in their arguments and must resort to trolling and flame-baiting, they have proven themself unworthy of legitimate discourse. Consider respect and proper manners the price of admission. I know that is certainly asking a lot on the internet, but it is the right way to do things.

If you wish to provide the role of loyal opposition as you have occasionally done so in the past, I welcome you to do so. Otherwise, kindly remove yourself and let us continue with our "tin-foil hats" in peace.

[ZerebusPrime]

byne wrote...

Oh, ok. I had never even heard any of that stuff, except for the vent boy being fake. Interesting.

Thought you were going to tell me Acayvos or some random dude from BSN started the entire thing, as I've had people tell both.

Naaaaaaaaaaaah.

IIRC, Acayvos, or however you spell his/her/it's name, disavowed creating the theory right there in their youtube video description.

On another topic... if you guys let Heretic Hanar box IT into one specific vision of how the game played out instead of a body of generalized possibilities based off of our collection of solid and semi-solid evidence, then get ready to lose the debate.  The moment we try to impose IT as a single, immutable fact is the moment we go from definitely maybe to dead wrong.  IT is a theory.  It's a theory that can be changed as new evidence arises.  That's it's strength.  

My opinion.

Modifié par ZerebusPrime, 14 août 2012 - 02:13 .

[Iconoclaste]

TheIdiocyWizard2.0 wrote...

... ... ...
@Hanar_Heretic,
I'm pretty sure that the IT doesn't have anything set on whether or not
it's a dream or a hallucination, but I could be wrong. I think that
parts really open for debate and interpretation. But my question is, why
does it matter? Whether it was a dream or hallucination is not
important to the theory.  ... ....

I easily see a difference between an hallucination and a dream. In a "dream", Shepard is lying somewhere, thus the possibility of not being seen by squadmates or surrounding soldiers, or by someone located not too far. He could also be mistaken as a dead buddy, since he's not moving. No hurry to get to him in this instance. But in the hallucination version of IT, since SHepard must be moving, and probably standing and wandering around in some kind of lunatic fashion, this raises some questions regarding the other people not interfering, or even him not getting attacked by any husk, and such, if this is happening at the base of the conduit.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 14 août 2012 - 02:15 .

[masster blaster]

Hanar I think that Shepard is dreaming, with TIM, and Anderson, and when Shepard enters the Citadel.

Then once Shepard get's transported up to the Catalyst chambers, is when Shepard wakes up, but it's an over lap between real life, and dream stage.

When you see the child walking tword Shepard, Shepard is awake, since he/she looks up, and when Shepard puts his/her down, her/his eyes are open.

Now when the Catalyst says " Wake up" Shepard get's up, like a dog.

Now why does Shepard have to wait for the Catalyst to say wake up, and for Shepard to move/ get up.

It's mixed with the walking nightmer/IT.

What you are seeing is an over lay of the Conduit run.

I am not the one that caught on to this, but I can show you the over lay.

Any way Shepard is seeing things in the Reaper consense, like the Geth Consense. Shepard mind is trying to make out familier things that his/her brain can process.

Now here is the thing. If you played Overlord, Shepard activates a control panel, that let's Shepard see an over lay of the digatel world, but in real life. I can show you a video of what I am talking about later.

Now once Shepard makes a choice, the real test starts.

If you pick Synthesis you jump in the Conduit beam, and the Reapers use Shepard's DNA and use the Crucible to rewrite everyones DNA, and can now Harvest everyone, to make more Capital Reaper ships.

If you pick Control the Reapers gain Control of Shepard's body, and thoughts, but Shepard has some Control of his/her body, and thoughts, but the Reapers own Shepard now.

In Destroy Shepard shot's the Conduit beam, and causes him/her to fly back.

Now I have another idea about the battle in space, and during Shepard's time on the Citadel/ talking to the Catalyst.

But will get to that later.

[The Heretic of Time]

Hrothdane, you really can't compare the IT to a group of atheists, as atheism is about the rejection of belief (in god), while the IT is embracing belief (in indoctrination).

IT really does have more in common with a religion than you think. Take Christianity for example. There are many different Christians with different interpretations on the bible scripture. Not all Christians agree with each other, not at all. To give an example: Some Christians believe in a litteral 6 days creation and defy the evolution theory, while some other Christians accept evolution and believe in a metaphorical 6 "days" creation.

The IT has more in common with religion than you think. Whether you take that as an insult or not is entirely up to you.

[LT123]

TheIdiocyWizard2.0 wrote...

When I last played through the game, I distinctly remember thinking to myself that the third dream, not the first two, sounded like it had extra whispers in it. I don't remember what they were, but I'm pretty sure I hear Tali say something (she was my LI). I don't remember what she said, and I may be remembering incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Thanks! I must experiment with this.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

My problem with IT is not important now. What is important is that I, at this point, no longer understand IT.

If Shepard is hallucinating during the ending, than the endings are real and really did happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: What's the difference between the IT and the litteral interpretation of the endings?

If Shepard is dreaming the ending, than the endings are just a dream and didn't really happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: Why do you insist the ending is a hallucination while it actually is a dream?

So what is it?

To me, the central idea of IT is that the choices the so-called Catalyst is offering you, are not legit options. You're being fooled. He's presenting the outcomes in a favourable light, but he's actually persuading you to go along with what the Reapers want. The ending sequences for Control and Synthesis are just illusions planted in your head by the Reapers. Sort of like the Matrix. You don't actually become some kind of Reaper-controlling AI god, I think you may become a Reaper yourself (let's say they'll use your identity as the 'main ingredient' for a human Reaper), and your goals will be aligned with the Reapers now, and Shepard's words in the Control ending will take on a whole new meaning.  In synthesis I think you'll get Reaper implants and become their agent. In any case, Whatever happens, it is not what you think it is, the Reapers are controlling you.

Whether Shepard is simply unconscious, or hallucinating, if he's in London or on the Citadel, that's not even that important to me. I do believe that what Shepard sees is an 'overlay' of reality so to speak. So when he's in the decision chamber, he's actually looking at the beacon in London, only his perception is slightly altered. But that's just details to me. What matters is, the Reapers are in your head and making you want to choose their side.

The most important reason I believe this is because Saren wanted synthesis and TIM wanted control. Both were clearly indoctrinated (whether the scene with TIM on the Citadel actually happened or not). If there's no indoctrination going on at the ending, and the ending is what it appears to be, then to me that means the point of the games was that Shepard was wrong about the Reapers all along, and the villains were right. Wut?

The only logical explanation is that the Reapers are messing with your head. The fact that control is made out to look like the Paragon choice and destroy is made to look like the Renegade choice supports this. In ME2, keeping the Collector Base was the Renegade option, the power hungry option, the option where you are going along with TIM, wanting to control the Reapers. Destroying the base because it was an abomination was the paragon dialogue option. In the end of ME3 this is reversed. Wanting to control the Reapers can't be the paragon option, the Reapers are still an abomination and a power nobody should be able to wield (which is what Shepard says in the paragon responses to TIM in the last confrontation.) Not saying Paragon is better than Renegade, just pointing out that the colours are clearly reversed, which proves manipulation.

Just for the record, I came up with the idea myself, I did not read about IT on the internet first. When I told my friends my theory, they pointed out to me that I wasn't the only one with this idea, and that's how I came here.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 14 août 2012 - 02:29 .

[JasonSic]

 I was just reading through the OP in this thread, and I found something interesting.

Arken wrote...

- Anderson was meant to be with Shepard on the way to the control panel. As in physically beside him. Anderson and Shepard would notice something strange happening to them once they reached the control panel, and suddenly realize they have their guns pointed at each other.

I'm assuming this happens before The Illusive Man shows up.
Hmm, I wonder what could cause this? 

[ZerebusPrime]

I'd say IT is more about rejecting what we saw in the game's finale and then embracing that rejection.  The analogy to atheism holds, IMHO.

[J the Speculator]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hrothdane, you really can't compare the IT to a group of atheists, as atheism is about the rejection of belief (in god), while the IT is embracing belief (in indoctrination).

IT really does have more in common with a religion than you think. Take Christianity for example. There are many different Christians with different interpretations on the bible scripture. Not all Christians agree with each other, not at all. To give an example: Some Christians believe in a litteral 6 days creation and defy the evolution theory, while some other Christians accept evolution and believe in a metaphorical 6 "days" creation.

The IT has more in common with religion than you think. Whether you take that as an insult or not is entirely up to you.

I actually agree

[Hrothdane]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hrothdane, you really can't compare the IT to a group of atheists, as atheism is about the rejection of belief (in god), while the IT is embracing belief (in indoctrination).

IT really does have more in common with a religion than you think. Take Christianity for example. There are many different Christians with different interpretations on the bible scripture. Not all Christians agree with each other, not at all. To give an example: Some Christians believe in a litteral 6 days creation and defy the evolution theory, while some other Christians accept evolution and believe in a metaphorical 6 "days" creation.

The IT has more in common with religion than you think. Whether you take that as an insult or not is entirely up to you.

As long as you understand my point that we don't have some kind of central dogma we all follow, I don't really care about the semantics of it.

I just hope you read the rest of the post

[The Heretic of Time]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

I'd say IT is more about rejecting what we saw in the game's finale and then embracing that rejection.  The analogy to atheism holds, IMHO.

Rejecting what we see is what Christian creationists do, not atheists. Atheists only reject scripture and dogma, written texts that are not part of reality.

But I guess both analogies can work. It doesn't matter and we shouldn't dwell on this, as discussion about religion is forbidden on the BSN.


And like I said earlier, I have to go. I actually already had to go 20 minutes ago.  See ya!

[Iconoclaste]

JasonSic wrote...

 I was just reading through the OP in this thread, and I found something interesting.

Arken wrote...

- Anderson was meant to be with Shepard on the way to the control panel. As in physically beside him. Anderson and Shepard would notice something strange happening to them once they reached the control panel, and suddenly realize they have their guns pointed at each other.

I'm assuming this happens before The Illusive Man shows up.
Hmm, I wonder what could cause this? 

Yes about 3 seconds before TIM shows up, so it can as well be said he's there, and we just don't see him. He pops out behind Shepard, in a quite "cinematic" arrival, but that means he was very close the whole time.

[ebuchala]

TJBartlemus wrote...

PS. On a new playthrough of ME3 and found that in the projection of TIM he looked like he does in ME2 but in person in his base it looks like he has aged a bit. I really don't see the reason for changing his appearance cosmetically at all. 

I noticed that on Mars at the archives. Thought it was interesting that the projection essentially erased all the lines on his face.

ETA: So I just noticed how incredibly behind on posts I am. You people talk too much

Modifié par ebuchala, 14 août 2012 - 02:29 .

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Hrothdane, you really can't compare the IT to a group of atheists, as atheism is about the rejection of belief (in god), while the IT is embracing belief (in indoctrination).

IT really does have more in common with a religion than you think. Take Christianity for example. There are many different Christians with different interpretations on the bible scripture. Not all Christians agree with each other, not at all. To give an example: Some Christians believe in a litteral 6 days creation and defy the evolution theory, while some other Christians accept evolution and believe in a metaphorical 6 "days" creation.

The IT has more in common with religion than you think. Whether you take that as an insult or not is entirely up to you.

IT is as much of a religion as, say, democracy or communism is. A religion can be defined as "A set of beliefs generally agreed upon by a number of people".
However, the definition of religion most people use is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe, usually involving devotational and ritual observances, and often contacting a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." and, obviously, that is not what the IT is.

[Iconoclaste]

I don't really see the relevancy of comparing IT to religion to democracy to zlitch. In essence, any kind of "discussion" will propose arguments relying on sets of facts, which are defined by beliefs to some amount. Nothing is "definitive" in actual or contemporary science, and in a logical discourse there has to be some reminders that all "knowledge" is based on "beliefs", themselves being rational or not, reasonable or not, etc.

[masster blaster]

Okay, I have been thinking, when Shepard is in a dream state, the Space battle is happening in real life, until Shepard meet's the catalyst.

Now when Shepard goes up the beam, We see the space battle, but then we see Hackett get a mysterious report about SOMEONE made it to the Citadel, not Shepard, or Anderson.

I say not Shepard, or Anderson because Hackett only says " Holy sh** he/she did it",. Now if you think about it, Hackett could have gotten false report, that SOMEONE made it to the Citadel. I say this because We have all talk about Coats either being a Reaper agent, or Cerberus agent. Maybe he sent Hackett a false report, and said that Shepard got some one up to the Citadel.

Now when Shepard wakes up on the Citadel, he/she is actually dreaming. things that Shepard has seen, and are being used, to Indoctrinated Shepard/ makes his/her mind more comfortable, so Shepard does not know that he/she is being indoctrinated.

Now once Shepard opens the citadel in his/her dream, the Citadel opens to allow the Crucible to dock. Now here's the thing.Once this happence Shepard is actually getting a radio transmission form Hackett back on Earth, that is why Hackett ask Shepard" nothing is happening. it's got to be something on YOUR end" Now Shepard could hardly speak,since he/she is bleeding out, and is starting to wake up. Now once Shepard passes out for blood lose. Harbinger fixes Shepard up.

To Continue the Indoctrination process, but is now over leaping reality, with a digital program.
The Reaper program. that is meant for indoctrination.
once Shepard picks Destroy, and only Destroy, Shepard blows up the Conduit side, not the whole thing, but the thing causing the indoctrination.

Hence why we get the breath scene. The things that we see in all the endings, are just all an illusion, nothing more, but maybe the Destroy ending epilogue is real, but we have to finish the Reapers for good, once Shepard wakes up, and maybe we will see more than the Destroy epilogue provides us.

Any thoughts?

TSA, what do you think. Does this also help to what you are talking about.

Modifié par masster blaster, 14 août 2012 - 03:11 .

[Iconoclaste]

You are still expecting future content to consolidate IT, and last time I visited this thread it looked like a bad way to go, remember? IT held itself together in its first stages, why now should it need more content?

[ebuchala]

LT123 wrote...

I read on a different site where someone who was digging through the EC files said the EC added a lot of new dead squadmate whispers in the nightmares. Anybody noticed a difference?

Where do you find those files to dig through them? Program Files?

Edit: Here's the link to that site.

Still late to the party so, sorry if I'm rehashing old stuff but...I DEFINITELY noticed a difference in the dream sequence. Extra whispers and more recognizable (I actually recognized a few of the voices/squadmates when I hadn't before). I also think there were more shadows and I thought I heard more Reaper-y sounds. I was actually really excited when I watched that part thinking they were definitely going with IT. And then, of course, we got the lovely slideshows instead showing how everything was going to be rainbows and butterflies as long as we did want the star brat wanted.

[Iconoclaste]

@ebuchala :

If you believe Shepard is undergoing an indoctrination attempt, then you must choose destroy, right? Why do you waste your time trying to make the "other" endings "relevant" to the indoc scheme? While playing the game, you face all of the ending choices, but you actually get to go through only 1 of those. The other endings, wether you believe in synthesis or control, are not "relevant" to each other : they are separate sets of events, on "parallel" storylines. IT applies to "destroy", and has the "breath scene" attached to it.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 14 août 2012 - 02:54 .

[LT123]

ebuchala wrote...

LT123 wrote...

I read on a different site where someone who was digging through the EC files said the EC added a lot of new dead squadmate whispers in the nightmares. Anybody noticed a difference?

Where do you find those files to dig through them? Program Files?

Edit: Here's the link to that site.

Still late to the party so, sorry if I'm rehashing old stuff but...I DEFINITELY noticed a difference in the dream sequence. Extra whispers and more recognizable (I actually recognized a few of the voices/squadmates when I hadn't before). I also think there were more shadows and I thought I heard more Reaper-y sounds. I was actually really excited when I watched that part thinking they were definitely going with IT. And then, of course, we got the lovely slideshows instead showing how everything was going to be rainbows and butterflies as long as we did want the star brat wanted.

Ooo. More voices in just the third dream, or all of them?

I noticed a ton of shadows in the third dream, although they may have been there in the original too. Creepy!

[TSA_383]

 

Rosewind wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Last exam done. I can do... whatever I want... whatever.... whatever I want...
BAHAHAHAHAHA

Also I'm TSA_383, and this is page 383, so I'm taking juristiction and posting this:

http://tinyurl.com/me3leviathanleak

YAY FINALLY!! Hope you did well!!!

Edit: Haha! Nice try Tsa you know that wouldnt work for me atleast only got intrested wen i sawsome one elses post!

 
As do I, I've got a degree riding on this stress 
And yeaaaaah, I was almost surprised so few people looked at it 

Rosewind wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Been speaking to Chriz - We've worked out how a lot of the stuff in the ending relates I think, even explaining the strange defibrillator noise on the citadel and Harbinger's anger at the "refuse" option in comparison to destroy.

But I'm not posting it all in here until the troll war calms down a bit.

Cruelty, thy name is TSA 

I guess I'll lurk patiently for now.

Yay welcome to the Corner!!! Pull up a chair!

I guess I'll just post the basics of what we looked at anyway:
Chriz posted a while back about the overlay theory, and was looking at the possibility that you're injured during the beam run and that what you see after the white-out with harbinger's beam actually takes place over a much shorter amount of time - the idea that shepard is lying injured in the rubble, but only for a few minutes, whereas the actual sequence runs for about half an hour.

He also made reference to Harbinger as the "devil", which got me thinking about Garrus's phrase in the FOB:
http://answers.yahoo...22072508AAqUxgb 

The origin of what Garrus is saying comes from an old irish superstition, that the devil (in this case played capably by harbinger) being the master of tricks and all, would attempt to trick you into giving yourself up to him after death, in the time before your soul reaches heaven. During that time in limbo, you're fair game, but the devil is only able to take the soul if it gives itself over to him willingly. Obviously, there's a pretty clear parallel between this and what we observe in the choice sequence, in which the reapers are attempting to bring you over to their side.

This, to me at least, would explain why the reapers are in such a hurry to make you make your choice - they have a very limited amount of time in which to take control, or Shepard will die and will therefore no longer be of use to them. It strikes me that Harbinger could have easily killed Shepard if it wanted to, but with a corpse, the best the reapers would be able to do with Shepard is create another husk, and that's clearly not why they've been after him/her for the past 2 games.
This would explain Harbinger's frustration if you neglect to make a decision - at least with the Destroy option they can try again to take Shepard, presumably with the refuse option you die, and what they need of you is your mind, they have plenty of husks already.
It would also explain why Harbinger is angry at refuse and not destroy - if you successfully resist it, Harbinger at least has the option to find another way to take over.
Finally, it explains why the AI just does not give a **** about you in low EMS ending - at this point your willpower is such that you're going to die whatever happens. It doesn't matter if they win you over or not. In low EMS the AI doesn't really even try to rush you along. It literally doesn't care.

So, how does this tie into the more obscure parts of the end sequence? Simple - when you're semi-conscious or unconscious and in a bad way, or if you're dreaming, in many cases you will still pick up on sounds in the outside world.

It is entirely possible that Shepard is hearing Coates' order to retreat over a nearby radio having been injured, but what's more interesting is what happens when you get into the beam.

That "defibrillator" noise with the sharp "Shepard!" is the first thing you hear on arriving in the citadel. It makes little sense, but what if whilst you're playing this sequence, Anderson and the Hammer squad are attempting to revive Shepard. It would certainly make a certain amount of sense given the situation.

So the jist of it is:

You're injured and dying, harbinger is attempting to trick you so that it can take control.
Control/Synthesis result in the reapers succesfully taking over and having an indoctrinated servant just as they desire.
Refuse results in your death, at which point you are of no use to the Reapers.
Destroy results in resistance, at which point you may (depending on EMS) be able to survive.

In the time you're out for, marines from hammer and possibly Anderson are attempting to revive you.
The reapers are in a rush at the end as they have a very limited amount of time left before you either die or recover...

Note that this isn't mutually exclusive with the idea of the "catalyst" being the reaper AI, it is entirely possible that what it tells you of its motives is true, as it would make sense for an AI to react this way to its task under certain situations.

Let me make the comparison again between the choice sequence and this scene in the matrix:  

The fact that the conversation is going on in Shepard's mind doesn't preclude the possibility that the catalyst's motivations are based on programming requiring it to prevent war between synthetics and organics from occuring - whilst there are obvious flaws in that programming that should have had safeguards, it is entirely possible that the Reapers are merely the result of a rogue AI created by the Leviathans.

So what do you think?

[ZerebusPrime]

Iconoclaste wrote...

You are still expecting future content to consolidate IT, and last time I visited this thread it looked like a bad way to go, remember? IT held itself together in its first stages, why now should it need more content?

Because all the low hanging fruit has been picked.  New material would make it easy to find new things.

In the meantime, if I find anything in my repeated playthroughs I will of course post it here.  I would stress, however, that someone with a lot of time on their hands needs to recollate every single piece of verifiable evidence amassed in the IT threads and set it up in a readable format online.  I know there have been attempts at that but all the ones I know of are dated.

[TheConstantOne]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

My problem with IT is not important now. What is important is that I, at this point, no longer understand IT.

If Shepard is hallucinating during the ending, than the endings are real and really did happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: What's the difference between the IT and the litteral interpretation of the endings?

If Shepard is dreaming the ending, than the endings are just a dream and didn't really happen.
In this case, I have to wonder: Why do you insist the ending is a hallucination while it actually is a dream?

So what is it?

This is a very good question and deciding what is a dream and what is a hallucination is a point of dissension for ITers.  Personally, I believe that Shepard made it to the Citadel after the Harbinger beam and the scenes that follow are "off" because of indoctrinating effects.  Once Shepard passes out in front of the control panel, he or she faces the final Crucible decision chamber primarily in the mental realm.  I'm up in the air as to whether this final room is actually in a dream where Shepard is not truly interacting with the Crucible or seeing an even more extreme distortion of reality wherein the choice made here decides how the Crucible is fired.  In both cases, however, the endings are not what they appear to be.

I'd say that the glue that holds all ITers together is the belief that Shepard is feeling the effects of indoctrination at the end of the game and, overlayed reality or all dreamed up while unconscious at the beam, the ending choices are not what they seem to be.  The hallucination and dream question is very important for speculative purposes but it is not the heart  of IT