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[masster blaster]

byne so what was your theory about RvB. I just watched the 10 episode, and i don't really get the last 2 minutes at all. i have a theory on what this all means, but I don't know what the hell happened.
can you pm me about your theory, or tell me on the IT thread.

[TSA_383]

Reposting for new page in the hope that we can actually make some progress here:

TSA_383 wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Been speaking to Chriz - We've worked out how a lot of the stuff in the ending relates I think, even explaining the strange defibrillator noise on the citadel and Harbinger's anger at the "refuse" option in comparison to destroy.

But I'm not posting it all in here until the troll war calms down a bit.

Cruelty, thy name is TSA 

I guess I'll lurk patiently for now.

Yay welcome to the Corner!!! Pull up a chair!

I guess I'll just post the basics of what we looked at anyway:
Chriz posted a while back about the overlay theory, and was looking at the possibility that you're injured during the beam run and that what you see after the white-out with harbinger's beam actually takes place over a much shorter amount of time - the idea that shepard is lying injured in the rubble, but only for a few minutes, whereas the actual sequence runs for about half an hour.

He also made reference to Harbinger as the "devil", which got me thinking about Garrus's phrase in the FOB:
http://answers.yahoo...22072508AAqUxgb 

The origin of what Garrus is saying comes from an old irish superstition, that the devil (in this case played capably by harbinger) being the master of tricks and all, would attempt to trick you into giving yourself up to him after death, in the time before your soul reaches heaven. During that time in limbo, you're fair game, but the devil is only able to take the soul if it gives itself over to him willingly. Obviously, there's a pretty clear parallel between this and what we observe in the choice sequence, in which the reapers are attempting to bring you over to their side.

This, to me at least, would explain why the reapers are in such a hurry to make you make your choice - they have a very limited amount of time in which to take control, or Shepard will die and will therefore no longer be of use to them. It strikes me that Harbinger could have easily killed Shepard if it wanted to, but with a corpse, the best the reapers would be able to do with Shepard is create another husk, and that's clearly not why they've been after him/her for the past 2 games.
This would explain Harbinger's frustration if you neglect to make a decision - at least with the Destroy option they can try again to take Shepard, presumably with the refuse option you die, and what they need of you is your mind, they have plenty of husks already.
It would also explain why Harbinger is angry at refuse and not destroy - if you successfully resist it, Harbinger at least has the option to find another way to take over.
Finally, it explains why the AI just does not give a **** about you in low EMS ending - at this point your willpower is such that you're going to die whatever happens. It doesn't matter if they win you over or not. In low EMS the AI doesn't really even try to rush you along. It literally doesn't care.

So, how does this tie into the more obscure parts of the end sequence? Simple - when you're semi-conscious or unconscious and in a bad way, or if you're dreaming, in many cases you will still pick up on sounds in the outside world.

It is entirely possible that Shepard is hearing Coates' order to retreat over a nearby radio having been injured, but what's more interesting is what happens when you get into the beam.

That "defibrillator" noise with the sharp "Shepard!" is the first thing you hear on arriving in the citadel. It makes little sense, but what if whilst you're playing this sequence, Anderson and the Hammer squad are attempting to revive Shepard. It would certainly make a certain amount of sense given the situation.

So the jist of it is:

You're injured and dying, harbinger is attempting to trick you so that it can take control.
Control/Synthesis result in the reapers succesfully taking over and having an indoctrinated servant just as they desire.
Refuse results in your death, at which point you are of no use to the Reapers.
Destroy results in resistance, at which point you may (depending on EMS) be able to survive.

In the time you're out for, marines from hammer and possibly Anderson are attempting to revive you.
The reapers are in a rush at the end as they have a very limited amount of time left before you either die or recover...

Note that this isn't mutually exclusive with the idea of the "catalyst" being the reaper AI, it is entirely possible that what it tells you of its motives is true, as it would make sense for an AI to react this way to its task under certain situations.

Let me make the comparison again between the choice sequence and this scene in the matrix:  

The fact that the conversation is going on in Shepard's mind doesn't preclude the possibility that the catalyst's motivations are based on programming requiring it to prevent war between synthetics and organics from occuring - whilst there are obvious flaws in that programming that should have had safeguards, it is entirely possible that the Reapers are merely the result of a rogue AI created by the Leviathans.

So what do you think?

[masster blaster]

masster blaster wrote...

Okay, I have been thinking, when Shepard is in a dream state, the Space battle is happening in real life, until Shepard meet's the catalyst.

Now when Shepard goes up the beam, We see the space battle, but then we see Hackett get a mysterious report about SOMEONE made it to the Citadel, not Shepard, or Anderson.

I say not Shepard, or Anderson because Hackett only says " Holy sh** he/she did it",. Now if you think about it, Hackett could have gotten false report, that SOMEONE made it to the Citadel. I say this because We have all talk about Coats either being a Reaper agent, or Cerberus agent. Maybe he sent Hackett a false report, and said that Shepard got some one up to the Citadel.

Now when Shepard wakes up on the Citadel, he/she is actually dreaming. things that Shepard has seen, and are being used, to Indoctrinated Shepard/ makes his/her mind more comfortable, so Shepard does not know that he/she is being indoctrinated.

Now once Shepard opens the citadel in his/her dream, the Citadel opens to allow the Crucible to dock. Now here's the thing.Once this happence Shepard is actually getting a radio transmission form Hackett back on Earth, that is why Hackett ask Shepard" nothing is happening. it's got to be something on YOUR end" Now Shepard could hardly speak,since he/she is bleeding out, and is starting to wake up. Now once Shepard passes out for blood lose. Harbinger fixes Shepard up.

To Continue the Indoctrination process, but is now over leaping reality, with a digital program.
The Reaper program. that is meant for indoctrination.
once Shepard picks Destroy, and only Destroy, Shepard blows up the Conduit side, not the whole thing, but the thing causing the indoctrination.

Hence why we get the breath scene. The things that we see in all the endings, are just all an illusion, nothing more, but maybe the Destroy ending epilogue is real, but we have to finish the Reapers for good, once Shepard wakes up, and maybe we will see more than the Destroy epilogue provides us.

Any thoughts?

TSA, what do you think. Does this also help to what you are talking about.

OR anybody.

Modifié par masster blaster, 14 août 2012 - 03:36 .

[byne]

masster blaster wrote...

byne so what was your theory about RvB. I just watched the 10 episode, and i don't really get the last 2 minutes at all. i have a theory on what this all means, but I don't know what the hell happened.
can you pm me about your theory, or tell me on the IT thread.

Spoilers obviously:

My theory was always that it wasnt really CT at the digsite, but someone else. Ever since ep 2 I've figured it was probly the guy with the Pill insignia.

Everyone else was always telling me it was just CT with a voice modulator like South used in Ep 1 of season 9, and like Tex used back in season 1, but I always figured it wasnt actually CT.

I dont see what there is to be confused about in the end of the episode, though.

[TheConstantOne]

TSA_383 wrote...

I guess I'll just post the basics of what we looked at anyway:
Chriz posted a while back about the overlay theory, and was looking at the possibility that you're injured during the beam run and that what you see after the white-out with harbinger's beam actually takes place over a much shorter amount of time - the idea that shepard is lying injured in the rubble, but only for a few minutes, whereas the actual sequence runs for about half an hour.

He also made reference to Harbinger as the "devil", which got me thinking about Garrus's phrase in the FOB:
http://answers.yahoo...22072508AAqUxgb 

The origin of what Garrus is saying comes from an old irish superstition, that the devil (in this case played capably by harbinger) being the master of tricks and all, would attempt to trick you into giving yourself up to him after death, in the time before your soul reaches heaven. During that time in limbo, you're fair game, but the devil is only able to take the soul if it gives itself over to him willingly. Obviously, there's a pretty clear parallel between this and what we observe in the choice sequence, in which the reapers are attempting to bring you over to their side.

This, to me at least, would explain why the reapers are in such a hurry to make you make your choice - they have a very limited amount of time in which to take control, or Shepard will die and will therefore no longer be of use to them. It strikes me that Harbinger could have easily killed Shepard if it wanted to, but with a corpse, the best the reapers would be able to do with Shepard is create another husk, and that's clearly not why they've been after him/her for the past 2 games.
This would explain Harbinger's frustration if you neglect to make a decision - at least with the Destroy option they can try again to take Shepard, presumably with the refuse option you die, and what they need of you is your mind, they have plenty of husks already.
It would also explain why Harbinger is angry at refuse and not destroy - if you successfully resist it, Harbinger at least has the option to find another way to take over.
Finally, it explains why the AI just does not give a **** about you in low EMS ending - at this point your willpower is such that you're going to die whatever happens. It doesn't matter if they win you over or not. In low EMS the AI doesn't really even try to rush you along. It literally doesn't care.

So, how does this tie into the more obscure parts of the end sequence? Simple - when you're semi-conscious or unconscious and in a bad way, or if you're dreaming, in many cases you will still pick up on sounds in the outside world.

It is entirely possible that Shepard is hearing Coates' order to retreat over a nearby radio having been injured, but what's more interesting is what happens when you get into the beam.

That "defibrillator" noise with the sharp "Shepard!" is the first thing you hear on arriving in the citadel. It makes little sense, but what if whilst you're playing this sequence, Anderson and the Hammer squad are attempting to revive Shepard. It would certainly make a certain amount of sense given the situation.

So the jist of it is:

You're injured and dying, harbinger is attempting to trick you so that it can take control.
Control/Synthesis result in the reapers succesfully taking over and having an indoctrinated servant just as they desire.
Refuse results in your death, at which point you are of no use to the Reapers.
Destroy results in resistance, at which point you may (depending on EMS) be able to survive.

In the time you're out for, marines from hammer and possibly Anderson are attempting to revive you.
The reapers are in a rush at the end as they have a very limited amount of time left before you either die or recover...

Note that this isn't mutually exclusive with the idea of the "catalyst" being the reaper AI, it is entirely possible that what it tells you of its motives is true, as it would make sense for an AI to react this way to its task under certain situations.

Let me make the comparison again between the choice sequence and this scene in the matrix:  

The fact that the conversation is going on in Shepard's mind doesn't preclude the possibility that the catalyst's motivations are based on programming requiring it to prevent war between synthetics and organics from occuring - whilst there are obvious flaws in that programming that should have had safeguards, it is entirely possible that the Reapers are merely the result of a rogue AI created by the Leviathans.

So what do you think?

TSA, you made a very interesting point with the "reboot noise" possibly being a defribilator.  That actually makes me reconsider my thoughts of indoc'ed Shepard making it to the Citadel. Hmmm.  Very nicely done sir or madam, whichever is the correct designation for you

Edit: I will happily contribute more to this discussion after I've had some time to meaningfully consider your points

Modifié par TheConstantOne, 14 août 2012 - 03:31 .

[ebuchala]

Iconoclaste wrote...

@ebuchala :

If you believe Shepard is undergoing an indoctrination attempt, then you must choose destroy, right? Why do you waste your time trying to make the "other" endings "relevant" to the indoc scheme? While playing the game, you face all of the ending choices, but you actually get to go through only 1 of those. The other endings, wether you believe in synthesis or control, are not "relevant" to each other : they are separate sets of events, on "parallel" storylines. IT applies to "destroy", and has the "breath scene" attached to it.

I wasn't trying to make any of the endings relevant to IT. I was saying that I was excited by the changes in the third dream because I thought they were going to show definite proof of IT in the EC with the destroy option, somehow; my excitement being based on the changes in the third dream. Instead of concrete proof, we got rainbows and butterflies.

(Did you see what I did there? )

[masster blaster]

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

byne so what was your theory about RvB. I just watched the 10 episode, and i don't really get the last 2 minutes at all. i have a theory on what this all means, but I don't know what the hell happened.
can you pm me about your theory, or tell me on the IT thread.

Spoilers obviously:

My theory was always that it wasnt really CT at the digsite, but someone else. Ever since ep 2 I've figured it was probly the guy with the Pill insignia.

Everyone else was always telling me it was just CT with a voice modulator like South used in Ep 1 of season 9, and like Tex used back in season 1, but I always figured it wasnt actually CT.

I dont see what there is to be confused about in the end of the episode, though.

I meant about your theory. i was thinking about what you had thought of, that's all.

Sorry, i meant while watching Ep 10 I was thinking on what your theorys was.

Modifié par masster blaster, 14 août 2012 - 03:39 .

[ebuchala]

LT123 wrote...

Ooo. More voices in just the third dream, or all of them?

I noticed a ton of shadows in the third dream, although they may have been there in the original too. Creepy!

To be honest, I didn't go back to any earlier dreams after the EC came out so I just noticed in the 3rd dream. Yep, I think there were tons more shadows in the 3rd dream.

I'm redoing the whole thing once Leviathan comes out, though, so I'll post if I notice a diff in the other dreams, as well.

[LT123]

ebuchala wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Ooo. More voices in just the third dream, or all of them?

I noticed a ton of shadows in the third dream, although they may have been there in the original too. Creepy!

To be honest, I didn't go back to any earlier dreams after the EC came out so I just noticed in the 3rd dream. Yep, I think there were tons more shadows in the 3rd dream.

I'm redoing the whole thing once Leviathan comes out, though, so I'll post if I notice a diff in the other dreams, as well.

Cool. I have a Shep who isn't very far in, so I might just restart with her and post if I see anything different in any of the dreams as well. I'm anxious for Leviathan to come out.

[TJBartlemus]

@ TSA - It absolutely makes sense. Good job and interesting speculations.

[TJBartlemus]

magnetite wrote...

Looks like Jack wasn't the only one Cerberus wanted to indoctrinate

Another one they wanted

Found another indoctrination symbol as well as "do not control"

Interesting....notice the symbols are for each choice. The yellow one is a birds eye view of the beam in London. The power one is a shout out to control which is power oritented. Both in literal as getting electricuted and in that power is not what Shepard should be seeking. 

[masster blaster]

I was right about TIM, and Cerberus all along. I knew that TIM got hsi army, bbecause he Indoctrinated Colonest, for his infintry, but he wanted the best to be his special forces.

I am gald that Jack's student's were not turned into husk/ the Reapers tools. In my play throughs. I would hate to fight them.

[masster blaster]

Yes I see TJ, also what do you think about my post bellow TSA's?

[TJBartlemus]

masster blaster wrote...

Yes I see TJ, also what do you think about my post bellow TSA's?

It's entirely possible. I think that TSA's makes more sense but your idea is equally possible as an explaination. :happy: 

[BansheeOwnage]

magnetite wrote...

Wanted to add something else. Indoctrination and "do not control" symbols I have so far only seen on missions which involved Cerberus.

That's interesting! Also does the sign say code 3 or code 89?

[byne]

Banshee! Thoughts on the new RvB episode?

[TJBartlemus]

magnetite wrote...

Wanted to add something else. Indoctrination and "do not control" symbols I have so far only seen on missions which involved Cerberus.

In ME3 there are a lot of wierd things with Cerberus and I am attempting to piece it together to find the bigger picture. The game is supposed to be the battle with the Reapers but if you look closer it looks like the Reapers are just a side annoyance and Cerberus is the main problem throughout the game. The ending parts was even supposed to be originally on TIM's base. London is even has multiple things showing Cerberus logos when Cerberus is supposed to be gone. Heck, Shepard even gets out at the FOB from a cleverly disguised Cerberus vehicle. Most of the main missions are about Cerberus when the missions are finished. Mars - Cerberus, Grissom - Cerberus, Citadel - Cerberus, Thessia - Cerberus. Plus there are many other Cerberus oriented missions that play a major point in the game. So why did BioWare have a majority of the game centered on Cerberus instead of the Reapers? 

Was it all a plan to distract the player from the worse threat? The Reapers? To desensitize the player from the Reaper's evils? To make it more likely for the player to choose something that would benefit the Reapers?

[TJBartlemus]

byne wrote...

TJ! Thoughts on the new RvB episode?

Why yes I do have some thoughts, thank you for asking.  Didn't you notice a big lack of the red team or blue team in this episode? Don't you think the action scenes are way better than they were years ago? I also like the ending and how it gave a big plot twist. How interesting. *takes swig of wine and puffs on tobacco pipe* Fine show my boy. *puts on speculation monocle* 

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

Banshee! Thoughts on the new RvB episode?

Glad it tied up the CT plot (not that I didn't like it). Turns out we were both right about CT being the pill dude in season 7. I actually first put this together when I recognized his voice in season 10. I also called how they would reveal what happened in both timeframes at the same time. We also got to see the blue guy fight, and for some reason he had an AR with explosive rounds.  Also glad the characters are now aware that Project Freelancer was fighting allies. I'm pretty surprised Carolina didn't just dismiss it like Tex, and seemed to sympathize with CT.

Overall good episode, good fight scene (the rap in fight scenes almost ruins it for me though ) and lots of plot. Did you notice the picture of the monitor (Hover-Church) on the monitor?

How did I get ninja'd in a question directed at me?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 14 août 2012 - 05:03 .

[ebuchala]

LT123 wrote...

ebuchala wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Ooo. More voices in just the third dream, or all of them?

I noticed a ton of shadows in the third dream, although they may have been there in the original too. Creepy!

To be honest, I didn't go back to any earlier dreams after the EC came out so I just noticed in the 3rd dream. Yep, I think there were tons more shadows in the 3rd dream.

I'm redoing the whole thing once Leviathan comes out, though, so I'll post if I notice a diff in the other dreams, as well.

Cool. I have a Shep who isn't very far in, so I might just restart with her and post if I see anything different in any of the dreams as well. I'm anxious for Leviathan to come out.

Oh, wait--you know what? I DID redo the very beginning with my "main" Shep and got through one dream. It wasn't any different that I remember. In fact, I was noticing how there were no shadows at all in the first dream. I don't think there were any whispers, either, just the distant sound of the boy giggling at first and then crying after the first "appearance" of the reaper (we don't see anything except a red light and hear the reaper horn sound).

Also, I seem to recall them saying that the EC dlc would only affect things from the last Cerberus mission on. They said, we would restart just before the last Cerberus mission to see all the dlc content so I think only the last dream is affected by the dlc.

[byne]

TJBartlemus wrote...

byne wrote...

TJ! Thoughts on the new RvB episode?

Why yes I do have some thoughts, thank you for asking.  Didn't you notice a big lack of the red team or blue team in this episode? Don't you think the action scenes are way better than they were years ago? I also like the ending and how it gave a big plot twist. How interesting. *takes swig of wine and puffs on tobacco pipe* Fine show my boy. *puts on speculation monocle* 

I forgot you watched it!

The plot twist (assuming you mean the one about CT) wasnt really a plot twist to me. Was what I'd always suspected.

The reds and blues are busy making moto-Church.

Church should ask Simmons for tips at being a mongoose.

[TJBartlemus]

BansheeOwnage wrote...
How did I get ninja'd in a question directed at me?

Skills or practice in the dark art of SPACE MAGIC.  You decide. 

[byne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

byne wrote...

Banshee! Thoughts on the new RvB episode?

Glad it tied up the CT plot (not that I didn't like it). Turns out we were both right about CT being the pill dude in season 7. I actually first put this together when I recognized his voice in season 10. I also called how they would reveal what happened in both timeframes at the same time. We also got to see the blue guy fight, and for some reason he had an AR with explosive rounds.  Also glad the characters are now aware that Project Freelancer was fighting allies. I'm pretty surprised Carolina didn't just dismiss it like Tex, and seemed to sympathize with CT.

Overall good episode, good fight scene (the rap in fight scenes almost ruins it for me though ) and lots of plot. Did you notice the picture of the monitor (Hover-Church) on the monitor?

How did I get ninja'd in a question directed at me?

I'm surprised Carolina didnt ask for clarification on Tex being a shadow. I wonder when the rest of the Freelancers will find out?

I agree the rap sucks. They shouldnt use rap at all, but especially not for fight scenes.

And I didnt notice Gumball McJones.

I liked that the minigun dudes bled yellow though, that was fun.