80611 réponses à ce sujet

[KneeTheCap]

On-topic: Anything new popped up?

Off-topic: I should comment something in my own thread, but...I just don't have the energy. Whatever I say, I get either blamed for being a cultist (perhaps an exaggeration) or shunned to the corner for being an idiot. Whatever I would say, it would not matter. I give up.

[Jusseb]

TSA_383 wrote...

http://social.biowar...17/398#13663225

Hey hanar (+ others who weren't around earlier) - I'm actually interested to see what you'd make of this - any thoughts?

I've found it quite interesting, great find.

[GethPrimeMKII]

KneeTheCap wrote...

On-topic: Anything new popped up?

Off-topic: I should comment something in my own thread, but...I just don't have the energy. Whatever I say, I get either blamed for being a cultist (perhaps an exaggeration) or shunned to the corner for being an idiot. Whatever I would say, it would not matter. I give up.

It's pointless. They'll think what they want to and bash anyone who thinks maybe, just maybe, Bioware's writing staff weren't replaced by monkeys when it came time to write the ending.

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 14 août 2012 - 02:57 .

[AxStapleton]

KneeTheCap wrote...

On-topic: Anything new popped up?

Off-topic: I should comment something in my own thread, but...I just don't have the energy. Whatever I say, I get either blamed for being a cultist (perhaps an exaggeration) or shunned to the corner for being an idiot. Whatever I would say, it would not matter. I give up.

Don't worry, you're neither. I just think you worded the title of your thread wrong. Maybe, "Why don't you think the IT is true?" would appear less sensationalist.

[pseudonymic]

Jusseb wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

http://social.biowar...17/398#13663225

Hey hanar (+ others who weren't around earlier) - I'm actually interested to see what you'd make of this - any thoughts?

I've found it quite interesting, great find.

indeed. it ties in nicely with the first thing we hear from major coats, about all units being lost or something along those lines. followed by the loss of weapon control and how everything spirals into a whirl of nonsense after that, it's a pretty clever way to interpret the origins of indoctrination.

[pseudonymic]

KneeTheCap wrote...

On-topic: Anything new popped up?

tsa's link to an older post has some pretty cool info. check it out above.

Off-topic: I should comment something in my own thread, but...I just don't have the energy. Whatever I say, I get either blamed for being a cultist (perhaps an exaggeration) or shunned to the corner for being an idiot. Whatever I would say, it would not matter. I give up.

ignore it. it's not worth it. remember this is the internet and people are going to be as rude as they actually come. 

[ZerebusPrime]

TSA_383 wrote...

Reposting for new page in the hope that we can actually make some progress here:

*massive snip*

So what do you think?

Remember when I joked about Harbinger wanting Shepard's brain in a literal sense?  My thoughts were basically these, but with the defibrulator sound being Harbinger "jacking in" to your brain somehow.  Shepard going into the beam would be a hallucination in this case, as that was Shepard's goal and his mind was desperate to reach it.  After that, though, we're dealing with a constructed reality that becomes progressively ordered as we proceed (starts out dark, messy, and built from multiple easy-to-access memories; ends up clean, polished, and new looking in the decision chamber).

The "Catalyst" child can still be entirely legitimate in how it presents its motives and reasoning.  It's even possible that the Citadel is responding to remote commands from Harbinger, allowing the Crucible to dock, and then Shepard is helping Harbinger decide what to do with it.  Possible but unlikely.

[GethPrimeMKII]

I think a lot of the negativity IT receives is because many don't understand it. Instead of starting from the beginning and understanding the theory, they pop in at like page 3000 and read up on whatever small bit of speculation were discussing and think: "This is it? This is what indoctrination theory is about?"

My point is the theory has probably never been laid out in full for these guys. They don't understand the full scope of it, not that that would be easy to find in the 5000+ pages this thread has gone on. I strongly believe a lack of information and understanding is what makes a lot of people dismiss IT as a crazy conspiracy theory.

[demersel]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I think a lot of the negativity IT receives is because many don't understand it. Instead of starting from the beginning and understanding the theory, they pop in at like page 3000 and read up on whatever small bit of speculation were discussing and think: "This is it? This is what indoctrination theory is about?"

My point is the theory has probably never been laid out in full for these guys. They don't understand the full scope of it, not that that would be easy to find in the 5000+ pages this thread has gone on. I strongly believe a lack of information and understanding is what makes a lot of people dismiss IT as a crazy conspiracy theory.

So all the links to the videos and post in the OP are there just for our pride and pleasure, right& and they don't explain anything at all?

[Leonia]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Reposting for new page in the hope that we can actually make some progress here:

*massive snip*

So what do you think?

Remember when I joked about Harbinger wanting Shepard's brain in a literal sense?  My thoughts were basically these, but with the defibrulator sound being Harbinger "jacking in" to your brain somehow.  Shepard going into the beam would be a hallucination in this case, as that was Shepard's goal and his mind was desperate to reach it.  After that, though, we're dealing with a constructed reality that becomes progressively ordered as we proceed (starts out dark, messy, and built from multiple easy-to-access memories; ends up clean, polished, and new looking in the decision chamber).

The "Catalyst" child can still be entirely legitimate in how it presents its motives and reasoning.  It's even possible that the Citadel is responding to remote commands from Harbinger, allowing the Crucible to dock, and then Shepard is helping Harbinger decide what to do with it.  Possible but unlikely.

Really makes me want to replay the geth consensus level because that seems like total foreshadowing.

[demersel]

What's new, btw? Was away from the internet for, like, two weeks..

[GethPrimeMKII]

demersel wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I think a lot of the negativity IT receives is because many don't understand it. Instead of starting from the beginning and understanding the theory, they pop in at like page 3000 and read up on whatever small bit of speculation were discussing and think: "This is it? This is what indoctrination theory is about?"

My point is the theory has probably never been laid out in full for these guys. They don't understand the full scope of it, not that that would be easy to find in the 5000+ pages this thread has gone on. I strongly believe a lack of information and understanding is what makes a lot of people dismiss IT as a crazy conspiracy theory.

So all the links to the videos and post in the OP are there just for our pride and pleasure, right& and they don't explain anything at all?

 I'm talking mostly about the folks who don't come to this thread, yet think IT is the dumbest thing they've ever heard of. I think if they took the time to read the information put out maybe they'd think differently. 

Also theres no need for sarcasm so let's not do that...

[demersel]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

demersel wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I think a lot of the negativity IT receives is because many don't understand it. Instead of starting from the beginning and understanding the theory, they pop in at like page 3000 and read up on whatever small bit of speculation were discussing and think: "This is it? This is what indoctrination theory is about?"

My point is the theory has probably never been laid out in full for these guys. They don't understand the full scope of it, not that that would be easy to find in the 5000+ pages this thread has gone on. I strongly believe a lack of information and understanding is what makes a lot of people dismiss IT as a crazy conspiracy theory.

So all the links to the videos and post in the OP are there just for our pride and pleasure, right& and they don't explain anything at all?

 I'm talking mostly about the folks who don't come to this thread, yet think IT is the dumbest thing they've ever heard of. I think if they took the time to read the information put out maybe they'd think differently. 

Also theres no need for sarcasm so let's not do that...

Haters gonna hate. No point in trying to explaining something, to those that know-it-all. 

Also - I really think the main problem it the title. "Indoctrination theory"  and the concept, when told in short - "it was all a dream" - it really makes us sound like some deranged lunatics, going "LA_LA_LA_ITDIDNTHAPPEN_LA_LA_LA" with our hands over our ears. That was exactly my thought when i saw this thread, when it has just began, and i have not yet finished the game - i was trying to avoid any spoilers, and though heard that there was something off with ending (really you just had to glance at the names of the topics here) - but i thought that it is really must be overblown, and some nerd nitpicking. 

[GethPrimeMKII]

I thought the same way you did after my first complete play through. The evidence didn't hit me until I saw Acayvos's Indoctrination video.

[ebuchala]

Mythanblood wrote...

The war was almost over? Did I miss something? Why should the current war with the Reapers only last a couple of weeks, if (or is it when? ) the last war between the Protheans and the Reapers lasted for decades or even centuries?

I mentioned this on the WNT thread--it bugs me that the Protheans were at war for 150 years at least and humans come in on this cycle and supposedly end the the war in less than a year. Farfetched in my opinion, which is part of the reason I like IT. Leaves things open for ME4 to finish the war a few decades down the road.

[TJBartlemus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Even if they are not typical symptoms, the files for the brown stuff while talking with TIM/Anderson have names with indoctrination or harbinger in them, can't remember precisely but both of them occur in the file for that section.

That's because TIM is trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Even if you accept the endings at face-value, it's clear TIM has the power to indoctrinate others at this point. He uses that power to take control over Shepard, or at least, that's what he's trying.

Wait. So you admit that TIM is trying to indoctrinate Shepard right? You also have admitted that TIM is being influenced by the Reapers at that point. So 1+1=2. The Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard. The reapers "controlled" TIM. So what he does is benefitting the Reapers. 

[Sero303]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Even if they are not typical symptoms, the files for the brown stuff while talking with TIM/Anderson have names with indoctrination or harbinger in them, can't remember precisely but both of them occur in the file for that section.

That's because TIM is trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Even if you accept the endings at face-value, it's clear TIM has the power to indoctrinate others at this point. He uses that power to take control over Shepard, or at least, that's what he's trying.

Wait. So you admit that TIM is trying to indoctrinate Shepard right? You also have admitted that TIM is being influenced by the Reapers at that point. So 1+1=2. The Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard. The reapers "controlled" TIM. So what he does is benefitting the Reapers. 

2+2= 22

[ebuchala]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

When a reaper tries to indoctrinate an individual, they mentally break the individual first. When the individual is completely broken and nothing more than a pathetic piece of crap, they'll start feeding the broken mind with suggestions that will make the indoctrinated individual agree with the reapers and their philosophy. At least, that's what happened with Paul Grayson.

Someone may have responded to this already but this is an innacurate assessment, other than the final statement "that's what happened with Paul Grayson."

Kinson acted completely sane until it was revealed that she was indoctrinated. The descriptions you get on the derelect Reaper also indicate that the indoctrination is subtle. Paranoia, shared hallucinations, etc., before people started outright worshipping the Reapers. There are obviously different methods of indoctrination, perhaps based on the individuals involved.

Also, Shepard is apparently different regarding issues of the mind and will, which is made plain in ME1 when Liara explains that anyone else receiving the info stored in the Prothean beacon the way Shepard did would have been killed. I don't think the Reapers would be using the same indoc methods on Shepard as they do on everyone else.

[TJBartlemus]

Sero303 wrote...

2+2= 22

*facepalm* How could I argue with that math? It makes total sense. 

[munnellyladt]

pseudonymic wrote...

Jusseb wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

http://social.biowar...17/398#13663225

Hey hanar (+ others who weren't around earlier) - I'm actually interested to see what you'd make of this - any thoughts?

I've found it quite interesting, great find.

indeed. it ties in nicely with the first thing we hear from major coats, about all units being lost or something along those lines. followed by the loss of weapon control and how everything spirals into a whirl of nonsense after that, it's a pretty clever way to interpret the origins of indoctrination.

TSA,that is a great find and excellent presentation,but I have to disagree with you about the defibulater noise.
It would make sense but the breath scene kind of disproves that,since he is under rubble and there is no sign of any medical epuipment anywhere. they could not have tried to revive him or maybe they did andfailed so they decided to build him a grave out of rubble.

[Leonia]

Well, a lot of things TIM does support the Reapers though that is not his intention, you can't be definitely sure that TIM indoctrinating Shepard is done for the benefit of the Reapers even if it potentially results in what the Reapers want. Not everything is as simple as black and white, there's always a bit of grey to sift through. Maybe all that studying of indoctrination on the part of Cerberus is done to find a "cure", perhaps Shepard is the ultimate test subject. Though Cerberus has a terrible habit of letting its experiments get out of hand..

[demersel]

ebuchala wrote...

Mythanblood wrote...

The war was almost over? Did I miss something? Why should the current war with the Reapers only last a couple of weeks, if (or is it when? ) the last war between the Protheans and the Reapers lasted for decades or even centuries?

I mentioned this on the WNT thread--it bugs me that the Protheans were at war for 150 years at least and humans come in on this cycle and supposedly end the the war in less than a year. Farfetched in my opinion, which is part of the reason I like IT. Leaves things open for ME4 to finish the war a few decades down the road.

Actually this is the most likely scenario in my opinion - ME3 was indeed THE END of the Shepard's story. - And the story endend with shepard getting MIA during the first battle of Sol. And in that sense  the whole end section, (starting for cronos) - is the final part of Shepards battle for his/her sanity, identity and mind. It is a very personal struggle. Couse we realy have done everything that is there to be done for the galaxy BEFORE that point. Evereything that follows have very little significance for the galaxy, but is crucial for shepard and his closest friends. It also strikes me as brilliant way to end the stroy (hold the stones) - as it clerly shows that shepard IS NOT centre of this universe. He can't be everywhere, save everyone and fight every battle, take down every reaper by himself. He has done his part (and more so) BEFORE cronos station. 

Also. Conventional victory - hear me out on this. It is possible. That is why there is EMS. You just don't get to see it. (either yet, or at all, and by you i mena shepard) My theory - that reapers are beatable but it takes a lot of time. More over their situation almost hopeless in the long run for some unkown reason, but it is strongly suggested but their actions - all their actions are the actions of desperation, and they sure don't want anyone to think so. (perhaps protheans did them more damage, that they care to admitt, or whatever). So even with the lowest possible EMS the victory evetually will happen. It will take time, it will be bloody, but it will happen. that's around 2500. The more you do - the quicker the victory, less are the casualties. Now. thats' about the main part of the game - remember - very little of what shepard is doing has to do with the cruicible - it get's build regardless of your actions, and it's presense doesn't really affect the out come of the war - you can still lose with it ready. So logical answer to this - the key to victory is not the crucible but uniting the galaxy, and fixing it's problems, getting assets etc. 

sadly shepards story ends on that beam run. and it is up to us whether he survives it or not, whether there is enough forces in the galaxy to fend the reapers of and hove some one to pick him up from the rubble. (just like in the box art for the collector's edition) 

Personally, for me, even with out the possible addition of the scenes after that, that is a good point ot end this story. And i really liked the original cut of the game better in that sense. It was more streamlined. 

[Dr JaMiN]

munnellyladt wrote...

pseudonymic wrote...

Jusseb wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

http://social.biowar...17/398#13663225

Hey hanar (+ others who weren't around earlier) - I'm actually interested to see what you'd make of this - any thoughts?

I've found it quite interesting, great find.

indeed. it ties in nicely with the first thing we hear from major coats, about all units being lost or something along those lines. followed by the loss of weapon control and how everything spirals into a whirl of nonsense after that, it's a pretty clever way to interpret the origins of indoctrination.

TSA,that is a great find and excellent presentation,but I have to disagree with you about the defibulater noise.
It would make sense but the breath scene kind of disproves that,since he is under rubble and there is no sign of any medical epuipment anywhere. they could not have tried to revive him or maybe they did andfailed so they decided to build him a grave out of rubble.

Another reason it might not be a defibrilator is that it has a more intense, reaperish sound to it. It's still good speculations though.

[Leonia]

The defibrilator sound sure reminded me of Overlord when Shepard's omnitool is hacked or when loading into the geth consensus. Was the sound actually used any where else?

[TJBartlemus]

So what about them speculations?