Sidenote: How does that prove Byne doesn't understand IT?
Because even he couldn't cut to the real heart of the theory he's threadmaster of. Instead, he supported that the main idea of IT is the dream hypothesis.
In fact, the only person I can recall who actually managed to boil it down close to that point (IT is about the how Shepard must choose Right against immense encouragement to choose Wrong) was DoomsdayDevice, and even then I don't think he went all the way and just stopped at "Control and Synthesis represent accepting the reaper doctrine". Unfortunately he touched upon it without in-depth expansion and was quickly forgotten, and I don't even know where that post is now.
I believe I mentioned a similar point to your counter to Heretic but I think the Hanar never saw my comment. Hopefully he sees your post...ideas can get buried pretty fast here
Sidenote: How does that prove Byne doesn't understand IT?
Because even he couldn't cut to the real heart of the theory he's threadmaster of. Instead, he supported that the main idea of IT is the dream hypothesis.
In fact, the only person I can recall who actually managed to boil it down close to that point (IT is about the how Shepard must choose Right against immense encouragement to choose Wrong) was DoomsdayDevice, and even then I don't think he went all the way and just stopped at "Control and Synthesis represent accepting the reaper doctrine". Unfortunately he touched upon it without in-depth expansion and was quickly forgotten, and I don't even know where that post is now.
I believe I mentioned a similar point to your counter to Heretic but I think the Hanar never saw my comment. Hopefully he sees your post...ideas can get buried pretty fast here
No kidding... I've been saying stuff about 'what IT really is about' for weeks, but mostly everybody ignores me. (IIRC, only ZerebusPrime said he agreed with me)
Thankfully Simon_says noticed what I said! I finally feel like a real thread contributor.
Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 15 août 2012 - 02:08 .
Quoted simon's post in this troll thread. I may continue doing so in other troll threads
TSA, I am shocked you are doing this, but then again it's your birthday, just make sure you don't do anything else that can get you introuble okay.
It's my birthday yes (technically... it's 2am here...), but right now I'm busy packing - I'm meeting up with people tomorrow and celebrating then So yeah, I'll be gone in about an hour and probably won't show my face on here for a few days.
Also I suspect I killed that thread...
Don't leave us before I can say Happy Birthday! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!
So where are you off to? It's got to be better than where I am now. <_< God I hate having to live in RV parks when I can live somewhere else. Can't wait till house is done.
Sidenote: How does that prove Byne doesn't understand IT?
Because even he couldn't cut to the real heart of the theory he's threadmaster of. Instead, he supported that the main idea of IT is the dream hypothesis.
In fact, the only person I can recall who actually managed to boil it down close to that point (IT is about the how Shepard must choose Right against immense encouragement to choose Wrong) was DoomsdayDevice, and even then I don't think he went all the way and just stopped at "Control and Synthesis represent accepting the reaper doctrine". Unfortunately he touched upon it without in-depth expansion and was quickly forgotten, and I don't even know where that post is now.
I believe I mentioned a similar point to your counter to Heretic but I think the Hanar never saw my comment. Hopefully he sees your post...ideas can get buried pretty fast here
No kidding... I've been saying stuff about 'what IT really is about' for weeks, but mostly everybody ignores me. (IIRC, only ZerebusPrime said he agreed with me)
Thankfully Simon_says noticed what I said! I finally feel like a real thread contributor.
Haha, indeed it feels nice to get some recognition
The next thing to do: get noticed for some really insightful observation and watch the thread build a theory around you. Best of luck, I'm still working on that one haha
Guys Shepard is fly's back words, and does not get a direct hit from harbinger.
look at 4:01 between 4:04. now pause it at 4:04 Shepard is flying back words, not getting hit by the death ray, but by causing Shepard to feel the heat of the beam. In which case knocking Shepard back, and having his/her armor Shredded/bleeding. Now why would Harbinger let Shepard live. I already know why, but what do you think.
Now remember in the Destroy ending, when we use fly came, Shepard is flying back.
Any thoughts?
Modifié par masster blaster, 15 août 2012 - 02:41 .
Quoted simon's post in this troll thread. I may continue doing so in other troll threads
Should be required reading for all detractors and trolls. If they still refuse after, well that's on them, but it's the most concise argument I've seen in support of IT. Also, Happy Birthday, well-dressed speculation kitteh and all.
They are lost of words, and they are saying. Good for you IT works in your head, but in the real game, no
Oh and guys TSA got that thread closed.
Modifié par masster blaster, 16 août 2012 - 12:09 .
There is a Slenderman in our midst. Do not even look at him. Quick, speculate about eating some cheeseburgers and maybe he'll think about wanting to eat some cheeseburgers too and leave.
There is a Slenderman in our midst. Do not even look at him. Quick, speculate about eating some cheeseburgers and maybe he'll think about wanting to eat some cheeseburgers too and leave.
EDIT: Darn it, not again with double posts. I hate this computer.
Seems the crux of what Simon Says is that you have to battle through disinformation and confusion to not be fooled into making the wrong choice. Destroy being the general consensus on what that correct choice is.
To me, that's not really indoctrination theory. It's merely variation on a literal interpretation that merely posits that only one choice is correct. What he calls indoctrination, I call Starchild trying to confuse you. No physical indoctrination occurs. It's a perfectly valid view, and may very well be correct
However, to me, IT is at it's core assuming that reality is being altered to varying degrees by a tangible process of physiological indoctrination. Infrasonic signals etc
So you think our final operation is going to be Earth. If it's merging into SP, which it is. I think.
Yeah, I'm thinking we'll get one more operation that's Earth focused. The region it emphasizes might be where Shepard goes next, IF there is any post game DLC. Like I said, a lot will be decided should they choose to address the Londond the beam charge from the MP perspective.
Earlier, I think someone mentioned that the added soldier cutscene took place in Rio, right? That scene might be the focus of the next op
I think it says Rio, but if you look around it's clearly London.
Seems the crux of what Simon Says is that you have to battle through disinformation and confusion to not be fooled into making the wrong choice. Destroy being the general consensus on what that correct choice is. To me, that's not really indoctrination theory. It's merely variation on a literal interpretation that merely posits that only one choice is correct. What he calls indoctrination, I call Starchild trying to confuse you. No physical indoctrination occurs. It's a perfectly valid view, and may very well be correct
However, to me, IT is at it's core assuming that reality is being altered to varying degrees by a tangible process of physiological indoctrination. Infrasonic signals etc
No kidding... I've been saying stuff about 'what IT really is about' for weeks, but mostly everybody ignores me. (IIRC, only ZerebusPrime said he agreed with me)
Thankfully Simon_says noticed what I said! I finally feel like a real thread contributor.
Heh. I've been largely ignored most of the time, too. I've been with these threads since the beginning but I don't think my name is on any of those contributor lists.
Now then. Regarding IT about being tricked into choosing something other than Destroy.... yes that's the implication of IT in how we view the various ending choices. And on that note I have a thought on Synthesis. If you choose Synthesis, what you see is pretty much a perfect world emerge. By way of IT, the visions of that world could be a form of pleasure reward for doing what the Reapers want.
Seems the crux of what Simon Says is that you have to battle through disinformation and confusion to not be fooled into making the wrong choice. Destroy being the general consensus on what that correct choice is. To me, that's not really indoctrination theory. It's merely variation on a literal interpretation that merely posits that only one choice is correct. What he calls indoctrination, I call Starchild trying to confuse you. No physical indoctrination occurs. It's a perfectly valid view, and may very well be correct
However, to me, IT is at it's core assuming that reality is being altered to varying degrees by a tangible process of physiological indoctrination. Infrasonic signals etc
No, the point is that, yes, Shepard may be hallucinating/dreaming, but what makes IT indoctrination is that the Reapers are persuading you to make the wrong choice. That is the crux of it, the heart of the story. Not what the location of the breath scene is, that's just a technicality.
What makes the synthesis/control choices obviously wrong (and connects them with indoctrination) is that they represent the very things the two main villains wanted, Saren & TIM respectively. Both of these guys were clearly indoctrinated. That should tell you enough about the options presented to you.
The heart of IT is where the heart of the story is at. The point of the story is not that the villains were right and Shepard was wrong all along. Well, that is the point in the literal interpretation.
Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 15 août 2012 - 02:45 .
In other words, classic literal interpretation claims all choices are to varying extents morally subjective and it's up to the individual to decide what's right. Simons position is that Starchild/Reapers are attempting to influence you into making the wrong choice.
classic IT puts forth that things are totally/partially a distortion of reality. Essentially, if there is no physical act of indoctrination as it's known within the context of the Mass Effect universe, then it is not Indoctrination Theory.
No no, the point is that, yes, Shepard may be hallucinating/dreaming, but what makes IT indoctrination is that the Reapers are persuading you to make the wrong choice. That is the crux of it, the heart of the story. Not what the location of the breath scene is, that's just a technicality.
What makes the synthesis/control choices obviously wrong (and connects them with indoctrination) is that they represent the very things the two main villains wanted, Saren & TIM respectively. Both of these guys were clearly indoctrinated. That should tell you enough about the options presenetd to you.
The heart of IT is where the point of the story is. The point of the story is not that the villains were right and Shepard was wrong all along. Well, that is the point in the literal interpretation.
I disagree, and agree with Byne. The heart of IT isn't that we are being duped; I believe that's a literal interpretation. IT involves altered reality on some level. There is also duping but w/e. Doesn't really matter though.
Quoted simon's post in this troll thread. I may continue doing so in other troll threads
TSA, I am shocked you are doing this, but then again it's your birthday, just make sure you don't do anything else that can get you introuble okay.
It's my birthday yes (technically... it's 2am here...), but right now I'm busy packing - I'm meeting up with people tomorrow and celebrating then So yeah, I'll be gone in about an hour and probably won't show my face on here for a few days.
Also I suspect I killed that thread...
Don't leave us before I can say Happy Birthday! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!
So where are you off to? It's got to be better than where I am now. <_< God I hate having to live in RV parks when I can live somewhere else. Can't wait till house is done.
BansheeOwnage wrote...
TSA_383 wrote...
Also, I'm 21 as of an hour ago - unfortunately not out drinking because I'm getting on a flight in 11 hours to go somewhere more interesting
Happy Birthday!
Why thankyou I'm dropping by home for a day or two for drinkage with my friends, then I'm going to Switzerland for a week, probably doing some speedflying and the like whilst I'm there
Also, it really seems to have been a day for massive text walls. Quoting the two here - maybe we should make seperate topics on the board with some of this stuff - it'd get a fun reaction
TSA_383 wrote... I guess I'll just post the basics of what we looked at anyway: Chriz posted a while back about the overlay theory, and was looking at the possibility that you're injured during the beam run and that what you see after the white-out with harbinger's beam actually takes place over a much shorter amount of time - the idea that shepard is lying injured in the rubble, but only for a few minutes, whereas the actual sequence runs for about half an hour.
The origin of what Garrus is saying comes from an old irish superstition, that the devil (in this case played capably by harbinger) being the master of tricks and all, would attempt to trick you into giving yourself up to him after death, in the time before your soul reaches heaven. During that time in limbo, you're fair game, but the devil is only able to take the soul if it gives itself over to him willingly. Obviously, there's a pretty clear parallel between this and what we observe in the choice sequence, in which the reapers are attempting to bring you over to their side.
This, to me at least, would explain why the reapers are in such a hurry to make you make your choice - they have a very limited amount of time in which to take control, or Shepard will die and will therefore no longer be of use to them. It strikes me that Harbinger could have easily killed Shepard if it wanted to, but with a corpse, the best the reapers would be able to do with Shepard is create another husk, and that's clearly not why they've been after him/her for the past 2 games. This would explain Harbinger's frustration if you neglect to make a decision - at least with the Destroy option they can try again to take Shepard, presumably with the refuse option you die, and what they need of you is your mind, they have plenty of husks already. It would also explain why Harbinger is angry at refuse and not destroy - if you successfully resist it, Harbinger at least has the option to find another way to take over. Finally, it explains why the AI just does not give a **** about you in low EMS ending - at this point your willpower is such that you're going to die whatever happens. It doesn't matter if they win you over or not. In low EMS the AI doesn't really even try to rush you along. It literally doesn't care.
So, how does this tie into the more obscure parts of the end sequence? Simple - when you're semi-conscious or unconscious and in a bad way, or if you're dreaming, in many cases you will still pick up on sounds in the outside world.
It is entirely possible that Shepard is hearing Coates' order to retreat over a nearby radio having been injured, but what's more interesting is what happens when you get into the beam.
That "defibrillator" noise with the sharp "Shepard!" is the first thing you hear on arriving in the citadel. It makes little sense, but what if whilst you're playing this sequence, Anderson and the Hammer squad are attempting to revive Shepard. It would certainly make a certain amount of sense given the situation.
So the jist of it is:
You're injured and dying, harbinger is attempting to trick you so that it can take control. Control/Synthesis result in the reapers succesfully taking over and having an indoctrinated servant just as they desire. Refuse results in your death, at which point you are of no use to the Reapers. Destroy results in resistance, at which point you may (depending on EMS) be able to survive.
In the time you're out for, marines from hammer and possibly Anderson are attempting to revive you. The reapers are in a rush at the end as they have a very limited amount of time left before you either die or recover...
Note that this isn't mutually exclusive with the idea of the "catalyst" being the reaper AI, it is entirely possible that what it tells you of its motives is true, as it would make sense for an AI to react this way to its task under certain situations.
Let me make the comparison again between the choice sequence and this scene in the matrix:
The fact that the conversation is going on in Shepard's mind doesn't preclude the possibility that the catalyst's motivations are based on programming requiring it to prevent war between synthetics and organics from occuring - whilst there are obvious flaws in that programming that should have had safeguards, it is entirely possible that the Reapers are merely the result of a rogue AI created by the Leviathans.
So what do you think?
Simon_Says wrote... That’s right, you don’t. Granted, a lot of IT supporters don't understand it either (even Byne). Specifically, what IT is about. Or rather, what it should be about. Literalists and theorists alike pay attention. Let me try to break it down for you.
WHAT INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS ABOUT
IT at its core isn't about the dream sequence, or hallucinations, though we do deduce them. IT isn't about trivializing the ending or retconning it, quite the opposite in fact. IT isn't about hoping Bioware will come up with a better ending down the line, since we hope not for new endings but new epilogue material. And IT isn’t about disrespecting Bioware or its writing talents. In fact we’re celebrating it.
IT accepts the ending we saw as the ending we have. IT accepts that the ending we saw is the culmination of the series. IT accepts that any DLC related to the ending or post-ending will not change the fundamentals of ME3’s ending.
What IT is actually about is this: The primary plot of ME3 is not just saving the galaxy from cuttlefish. It’s the struggle for the soul of the galaxy against hostile powers that would devour it. Shepard’s journey is central to that, and decides the outcome. You must overcome deception, manipulation and temptation to achieve victory. If you fail, if you let fear or doubt compromise your judgment, you will become a tyrant just like the monsters you fought.
The entire series has revolved around ethics, their diversity and the conflicts that arise from them. It establishes the setting, defines characters, and is the focus of virtually every important mission in all three games. The reapers and their indoctrinate agents are antagonists because above all else they are unethical, and they drag all other life around them down to their level, where terror and suffering are deemed acceptable and where compassion cannot be found.
According to IT, if you choose either Control or Synthesis, you were brought down to that level. To some degree you will have accepted the reapers’ justifications for the unjustifiable. You will have believed the unbelievable. You will have trusted the untrustworthy. You will have betrayed everything and everyone you fought for throughout three games, and you will have done so for dubious promises or empty self-satisfaction. You will have robbed the galaxy of the chance to build a future for itself because you accepted a future that your enemy presented to you.
But if you choose Destroy or Reject*, you will have beaten their efforts to turn you. You will have accepted the terrible price, real or imagined, but saved the integrity of galactic life. You will not have compromised with the planet raping cuttlefish who spread terror and madness wherever they tread. You will have had the good grace to know right from wrong, no matter what code of ethics you stand by.
Basically, you must choose Right against immense encouragement to choose Wrong. That’s the fundamental idea of Indoctrination Theory.
It’s not that the ending is a dream or there’s a reset button. We think there was a dream, but that doesn’t mean what we saw didn’t matter, and it’s not a necessary component to the core idea. Hell, you can imagine the end sequence as actually happening completely and this idea can still be valid. And the EC did nothing to dispel it as invalid. But of course the theory is not just this idea but involves larger case surrounding it…
*We can’t agree on whether or not Reject is in fact a victory condition. There is simply too little information regarding it to agree one way or the other.
THE CASE FOR INDOCTRINATION THEORY
The Catalyst appears as the Earthchild. Thus we can conclude that the Catalyst was actively directing Shepard’s perceptions. Since it openly associates with the reapers, encourages choices reminiscent of the goals of indoctrinated villains, and provides no proof but its word that it is not the enemy still, we conclude that the Catalyst is trying to manipulate us for its own ends and not Shepard’s benefit. From here we can begin to build a case for an indoctrination attempt occurring in the final minutes of ME3.
We see Shepard waking up in rubble that is one iota shy of being undoubtedly London rubble, thus we conclude dreams and hallucinations. Granted we can’t determine exactly what the balance is between reality and fantasy between different shots let alone different scenes. But dreams have already been used in the series before both as plot vehicles and as established vectors of indoctrination. From this we can establish method.
We find that Shepard has canonically been in the vicinity of indoctrinating presences for significant periods of time (not even getting into optional opportunities such as Arrival), and that Shepard does exhibit established symptoms of undergoing an indoctrination process. Coupled with the absence of reason to believe otherwise we conclude that Shepard must have been touched by indoctrination to some degree by the time of Priority: Earth. We can establish opportunity.
We see the reapers behaving completely contrary to what should be expected, including allowing the relay network to remain functional and Harbinger implausibly failing to kill Shepard. From that we conclude that the reapers were planning to indoctrinate Shepard for their ends. Considering Shepard’s achievements and significance, and therefore Shepards possible usefulness to the reapers as an indoctrinated agent, we can establish motive.
Method. Opportunity. Motive. We have a case for Shepard undergoing indoctrination. It’s a solid case. It’s a mother beautiful case. It’s coherent and consistent with the rest of the series. It’s based on facts. It answers so many questions and fixes so many problems. There are literally hundreds of pages of circumstantial evidence in support of it…
Many theorists leap to the conclusion that the Indoctrination Theory must have been consciously implemented by Bioware. But that’s a separate theory entirely. It’s its own case that must be evaluated as such. And it’s a much trickier case. Whilst Bioware certainly had the method and opportunity to implement IT, the arguments for their motive to do so still are still shaky, many of the implications if the case turns out correct can be construed as unpleasant, and there is simply not a strong body of evidence, circumstantial or direct to support it. There is the curious presentation Earthchild’s introduction, and there is Shepard spontaneously developing TIM eyes in Control and Synthesis, there’s even Coats’ odd cameo in the Citadel corpse pile, but there is honestly very little else that approaches anywhere near solid that Bioware intended IT.
You can’t use the majority of the body of circumstantial evidence for Indoctrination Theory to support “Bioware Intends IT Theory” because that’s trying to apply Watsonian evidence to a Doylist argument. Many literalists here have done the exact opposite. They bring up evidence that could be construed as “bad writing”, whether it be inept, lazy, ham-fisted, etc. to discredit IT. But that’s trying to counter a Watsonian theory with Doylist arguments.
Either way, it’s essentially comparing apples to oranges. You can argue the merits of Indoctrination Theory with Watsonian evidence. You can argue the idea that Bioware intends IT with Doylist evidence. But please for the love of all that’s good on this planet stop being dolts and mixing them up. They’re separate theories that need to be evaluated and dealt with separately. And stop falling for your confirmation biases. It’s lazy and stupid. It’s bad speculation.
I like Indoctrination Theory. It’s my head canon. But I’m currently completely agnostic about believing whether Bioware will actually embrace it as canon or not. I usually lean against the idea. What I know is that IT is for the moment only a theory. It’s a plausible, valid theory, but it’s not a proven fact. And the only trier of fact who can confirm or debunk it as fact is Bioware.
But then again it shouldn’t be disparaged because it’s only “wishful thinking”. Indoctrination Theory is about choosing Right from Wrong. Its purpose is to provide closure. It provides coherency and depth to what is otherwise a shallow and broken conclusion. If you disagree with these statements, either provide good alternatives or get the hell out.
TLDR: F*ck it, just read the damn wall.
Note: Sorry for polluting the thread with these text-walls.
In my humble opinion, the crux of IT is simply that Shepard's perceptions and thought processes are being subtly warped by indoctrination. The being tricked part is an implication.
In other words, classic literal interpretation claims all choices are to varying extents morally subjective and it's up to the individual to decide what's right. Simons position is that Starchild/Reapers are attempting to influence you into making the wrong choice.
classic IT puts forth that things are totally/partially a distortion of reality. Essentially, if there is no physical act of indoctrination as it's known within the context of the Mass Effect universe, then it is not Indoctrination Theory.
Again, I agree with this guy/girl, IT has to have indoctrination. (Go figure) Simon's post was good sure, but it came off as a little arrogant to me to assume that your view of IT is the core view shared by everyone.
I disagree, and agree with Byne. The heart of IT isn't that we are being duped; I believe that's a literal interpretation. IT involves altered reality on some level. There is also duping but w/e. Doesn't really matter though.
I didn't say I disagreed with Byne. I'm just saying that we're focusing on the wrong things when explaining IT to outsiders. I approach IT from a story POV. Yes, I believe in the altered reality, but that's not what matters for the story.
What matters is how you interpret the choices. I believe that the ending sequences for control and synthesis are complete illusions, you're simply hooked into the Reaper Matrix, so to speak.
The literal interpretation (as far as I understand it) is WYSIWYG... the choices are legit, everything plays out as it is depicted, moral interpretations aside. Big difference.
Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 15 août 2012 - 02:55 .
I disagree, and agree with Byne. The heart of IT isn't that we are being duped; I believe that's a literal interpretation. IT involves altered reality on some level. There is also duping but w/e. Doesn't really matter though.
I didn't say I disagreed with Byne. I'm just saying that we're focusing on the wrong things when explaining IT to outsiders. I approach IT from a story POV. Yes, I believe in the altered reality, but that's not what matters for the story.
What matters is how you interpret the choices. I believe that the ending sequences for control and synthesis are complete illusions, you're simply hooked into the Reaper Matrix, so to speak.
The literal interpretation (as far as I understand it) is WYSIWYG... the choices are legit, everything plays out as it is depicted, moral interpretations aside. Big difference.
Again, that's the primary motive in several iterations of IT that assume the ending is at least partially real. That motive, however, is not exclusive to IT.
Indoctrination is a real phenomenon in ME. That this occurs, at least to some degree, is the very essence of indoctrination theory. Your particular view is one version of IT if it involves Reaper indoctrination. The ending being a hallucination and only occurs in Shepards head is another. In that version, the final choices do not occur, and as such make your point that the Reapers are trying to persuade Shepard into/against a particular path irrelevant.
Again, Indoctrination Theories have one underlying commonality...Indoctrination occurs, whatever the details
Ce sujet est fermé
Retour en haut
I finally feel like a real thread contributor. 
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! 
