80611 réponses à ce sujet

[DoomsdayDevice]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Again, that's the primary motive in several iterations of IT that assume the ending is at least partially real. That motive, however, is not exclusive to IT.

Indoctrination is a real phenomenon in ME. That this occurs, at least to some degree, is the very essence of indoctrination theory. Your particular view is one version of IT if it involves Reaper indoctrination. The ending being a hallucination and only occurs in Shepards head is another. In that version, the final choices do not occur, and as such make your point that the Reapers are trying to persuade Shepard into/against a particular path

Again, Indoctrination Theories have one underlying commonality...Indoctrination occurs, whatever the details

You misunderstand, I completely agree with all that. We're simply talking about what the point of IT is from a story POV.

[spotlessvoid]

I think what you fail to see here is that Reapers confusing Shepard is the core to your particular version of IT, not all versions.

This is the "Was the ending a hallucination" thread

Your theory at it's core is "Was the ending a Reaper trap"
That theory doesn't have indoctrination as a pre requisite.

Again, I stress that your version, if it includes some level of tangible indoctrination (manifesting on screen or not) is a perfectly valid iteration of IT. And in that version, making the right choice is the core to the theory. It isn't, however, the core of what indoctrination is

[spotlessvoid]

All that being said, your opinion of the ending may actually be the most likely. It shouldn't preclude this thread from debate on what the actual process indoctrination was and whether or not the ending actually occurs outside of Shepards mind

[masster blaster]

Look both of you are right, but stick to just IT.

[TJBartlemus]

Regarding Operation OLYMPUS...it claims to have taken memory from a dead reaper....why hasn't this been done before? If anything....how is this possible? We cannot get memories from dead geth cause their memories corrupt and are destroyed when they die. So how are people able to get memories from something that is infinitely more superior tech wise.

Besides, each Reaper is it's own specific AI. Sure it has many memories but I feel that each Reaper is much more close to what epsilon is in the Rv.B series. An AI that has many memories it seems it has been multiple people and can also be one person. Thus the multiple times they change from singular and plural. So an AI this advanced would certainly have a fail safe. 

Even if the Alliance got memories would it do any good? Reapers are just massive caches of memories and without the AI set to manage that reaper it would be impossible to separate the memories effectively. 

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 15 août 2012 - 03:24 .

[masster blaster]

TJ, one word. Indoctrination.

[BansheeOwnage]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Regarding Operation OLYMPUS...it claims to have taken memory from a dead reaper....why hasn't this been done before? If anything....how is this possible? We cannot get memories from dead geth cause their memories corrupt and are destroyed when they die. So how are people able to get memories from something that is infinitely more superior tech wise.

Tali managed to; it's probably something similar. Hell, it kind of sounded like it was their plan to disable it and remove it's core.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 15 août 2012 - 03:24 .

[spotlessvoid]

And no, I think I understand clearly. You are suggesting the focus shouldn't be on the hallucination aspects, but rather the narrative impact. I humbly disagree. This thread, by name, has that as it's primary focus. In practice it has been a relatively open discourse on all versions. It seemed to me there was an attempt at consensus building to guide the general view of IT in your particular theory's direction, with the underlying assumption being that the details of what and how things occurred being secondary to what the narrative impact is. To me, that is only true to your version. I still think the full blown hallucination is radically different in it's impact on the narrative, and therefore trying to solve what does anddoesn't actually occur is THE primary focus of Indoctrination Theory

[FreddyCast]

Wait a minute, didn't everyone say it was impossible to win this operation. How did we win, if all the calculations said we'd lose.

[masster blaster]

Look I alreay said your both right. Yet let's wait for Leviathan to come out okay. Also Banshee Tali barly managed to, and they created the geth, I am sure, they know how to managed to salavge the geths memorys.

[plfranke]

I looked at the numbers and I think I'll go out on a limb and say something big is getting ready to go down, no way we won that.

[BansheeOwnage]

FreddyCast wrote...

Wait a minute, didn't everyone say it was impossible to win this operation. How did we win, if all the calculations said we'd lose.

Because we're Shepard's spirit; we dared to achieve the impossible!

[BansheeOwnage]

masster blaster wrote...

Look I alreay said your both right. Yet let's wait for Leviathan to come out okay. Also Banshee Tali barly managed to, and they created the geth, I am sure, they know how to managed to salavge the geths memorys.

Yeah, I don't know. Reaper trap?

[plfranke]

And masster would you just let those people be. You're starting to get like byne when he goes mom mode on people.

[FreddyCast]

I love it when a middle man arrives to settle the matter. When two exremes cannot agree, there comes a courageous person to offer the middle solution, just right and balanced,

[FreddyCast]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

Wait a minute, didn't everyone say it was impossible to win this operation. How did we win, if all the calculations said we'd lose.

Because we're Shepard's spirit; we dared to achieve the impossible!

AAAAAHHHHH, you got me.

[masster blaster]

Plfranke. The big thing that is about to go down, is Shepard going to Thessia, because if you talk to Anderson before you go to talk to the Asari councilor, then Anderson will say something big is happening, in London, and the reason we one, is because MP. Is Biowares story.

Also the message that Hackett says, is the missing link that takes place during Thessia, while Shepard goes to get the Catalyst on Thessia.

[BansheeOwnage]

FreddyCast wrote...

I love it when a middle man arrives to settle the matter. When two exremes cannot agree, there comes a courageous person to offer the middle solution, just right and balanced,

Yeah, sometimes when you've been debating for a while you just need to stop before people get pissed off and start hating each other. (If HereticHanar would come here less the effect would be the same). So no one get angry with Byne or MB or whoever has the will to act. Sometimes someone needs to yell
"SHUT UP!"

[TJBartlemus]

FreddyCast wrote...

Wait a minute, didn't everyone say it was impossible to win this operation. How did we win, if all the calculations said we'd lose.

I have no idea. There was even a thread that did the math and said that at the pace we were going we were failing. So unless the majority of MP players played Sunday and kicked it into gear or BioWare skewed the results.

My opinion is that BioWare skewed the results either in the end or when they updated us during the operation. There is no way we could of done it from the details we knew on Saterday. But you never know. Maybe we really did accomplish the operation. 

[Simon_Says]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

No, the point is that, yes, Shepard may be hallucinating/dreaming, but what makes IT indoctrination is that the Reapers are persuading you to make the wrong choice. That is the crux of it, the heart of the story. Not what the location of the breath scene is, that's just a technicality.

What makes the synthesis/control choices obviously wrong (and connects them with indoctrination) is that they represent the very things the two main villains wanted, Saren & TIM respectively. Both of these guys were clearly indoctrinated. That should tell you enough about the options presented to you.

The heart of IT is where the heart of the story is at. The point of the story is not that the villains were right and Shepard was wrong all along. Well, that is the point in the literal interpretation.

This is exactly what I/we are saying.

Look, what is indoctrination? Again, focus not on its surface features and try to drive to the core. More than nanotechnological infection, psychological conditioning, subliminal manipulation, etc. Indoctrination is simply this: having your motives and actions aligned to the reapers' agenda. We're all saying that the reapers are persuading you to believe or act in a way that would be beneficial to them. No infrasound or nanites required, that's indoctrination plain and simple.

Indoctrination can be as complex as hijacking a subject's nervous system or rewriting their entire psyche. But it can be simple as convincing someone of something that simply isn't true. Remember when people once said that players who supported Control or Synthesis were indoctrinated? I doubt they were subjected to mental probing or nanoviral infection. No, one conversation and they abandon the goal they spent three games fighting towards.

I know I did. I fell for it hook, line and sinker first time through. After being weakened from fatigue and emotional outrage I marched right into the beam of light like a complete sucker.

All it took was 10 minutes. I wasn't made to do something evil. I wanted to do it.

I believed. I acted. I was indoctrinated. No spooky action involved.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 15 août 2012 - 03:47 .

[BansheeOwnage]

I am proud to say that after playing an ME marathon (having never played it before) I chose destroy!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 15 août 2012 - 03:43 .

[spotlessvoid]

No offense Master Blaster, but I don't need you telling me to drop the issue. It is very IT related, and given your tendency of shamelessly self bumping your own massive walls of text, repeatedly, you're in no position to criticize. Just because it's not important to you doesn't mean it isn't a valid topic of discussion. And no, we can't both be right, so chill with the dismissive patronizing.

[TJBartlemus]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I am proud to say that after playing an ME marathon (having never played it before) I chose destroy!

Wait. You never played ME series before or have you never played them consecutively one after another without breaks? 

PS. I think you cheated. You already know a lot of the details already. Of course you chose Destroy. 

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 15 août 2012 - 03:49 .

[plfranke]

spotlessvoid wrote...

No offense Master Blaster, but I don't need you telling me to drop the issue. It is very IT related, and given your tendency of shamelessly self bumping your own massive walls of text, repeatedly, you're in no position to criticize. Just because it's not important to you doesn't mean it isn't a valid topic of discussion. And no, we can't both be right, so chill with the dismissive patronizing.

I liked how you said no offense and then proceeded to pound him into the ground

[Hrothdane]

Simon_Says wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

No, the point is that, yes, Shepard may be hallucinating/dreaming, but what makes IT indoctrination is that the Reapers are persuading you to make the wrong choice. That is the crux of it, the heart of the story. Not what the location of the breath scene is, that's just a technicality.

What makes the synthesis/control choices obviously wrong (and connects them with indoctrination) is that they represent the very things the two main villains wanted, Saren & TIM respectively. Both of these guys were clearly indoctrinated. That should tell you enough about the options presented to you.

The heart of IT is where the heart of the story is at. The point of the story is not that the villains were right and Shepard was wrong all along. Well, that is the point in the literal interpretation.

This is exactly what I/we are saying.

Look, what is indoctrination? Again, focus not on its surface features and try to drive to the core. More than nanotechnological infection, psychological conditioning, subliminal manipulation, etc. Indoctrination is simply this: having your motives and actions aligned to the reapers' agenda. We're all saying that the reapers are persuading you to believe or act in a way that would be beneficial to them. No infrasound or nanites required, that's indoctrination plain and simple.

Indoctrination can be as complex as hijacking a subject's nervous system or rewriting their entire psyche. But it can be simple as convincing someone of something that simply isn't true. Remember when people once said that players who supported Control or Synthesis were indoctrinated? I doubt they were subjected to mental probing or nanoviral infection. No, one conversation and they abandon the goal they spent three games fighting towards.

I know I did. I fell for it hook, line and sinker first time through. After being weakened from fatigue and emotional outrage I marched right into the beam of light like a complete sucker.

All it took was 10 minutes. I wasn't made to do something evil. I wanted to do it.

I believed. I acted. I was indoctrinated. No spooky action involved.

Well said. I find the meta player indoctrination possibly the most fascinating implication of IT.