80611 réponses à ce sujet

[masster blaster]

Do what ever you all want. I was just trying to calm you the both down. And yes you can be both right because neither can prove it other wise. Just as we can't prove Bioware intended IT, since others say where is your proof of this.

[spotlessvoid]

Simon:
Mass Effect Universe has a phenomenon called indoctrination, yes? To claim that whether or not this occurred as not being important is just wrong, in my opinion. Your argument is semantic. Can fooling someone, in the real world be called indoctrination? Sure. Is that the definition of the word indoctrination within the ME universe? No. It specially refers to a physical act that occurs. That act is THE core of indoctrination theory.

[spotlessvoid]

MB you're using false logic:
reductio ad absurdum

Since IT can't be proven conclusively, nothing can. Bogus

[masster blaster]

I am saying we can't say Bioware intended IT at all, we only can speculate, and there are others that can say other wise. Bottem line is until Bioware says IT is right or wrong. Then it's all speculations, until they say other wise.

[Simon_Says]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Simon:
Mass Effect Universe has a phenomenon called indoctrination, yes? To claim that whether or not this occurred as not being important is just wrong, in my opinion. Your argument is semantic. Can fooling someone, in the real world be called indoctrination? Sure. Is that the definition of the word indoctrination within the ME universe? No. It specially refers to a physical act that occurs. That act is THE core of indoctrination theory.

*sigh*

I said...

Indoctrination is simply this: having your motives and actions aligned to the reapers' agenda.

There are processes, yes. Many different ones. That should actually be a hint that they're all different manifestations of a single common psychological phenomenon.

For a comparison, you can shoot, stab or bludgeon. They're all forms of murder, which is at its core the act of taking another person's life.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 15 août 2012 - 04:00 .

[spotlessvoid]

Hrothdane

Yes, Simon may very likely hold the correct, Bioware intended view. However, that is not the crux of the post. What he is implying is that this version is correct, and that discussing other variations is not essential to IT. I vehemently disagree. Those discussions, to me, are the core of IT.

[Simon_Says]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Hrothdane

Yes, Simon may very likely hold the correct, Bioware intended view. However, that is not the crux of the post. What he is implying is that this version is correct, and that discussing other variations is not essential to IT. I vehemently disagree. Those discussions, to me, are the core of IT.

Wha-? I never said that!

I was responding to Heretic Hanar who kept saying that a dream sequence was the core idea of Indoctrination Theory, when it isn't. Of course discuss variations! Where the hell would we be if we weren't examining them?!

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't lose sight of the basics! So often this forum and its contributors get caught up in minutae and start confusing shadows for real things.

[ZerebusPrime]

FreddyCast wrote...

Wait a minute, didn't everyone say it was impossible to win this operation. How did we win, if all the calculations said we'd lose.

The calculations were given to us at 11PM EST or so on Saturday night.  They were made some before that.  The peak hours for Saturday multiplayer were still in session for everything west of the Eastern Timezone, with the West Coast likely making up a large block of players.  Factor in Hawaii and European players as the planet goes 'round and what you should find is that the numbers given to us weren't necessarily halfway point numbers except to a strictly East Coast view of things. 

........is what I'd tell BioWare to say in explaining how the numbers were fudged upwards. 

[masster blaster]

But Prime that would be a big no no on Bioware, unless they covering up their work, Like our IT questionss, and the endings it's self.

[spotlessvoid]

Simon.....
Under the "hallucination" versions of IT, the end is not what it seems. That completely changes the meaning of what transpires, making your debate on what the agenda is significantly altered. What I'm responding to is the apparent attempt to sideline the debate on what does actually occur, which fundamentally alters how one even begins to approach the narrative impact. One view holds that the final choice has galaxy wide ranging consequences, and the other view holds that that we haven't even reached the end. How you can claim that trying to resolve that question isnt at the very heart of what IT means is what I disagree with

[BansheeOwnage]

TJBartlemus wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I am proud to say that after playing an ME marathon (having never played it before) I chose destroy!

Wait. You never played ME series before or have you never played them consecutively one after another without breaks? 

PS. I think you cheated. You already know a lot of the details already. Of course you chose Destroy. 

I'll be more clear sorry. Until the ME3 demo, I had never played ME, although I had heard of it. The demo was pretty awesome, so being the all out kind of person that I am, bought ME1 and 2, and played them fairly quicky just before ME3 came out (I actually started ME2 on ME3's release day.) I'm just saying that I was very new the the series, but still managed to pick destroy.

[spotlessvoid]

MB, that want your argument, that was the metaphor you used to support your argument

[Simon_Says]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Simon.....
Under the "hallucination" versions of IT, the end is not what it seems. That completely changes the meaning of what transpires, making your debate on what the agenda is significantly altered. What I'm responding to is the apparent attempt to sideline the debate on what does actually occur, which fundamentally alters how one even begins to approach the narrative impact. One view holds that the final choice has galaxy wide ranging consequences, and the other view holds that that we haven't even reached the end. How you can claim that trying to resolve that question isnt at the very heart of what IT means is what I disagree with

What is this I don't even.

No seriously, Spotless, did you pay any attention to what I said? Are you even paying attention to what you said? Do you truly understand?

[BansheeOwnage]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

Wait a minute, didn't everyone say it was impossible to win this operation. How did we win, if all the calculations said we'd lose.

The calculations were given to us at 11PM EST or so on Saturday night.  They were made some before that.  The peak hours for Saturday multiplayer were still in session for everything west of the Eastern Timezone, with the West Coast likely making up a large block of players.  Factor in Hawaii and European players as the planet goes 'round and what you should find is that the numbers given to us weren't necessarily halfway point numbers except to a strictly East Coast view of things. 

........is what I'd tell BioWare to say in explaining how the numbers were fudged upwards. 

Something like that, and that the numbers would be posted after they were achieved so there would be some lag; we would have a higher percentage done at the time of posting etc. If that is true, we could've probably pulled it off legitimately.

[BansheeOwnage]

@Spotless and Simon, you are both making good points, but if I were you, I'd either drop it (for now at least) or continue with PMs. Just my 2 cents.

[Hrothdane]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

Wait a minute, didn't everyone say it was impossible to win this operation. How did we win, if all the calculations said we'd lose.

The calculations were given to us at 11PM EST or so on Saturday night.  They were made some before that.  The peak hours for Saturday multiplayer were still in session for everything west of the Eastern Timezone, with the West Coast likely making up a large block of players.  Factor in Hawaii and European players as the planet goes 'round and what you should find is that the numbers given to us weren't necessarily halfway point numbers except to a strictly East Coast view of things. 

........is what I'd tell BioWare to say in explaining how the numbers were fudged upwards. 

Something like that, and that the numbers would be posted after they were achieved so there would be some lag; we would have a higher percentage done at the time of posting etc. If that is true, we could've probably pulled it off legitimately.

Someone in the multiplayer forums suggested they may have added platinum matches to the total after adjusting for equivalent difficulty. Say 1 platinum equals 2 gold or 4 silver or 8 bronze. I still think with the time adjustment we might have pulled it off legitimately as well, though.

[BansheeOwnage]

magnetite wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I am saying we can't say Bioware intended IT at all, we only can speculate, and there are others that can say other wise. Bottem line is until Bioware says IT is right or wrong. Then it's all speculations, until they say other wise.

Just because Bioware hasn't admitted it, doesn't make it true or false. Everyone has their own interpretation on what happened. If some guy from the 1800s believed that it's everyone for themselves, that's his interpretation. Other people may think differently. Same thing here.

If we stop thinking for ourselves and just believe whatever Bioware tells us, then we are indoctrinated. They actually pulled off an amazing feat there.

For unbolded: I think that actually is what MB said, but it can be hard to tell sometimes.
For bolded: Well we do have to take a lot of what BW says seriously, but yeah, it was truly an amazing feat. Here's how I see it: Whether intentionally or not, BW has in fact indoctrinated much of the playerbase. The fun thing about that is you can't really argue it, because said portion of the playerbase aligned themselves with the reapers willingly. If BW didn't intend this, they indoctrinated themselves, much like what the reapers may have done. (I think Simon actually came up with a theory that the reapers are indoctrinated on his own, but so did I )

[FreddyCast]

NOBODY MOVE

I dropped my balls.
What kind of balls are they, you say?
I.....Don't.....Know
All I know is that they are round, fragile, and MINE!!!

[Simon_Says]

@Banshee, good advice, which I'll be heeding.

If Spotless or I come to any conclusion I think we'll let you know.

It's late here, and I'd rather debate with a clear head. Spotless, I'll PM you tomorrow after I figure out exactly what your points are because, honestly, to me it looks like you've misinterpreted mine.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 15 août 2012 - 04:28 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Hrothdane wrote...

Someone in the multiplayer forums suggested they may have added platinum matches to the total after adjusting for equivalent difficulty. Say 1 platinum equals 2 gold or 4 silver or 8 bronze. I still think with the time adjustment we might have pulled it off legitimately as well, though.

Hey Hrothdane, always nice to see you here.  Interesting point about platinum games.
Edit: Also interesting, those numbers, and the operation numbers for that matter, all have roughly the same ratio of credits as equivalent difficulty/required completions. (I suck at explaining things :/)

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 15 août 2012 - 04:32 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

@Freddy

Good song. Weird ... thing to say about it though. Funny. But weird.

[Arashi08]

Maybe the Reaper memory core is a prelude to Leviathan. Maybe the memory core is what allowed The Alliance to find out about it? This is a very slim chance I know, since the DLC can likely be done at anytime and it almost points to Leviathan being a Reaper (not necessarily but people may draw that conclusion.)

Sry if this has been brought up before, but I thought I'd add something new to the speculation...unless it has been brought up already of course lol.

[spotlessvoid]

Oh I understand plenty well.

You assert that details (minutia) are secondary. I read your post. You say that IT is fundamentally a test of Shepards character and ability to make the right choice in the face of tremendous press from Reaper influence I say that the narrative impact is 100% reliant on whether our not the ending actually occurs as shown. Therefore, figuring out the details is a necessity for understanding the actual impact andl meaning behind the decision you so self assuredly claim is what IT actually is.

I say IT is the minutia. You claim the overall narrative that the Reapers are trying to fool Shepard is IT. I think you can't begin to comprehend what that narrative is until you settle on a particular interpretation. Therefore, figuring out the details is still the primary objective, and yes, if it's called IT it must include indoctrination as it's starting point. Trying to determine the extent to which that happens is the core of IT.

[spotlessvoid]

@ Simon out ofrespect for the considerable effort you have put into IT since the early days , I will agree to refrain any further debate. No hard feelings